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Fire Synergies Help please

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Thyiad, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

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    Fire Synergies Help please

    Hi guys and gals, fancy taking pity on a poor person whose braincell is leaking out of their ear?

    This pertains to an UNTWINKED VANILLA Metorb. Yes, I have read the sticky in the Sorcy FAQ, thank you, and I am following it. I am quite happy with the cold tree. It's idiot proof: max FO and 17 after +skills to Mastery. Got it.

    My problem is with the fire tree.

    I have studied this thread about masteries and read through Sasja's Guide thoroughly in this thread, and been playing with a couple of skill calcs, however, I could really do with some help.

    I am fairly sure I want hard points placed in Fire Bolt 9 or 10 less than displayed Fire Mastery skills.

    I also thought I needed:
    • hard points in Fire Ball to be 10 or 11 more than displayed Fire Mastery skills and
    • displayed Fire Mastery skills to be 2 or 3 more than displayed Meteor
    Now my end-game gear will give me a minimum of +4 to cold skills and a minimum of +5 to fire skills. I have some very specific gear in mind, but those are the minimum.

    I am looking to use this girl in p8 Baal runs. I want to maximize damage; particularly of Fire Ball because I want to hit a very high breakpoint (you know how much I like to spam :rolleyes:).

    Code:
    Skill             Hard Points/Displayed  Hard/Displayed    Hard/Displayed
    
    Fire Bolt                   1/6             2/7                5/10   
    Fire Ball                  15/20           17/22              20/25        
    Meteor                      3/8             5/10              12/17
    Fire Mastery                5/10            7/12              10/15
    
    Can wizards of the calculator please confirm that I have got this right, or be kind enough to lead me through where I have gone wrong?

    Many thanks. Thyiad

    Edit: Yes Frosty, I know you didn't much of a response, but I was fluttering my EU eyelashes and looking as cute as possible while typing this up. I thought it might help ..:wink2:

    I have been playing with the calculator but frankly I am not seeing a huge amount of difference which makes me think I am missing something.

    *Looks around* Gib ansir plz *shakes forum members by the collar*
     
  2. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    Now you're asking for it..... you saw the (lack of) responses to my other thread. :rolleyes:

    For max FBall damage, the sum of the hard points in FireBall synergies (i.e. FireBolt and Meteor) has to be 10-11 greater than the displayed FM slvl. This will be at the significant expense of Meteor's damage.

    The alternative is to strike a balance between optimum FBall and Meteor damage, which usually requires fewer points in FireBolt, and those points re-directed into FM.

    The only way to appreciate this fine balance is to manually add one point and subtract another point between FBolt and FM, and note the difference in damage output between the two. A calculator will allow you to do this.
     
  3. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    I think it's going to take more than your pretty EU eyelashes to get this apathetic lot excited.
    .
    .
    .
    FREEEEEEE S0JsssssxxxxxXXxxx!!!!111111
    That should work...:rolleyes:

    Anyway, I think this can only work if you know to the minute detail all the gear, skillers, skill distribuiton, etc that your Meteorb is going to have end-game. Even the addition of +1 to all skills later on will totally screw up your calculations.

    To that end, if you can tell me exactly what end-game gear you will sport, with skillers, skill distribution, (the possibility of a CtA later on), +skills, etc (basically everything she is going to have up to and including the kitchen sink), I should be able to work out for you either:

    1. Max FBall damage, if that is what you want (but consider that Meteor will lose a few thousand damage as a result).

    2. An optimum balance between FBall and Meteor, without one sacrificing too much for the other.
     
  4. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

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    Well, my plan was ambitious and would have taken quite a while to do but the end game gear I was aiming for is:
    20fcr tiara | arachnid mesh | magefists | any boots with resists | skin viper magi | wizardspike (cta on switch) | spirit shield | 15% fcr ammy | 2xrings fcr

    Now who is paying attention and spotted the mistake I made? Very good have a cookie and slap with a wet fish. BUT if I use Lidless Wall I can still hit the 200 breakpoint. Ok I lose one skill point but I wasn't counting on carrying any skillers, guess during my major MF runs, I will have to find one of each.

    Indeed, but that's as far as I go. :lipsrsealed:
     
  5. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    Helm: 20% FCR tiara (assuming no +skills)
    Ammy: 15% FCR (assuming no + skills)
    Weapon: 50% FCR Wizzy
    Switch: CtA
    Armour: Vipermagi 30% FCR +1 all skills
    Shield: Lidless Wall 20% FCR +1 all skills
    Gloves: Magefist 20% FCR +1 fire skills
    Rings: 2x 10% FCR
    Belt: Arachnid Mesh 20% FCR +1 all skills
    Boots: whatever

    Total FCR = 195%
    Total + all skills = 3
    Total + fire skills = 1

    I'm afraid that you are still short of 5% FCR to reach 200%. The only way I see to get to 200% is to use a 20% FCR ammy. Crafting it could be difficult... you'll have to roll a 10% FCR mod as well as roll a perfect 10% FCR (from the fixed mod of 5-10%). Trading for it may be easier if all you need is 20% FCR, but do remember that if you get a +2 sorc skills 20% FCR ammy in the future, that will screw up your max FBall damage.

    You'll need to revise your gear and post again. Also, can you confirm that you won't be using any skillers at all? I think skillers are a good idea. They are not too expensive to trade for (or even roll). As an example, an inventory full of 7% MF SC's is overkill if you ask me.

    Edit: Total + all skills = 4 (when under the influence of CtA's Battle Command)
     
  6. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, I haven't read through this all yet - too tired for now. Check out this thread if you haven't already. It should help with synergies + mastery.

    http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=485416

    I'll study this somemore tomorrow. Probably a good thing you PM'd me. I just about never venture into the SPF. It kinda scares me in here *shudders*
     
  7. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Ok, I think I got it. 200% FCR Meteorb. Pretty ambitious, not exactly "UNTWINKED VANILLA Metorb" either :grin:

    It looks like frostburn is dead on for the synergies+mastery thing. Keep in mind that any facets you end up using will throw this of as well. Hitting the perfect numbers is nice, but not really necessary. If you're off by 1 or 2 skill points, then your damage will only suffer by a few hundred points. I think the best compromise is to figure out what the optimum mix is for fireball damage (10-11 synergy points above FM slvl), then figure out what the best mix is for the most fireball+meteor damage (its about 5 synergy points above FM slvl if I recall). So long as you're somewhere in between these two, you'll be pretty good. You'll only loose a few hundred off both your fireball and meteor, and that's better than loosing about 1000 off of either one.

    I'd recommend Spirit over Lidless (35% FCR vs 20% FCR). It's easier to hit the 200% FCR and maybe even save a ring slot if you can get a 15% or higher FCR amy. Lidless is only possible with a perfect 20% FCR amy, and its not as good as spirit anyway (IMHO).

    I kinda have to wonder if its worth it to hit the 200% FCR breakpoint with a meteorb anyway. In terms of damage per second, you'll loose out on a bunch. Not just the +skills, but there's -enemy fire resistance and +cold skill damage on tals orb. That really helps your damage against monsters with resistance.

    Here it comes...

    Full Tal = 50% FCR
    Perfect Spirit = 35% FCR
    Magefists = 20% FCR
    total = 105% FCR

    This leaves both your ring slots open (SOJ's or Nagels are probably prefered). You'll have lots of resists, skills, MF, life, mana and damage. Unbeatable combination for the meteorb. I think about the only reason to go for 200% FCR is for PvP. Meterob will kinda suck there reguardless of what you do. 200% FCR will get some darn quick fireballs and teleport, but you're going to loose out on a bunch of damage, resists, MF and life/mana. These are typically the reason why people build meteorbs in the first place.
     
  8. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

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    Thank you both for the responses :flowers: *looks hard at the other SPF members*

    Basically I have started an untwinked vanilla meteorb with the intention of using her to rush vanilla players and to do some vanilla MF. This character is a long term goal and I don't expect to find the gear for her easily or quickly. But I wanted to have an overall plan.

    My original thought was to go for the standard meteorb but when I saw the 200%fcr pvp char I thought why not; an added spice to keep my interest. She won't be pvp but you have to admit spamming balls at 200fcr is going to be very impressive (speaking of spamming balls look left *cough post count cough*).

    Back OT: I have worked out how to hit the fcr. It's the gear listed in post#4/#5 above; and I fully understand the difficulty with a 20%fcr ammy. It'll be a challenge. Yes I know Spirit would be better than Lidless but Spirit is RWM and this is vanilla single player. (Thanks Frostburn for helping me count up to 200, I ran out of fingers.)

    I am aware of the MageChick mantra about tals, spirit and magefists; it's something my tri-elementalist is happy with. And I loathe only having 63% fcr; for me 105% is the minimum.

    It is the synergies/masteries thing that is still confusing me.

    Because of the 200 fcr I thought a heafty quick moving fireball would be better than slow meteor. But I am willing to accept a balance of damage between the two. Probably a wise move as it may take a while to get that gear. But knowing what that gear will be helps the build. The Wizzy and the Viper will take care of a lot of the resist issues.

    If I under stand you correctly MC, being a few points out with the skill will not be a disaster; that really appeals to me. I might find a skiller or four, I might not.

    What I cannot get my head around is the x (hard points) above y (displayed). I have been playing with the calculators and just when I think I have cracked it, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't want to throw my hands up in the air and say oh let's just max meteor fireball and fire mastery in that order because there might be a way of getting better damage.

    In my first post I listed what I thought were the interactions but re-reading the two threads I specified and the one provided by MC (which I had read but obviously not understood), I am still confused.

    Are you now saying that the TOTAL hard points placed into ALL of the synergies must be above/below the DISPLAYED level of the Mastery?


    IE:

    Code:
    Skill to max      Total hard points in skills    Above/below displayed mastery
    Firebolt          Fireball, Meteor                +11/+12         
    Fireball          Firebolt, Meteor                +10/+11
    Meteor            Firebolt, Fireball, Inferno      -2/-3
    
    I tried this using the following: skill to max is fireball in the first part and meteor in the second.
    Code:
    Skill    Hard/displayed points  Damaage
    Bolt        9/14                183
    *Ball       10/15               713
    Meteor      1/6                 846
    Mastery     5/10                
       
    Bolt        4/9                 188
    Ball        7/12                881
    *Meteor     7/12                2027
    Mastery     20/25    
    
    Unless I am being incredibly dim - and that is a possibility I am willing to accept - that just seems to prove that Mastery increases damage overall.

    I guess all I am really asking is to keep a good balance of both skills (Ball and Meteor) what proportion should I add points to Ball, Meteor and Mastery? This sorcy is going to get to a very high level to be able to achieve the gear, so I am not concerned about allocating skill points up to the mid 90's if that is what it takes.

    Sorry this involves maths people, I guess it is putting some of you off responding. Hey, perhaps I should run a giveaway the prize going to whoever solves this? :evil:
     
  9. Skinny

    Skinny Banned

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    It's simple- achieving the PERFECT damage is not worth the effort. Look how much time you already dedicated to this instead of just playing your char. Do you really think that 200 damage more/less in Meteor/Fireball makes that much difference? I don't think so. Especially that you want to level your char to the mid 90's. There's no problem in changing your original skill plan if you're not happy with the damage of a particular spell. I think that's better than fiddling with math.

    Wow, I'm really elaborate:prop:
     
  10. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

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    I can fiddle with the math and play the character. It's a multi-tasking thing EUs can do. :grin:

    I am not looking for PERFECT damage. I want good damage and if you play with the skills calcs you can be looking at a couple of thousand difference. That's going to make a difference in an 8 player game. Some of those skill distributions are very different; you can't just move half a dozen or more skill points at level 85.

    At least it was a response though. :rolleyes:

    Edit: I think it is a math thing. Forum members either don't like little Thyiad or they're afraid of maths. Look at the response to the 1k FO and first druid threads. What a difference. No one wants me ....:cry:
     
  11. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    LOL!!!111:grin: Well Thyius, I guess your pretty EU eyelashes do work on simple things afterall!!!:tongue:

    I'll chat to you live soon. Maybe we can spend more time not playing our characters...:wink3:
     
  12. nex

    nex IncGamers Member

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    Yep, it's a math thing. We can kill dragons for EUs, we can do all sorts of silly things for EUs, but somewhere we have to draw a line. Math is just too much :tongue:
     
  13. Delreich

    Delreich IncGamers Member

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    The "significant expense" frosty's talking about isn't too significant, I think,
    especially considering you'll be throwing two or three balls for every meteor.

    Simple version #1 has already been stated: Keep displayed FM lvl at base bolt +(9 or 10)
    Simple version #2 assumes you'll have around +10 skills: Keep FM and bolt at same base lvl
    Both assumes maxed ball and meteor.


    For the math, assuming base damage is maxed, the bonus would be:
    MBonus = (1.23 + 0.07*Mlvl + facets) * (1 + 0.05*(20+Blvl))
    FBBonus = (1.23 + 0.07*Mlvl + facets) * (1 + 0.14*(20+Blvl))
    where Mlvl is mastery level, Blvl is base bolt level and facets is bonus from
    facets summed up (+5% = 0.05).

    Put that in a spreadsheet and observe the relatively small differences...
    no more than 10% with +10 skills, less than 20% with +5 skills.


    Oh, and math is fun! :rolleyes:
     
  14. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Oh yeah, limited runewords in SP - forgot about that one. No anni or torch either, right? I don't think I've done SP since Diablo I.

    I'll make an attempt at synergies and mastery too, but I don't think I can do it as well as PhatTrumpet has. I'll try an overview then some numbers from a skill calculator.

    Lets start plugging in some real numbers for skills and gear. I'll use the gear you're looking at, but I'll assume you can get a +2 skill, 20 FCR amy. So long as we're trying to optimize everything we may as well start with optimal gear. That will look something like this:

    Helm: +2 skills, 20% FCR tiara
    Ammy: +2 skils, 20% FCR
    Weapon: 50% FCR Wizzy
    Switch: CtA
    Amour: Vipermagi 30% FCR +1 all skills
    Shield: Lidless Wall 20% FCR +1 all skills
    Gloves: Magefist 20% FCR +1 fire skills
    Rings: 2x 10% FCR
    Belt: Arachnid Mesh 20% FCR +1 all skills
    Boots: whatever

    Total FCR = 200%
    Total + all skills = 7
    Total + fire skills = 8

    There are 110 skill points possible at level 99.

    You have to spend 3 points in the lightning tree (static, telekinesis as a prereq and teleport).

    In the cold tree there are 5 prereq's for frozen orb. You'll also put 20 points into frozen orb. You could get up to +7 to the cold tree so that means 10 hard points invested in cold mastery for a total of 35 skill points in the cold tree.

    On fire side it does start getting tricky. There are 4 prereq's for fireball and metoer (counting firebolt as only a prereq for now) and 1 point in warmth is pretty much required. You'll also max fireball and meteor (they synergize each other and both can be used as a main skill - trust me on this for now). We'll also start with 1 point in fire mastery, just to get that initial 30% boost. That's 46 points total in the fire tree so far.

    So before we really start balancing firebolt vs. fire mastery we have a total of 84 skill points spent. In a perfect world we'd have 26 more skill points to spend (at level 99), but that's still not enough to max both firebolt and fire mastery.

    Trying to max damage you end up with a multi-variable equation. Lets start by walking through the max fireball (FB) damage equation from sort of an intuitive angle. The more points we put into firemastery, the more damage our fireball does - easy enough so far. The more points we put into fireball synergies (meteor and firebolt) the more fireball damage goes up as well. And of course the more points into fireball, the more damage it does. In a perfect world we'd just max everything and not worry about it, but we just don't have that many skill points. We also already have fireball and meteor maxed out. We also know what our +fire skills total will be, so we really only have to worry about 2 aspects of this equation, FM and Fbolt. This will kinda simplify everything.

    So far we have 21 fireball synergy points (20 from meteor and 1 from Fbolt, the +to skill gear doesn't matter for this). We also have an slvl FM of 9 (1 hard point, 8 from equipment). Our goal was "FireBall synergies (i.e. FireBolt and Meteor) has to be 10-11 greater than the displayed FM slvl." Right now we are 12 point greater (21-9).

    From here, this gets to be part art, part math. Say you did't get the +2 skills on your ammy or circlet. (Not counting that you would have to put more points into cold mastery.) Your FM slvl would be 4 points lower, but the FB synergies would still be at 21. A difference of 16 (21-5). So just as Frostburn said, this is all very item dependant.

    I hope you're with me up up to the FM slvl and FB synergy point and how we calculate the arithmatic difference between them. If I lost you anywhere before this, let me know.

    At this point we'll need to break out some math. Here's the formula for spell damage.

    [final damage] = [base spell damage] * [total synergy bonus] * [total mastery and gear bonus]

    The final damage term is obviously what we’re trying to maximize here. Furthermore, because we’ve assumed that the skill itself is already maxed out, the base damage term is actually a constant and can be eliminated from the equation. We also don't have any gear bonus (that would be +% fire damge from something like eschuta or a facet.) Thus, the way to maximize the final damage term is to maximize the product of total synergy bonus and total mastery.

    Depending on your math skills, theres a few ways to think about this. I've been out of college for years now, so a good part of that calc is starting to fade away. I'm also kinda visual. I think of it as trying to maximize the area under two different slopes.

    It's not this simple, but the concept is kinda like this. Remember the story problems about a farmer trying to make a fence that has the most interior space for his animals. (I'm sure there's variations, but this one sticks in my mind.) The farmer only has so many pieces of fence, lets say 20. Lets also say each piece is 1 meter long (1 yard if you prefer English measurements). He can put 9 on each side, and 1 piece on each end. something like this.
    Code:
     - - - - - - - - -
    |                  |
     - - - - - - - - -
    But then he ends with only 9 x 1 = 9 sq meters of internal area. If instead he makes it with 5 sections on each side and end. something like this.
    Code:
     - - - - -
    |          |
    |          |
    |          |
    |          |
    |          |
     - - - - - 
    This way he ends up with 5 x 5 = 25 sq meters of internal area.

    You optimize two products by keeping them relatively close to each other. We'll use this principle when it comes to multiplying synergy damage and mastery damage. We’ve simplified the equation down to:

    [final damage] = [base spell damage] * [total synergy modifier] * [total mastery modifier]
    or,
    = [base spell damage] * [1 + (X / 100)] * [1 + (Y / 100)]

    Now for synergies we get 14% for each level and for mastery we get 7% for each level. The base spell damage for a level 20 fireball with +8 to fire skill is: 326 - 361 (ø343.5) That would make the formula something like this:

    = [343.5] * [1 + (X * 14%)] * [1 + (Y * 7%)]

    But that neglects the fact that the first point into FM starts you at 30%, not 7%. So we have to make it something like this.

    = [343.5] * [1+(X* 14%)] * [1 + (30% + (Y-1) * 7%)]

    Lets make sure this work so far. We have 21 points in synergy and 9 point in mastery so:

    = [343.5] * [1+(21* 14%)] * [1 + (30% + (9-1) * 7%)]
    = [343.5] * [1 + 2.94] * [1 + (30% + (8 * 7%))]
    = [343.5] * [1 + 2.94] * [1 + (.30 + .56)]
    = [343.5] * [3.94] * [1.86]
    = 2517.3054

    The skill calculator says:
    Fire damage: 2392 - 2649 (ø2520.5)

    I’m within a few points, so unless someone sees a math error somewhere, I’m gonna call this close enough.

    Q: wait, I thought he said we should keep the products close to each other. He has the synergy mod about twice as high as the mastery mod. And this is almost an optimized balance to start with. (12 point difference instead of 10 or 11)
    A: well, the synergy mod is increasing at 2x the rate of the mastery mod 14% vs. 7%. So yeah, we want the synergy % to be greater than the rate of the mastery %, but we can’t totally forget mastery. Going back to the fence problem above. It would be kinda like the farmer using two different sized pieces of fence. If he could buy fences for the sides that were twice as long as the pieces he had to use for the top and bottom, but he was still limited to 20 pieces of fence. The highest internal area would come from a rectangle that was longer than it is wide. Don’t worry, I won’t walk you through another story problem.

    OK, time to start optimizing. Lets assume level 90 (101 total skill points or 17 points to spend after the 84 we already spent) then you'll see that there's a simple pattern for any extra points you get for leveling after that. We also want the FB synergies to be 10 or 11 higher than the FM slvl. So lets put 8 points into FB synergies (firebolt) and 9 into FM.

    Firebolt: 9
    Fireball: 20
    Meteor 20
    FM: 10
    with +8 from gear
    for a difference of 29 (FB synergies) – 18 (FM slvl) = 11

    Skill calculator says:
    Fireball:
    Fire damage: 4113 - 4554 (ø4334)
    [Synergy] Fire Bolt: +126% Fire damage (14% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Meteor: +280% Fire damage (14% / Lvl)
    [Mastery] Fire damage: +149%

    Meteor:
    Fire damage: 9230 - 9681 (ø9455.5)
    Fire damage per second: 962 - 1024(ø 993)
    Fire length: 17.4 Seconds
    [Synergy] Fire Bolt: +45% Fire damage (5% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Fire Ball: +100% Fire damage (5% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Inferno: +3% Fire damage per second (3% / Lvl)
    [Mastery] Fire damage: +149%

    Say we didn’t know about the whole 10-11 point difference thing and put all those points into FM.

    Firebolt: 1
    Fireball: 20
    Meteor 20
    FM: 18
    with +8 from gear
    for a difference of 21 (FB synergies) – 26 (FM slvl) = -5

    Fireball:
    Fire damage: 3923 - 4344 (ø4133.5)
    [Synergy] Fire Bolt: +14% Fire damage (14% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Meteor: +280% Fire damage (14% / Lvl)
    [Mastery] Fire damage: +205%

    Meteor:
    Fire damage: 9460 - 9922 (ø9691)
    Fire damage per second: 1178 - 1254(ø 1216)
    Fire lenght: 17.4 Seconds
    [Synergy] Fire Bolt: +5% Fire damage (5% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Fire Ball: +100% Fire damage (5% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Inferno: +3% Fire damage per second (3% / Lvl)
    [Mastery] Fire damage: +205%

    Our Fireball went down about 200 points and our Meteor went up about 240 points. Not perfect, but workable, arguably better if you like Meteor over Fireball. Let’s see what happens if we put all the points into Fbolt instead of FM.

    Firebolt: 18
    Fireball: 20
    Meteor 20
    FM: 1
    with +8 from gear
    for a difference of 38 (FB synergies) – 9 (FM slvl) = 29

    Fireball:
    Fire damage: 3838 - 4249 (ø4043.5)
    [Synergy] Fire Bolt: +252% Fire damage (14% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Meteor: +280% Fire damage (14% / Lvl)
    [Mastery] Fire damage: +86%

    Meteor:
    Fire damage: 8161 - 8560 (ø8360.5)
    Fire damage per second: 718 - 764(ø 741)
    Fire lenght: 17.4 Seconds
    [Synergy] Fire Bolt: +90% Fire damage (5% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Fire Ball: +100% Fire damage (5% / Lvl)
    [Synergy] Inferno: +3% Fire damage per second (3% / Lvl)
    [Mastery] Fire damage: +86%

    No matter which of the above examples you compare this to, damage goes down.
    Q: I thought damage would go up because we’re getting more synergy bonus (14%), and we only some mastery bonus (7%). Doesn’t the extra 14% mods make up for the lack of 7% mods?
    A: No, remember we’re trying to maximize the product of two numbers. The best way to maximize the product of two numbers is to keep them somewhat close to each other. Going back to the fence analogy, you made the fence too long and skinny – there’s very little internal space.

    OK, this should be enough to show the point of all this and draw some conclusions. Try to keep your FB synergies about 10-11 points above your FM slvl. If you don’t have perfect gear, or aren’t sure what you will end up with – error on the side of putting more points into FM than FB. (i.e. make your FB synergies about 10 points higher than FM slvl with the gear you think you will reasonably find. If later on you add some more +skill items and you end up with a higher FM slvl, it’s no big deal.) Even at only 5 points higher FB synergies compared to FM slvl your fireball damage will only decrease by less than 100 points (and your Meteor damage will go up anyway). This is really where the art comes in more than the math. Not knowing how much + skill items you'll end up with has a bigger impact on how much CM to use.
     
  15. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    A fair point. I was thinking more along the lines of the latter 20% difference, which is significant to me, and to some others.

    I did some calculations with some choice builds, results below (all examples assume base 20/20 in FBall/Met and base 1/1 in FBolt/FM):

    +10 all skills, with 5 skill points to spend (e.g. Blizzball)
    For max Met damage
    Code:
    1 FBolt, 6 FM
    Giving sum FBall synergies of 21 and displayed FM of 16
    FBall = 3546
    Met= 8276 (975 pyre damage per second)
    For max FBall damage
    Code:
    4 FBolt, 3 FM
    Giving sum FBall synergies of 24 and displayed FM of 13 (24 - 13 = 11)
    FBall = 3573
    Met = 8088 (887 pyre damage per second)
    So for max FBall damage, you gain 27 damage per FBall but lose 188 damage per Met (lose ** pyre damage per second).

    +10 all skills, with 20 skill points to spend (e.g. Meteorb)
    For max Met damage
    Code:
    5 FBolt, 17 FM
    Giving sum FBall synergies of 25 and displayed FM of 27
    FBall = 5377
    Met = 12060 (1295 pyre damage per second)
    For max FBall damage
    Code:
    11 FBolt, 11 FM
    Giving sum FBall synergies of 31 and displayed FM of 21 (31 - 21 = 10)
    FBall = 5522
    Met = 11828 (1120 pyre damage per second)
    So for max FBall damage, you gain 145 damage per FBall but lose 232 damage per Met (lose 175 pyre damage per second).

    Interesting results, now that I've ran the numbers through for a Meteorb build, instead of a Blizzball build.

    For a Blizzball, I'd go with max Meteor damage, since max FBall damage results in a paltry gain of 27 in FBall but a loss of 188 in Meteor. That loss in Met is significant.

    For a Meteorb, a bit more thought is required before making a decision. Will you be primarily spamming FBall? If yes, then go with max FBall. Will you be casting in the sequence of 2 FBalls to 1 Met? If yes, then max Met damage may be preferable, since the gain of 175 pyre damage per second adds up, given that those pyres stack and last for over 10 seconds per Meteor. Or, strike a balance between max FBall and max Met by distributing the skill points in between the two ranges above.
     
  16. Delreich

    Delreich IncGamers Member

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    30 out of 3k, 200 out of 8k... as I said, insignificant.

    The 10 and 20 percent where relative differences for best possible compared to
    worst possible for each of the skills. 20% is indeed significant though... :embarassed:
    As your examples show, when optimizing it doesn't really matter which skill you
    go for.


    Pyre damage seems different though... where did those numbers come from?
     
  17. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    You are looking at the total damage output of the skills, where the difference in loss or gain is insignificant.

    I am comparing the gain vs loss of one skill to another. In the case of the Blizzball example, significant.
     
  18. Delreich

    Delreich IncGamers Member

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    At least compare relative loss/gain then, otherwise Meteor will stay ahead just because
    of it's higher damage.The numbers would be 1% vs 2.5% rather than 27 vs 188.


    The pyre damage still has me confused...
     
  19. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    If we're going to start comparing relative loss/gain, then we might as well abandon this entire exercise. I feel that the absolute numbers convey a better appreciation of the loss/gain in one skill compared to the other. After all, the whole point of this is to 'nitpick' over small differences in the hopes of achieving optimum (but barely, if not entirely) noticeable differences.

    What is it about the pyre damages that are troubling to you?

    Edit: @MageChick: I just finished reading your very impressive post above. You certainly have taken this over and above the call of duty. I think you give yourself less credit than you deserve. You obviously remember more from your college days than I do. And the effort that you've put into your reply... phenomenal! Now, if I could bother you with a PM of my own...
     
  20. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    Well, I managed to slog through much of page1 of this thread, but I admit I didn't read much of page2 forward. It looks like most of the technical stuff is being covered by others more knowledgeable than myself anyways...


    @thyiad, if you do decide to try the 200FCR breakpoint, and get close but need a 20% amulet, I'm pretty sure I have one that I can give you (for free). Unfortunately it's not vanilla (it's RRM/RWM), but feel free to ask at any time...

    However, I agree with the opninion that 105FCR is probably best overall for a meteorb, and is certainly easier to reach.
     

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