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Finding PvM balance for HC Javazon

Discussion in 'Amazon' started by drinkturps, May 24, 2005.

  1. drinkturps

    drinkturps IncGamers Member

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    Finding PvM balance for HC Javazon

    I'm going to make a Javazon as my next character this evening. No real decent gear but that's half the fun. I'm looking for a well balanced Javazon or Hybrid that will allow me to play through all the game.

    The only thing I am certain on is.

    Lightning Fury 20
    Valk - cast at 17

    Pre reg's blah, blah.


    The poison skills look very powerful when synergised but will this compromise me when taking down the end of Act bosses like Mephi and Baal or are they quite effective? Could somone who's played this type of Javazon give me some feedback?

    I know that Charged Strike will rip through the bosses but I don't really want to be lightning only, especially in Hell.

    Do you have a big stick on switch and Jab the LI's to death or is there some bow hybrid I could try? I've got a Kuko and a Demon Machine on mules which may help me out.

    If you have any suggestions could you let me know?


    Many thanks.
     
  2. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    kuko: every 1 of my ama in 1.09 had a kuko on switch during their lvl up. I stopped doing this in 1.10. in 1.10, it's just a unique bow, that's all.

    demon machine: buri is MUCH better as a wpn on switch - good to virtually all pvm javazons. Hellrack is good too if you have no AR problems. When choosing a bow (by bow, I mean both bow/xbow), note the fact that you won't switch unless you can't kill with your main wpn (= with physical + lightening + possibly psn).


    for a javazon, the safest support skill in the bow skill stree is FA. Add 1 pt to GA if you go for a bow anyway. Piercing supports both LF and FA. Stack up +cold small charms in your inv if you plan to use FA in hell.


    valk: best to be 20, instead of 17. the extra 3 pts won't hurt. try to cast her in town at lvl 30+ in hell with all +passives you have.


    No big stick can help you out, if your main wpn can't (unless that's ebotd - ofc,we all can only get a duped 1). It's unnecessary, and is not safe even for levelup.


    You'll need lvl20 Charged S just to be safe and effective in killing big bosses.


    Your best merc is ac2 NM defensive with HF aura. (if you talk about "uber", your best bet is act2 NM offensive merc with a DOOM wpn, or act2 Norm defensive merc with an Infinity, or close)


    your base str should never go beyond 103 - even if you plan to use SS. 95 is better. 75 may be enough already.

    aim to have 250+ vita when naked, or at least 1.2K hit points with excellent passives and full resists in Hell with your gear, at high lvls past 80.


    (if you think full resists overkill, you'll need to be at least able to take several meteors and/or lightening bolts without ANY problem. Or, you may face too much risk in act4/5 in Hell whenever you decide to solo.)

    A HC Javazon should be able to solo in Hell with the only possible ecxeptions being Hell ancients and a few dungeons/caves in act3/5. You'll need good enough gear and be patient.
     
  3. drinkturps

    drinkturps IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the detailed reply. I've got her to level 15 now and so far it's 1 point in each apart from Dodge which is 4 and Avoid at 2. I have a +2 passive ammy to wear at lvl 30. Could make a lore helm and use a Sigons Sheild all the usual cheap stuff.

    This will means that my goal will be

    CS 20
    LF 20
    Valk 20
    My passives D/A/E will 4/2/4
    Throw a few points into pierce say 4

    That's the core Lightning Java complete. For 1 point in FA and 1 in GA I'll need 6 points in the Bow tree. This will take me up to 89 skill points which will have me at around level 77-80 depending on Hell Izzual or not. Is 1 point in FA enough with poor AR?

    Funnily enough I was in my Act 1 game and when I returned to town there was a whistans guard and a unique balrog spear on the ground. I waited about checked the message log but there was nothing. I've claimed them for myself.

    The balrog spear packed a punch and had added lightning and fire damage with 11% life leech. For the life of me I cannot remember what it was called and nothing came up in the items database. Would that have any use to throw at the LIs? It was about 98-198 throw damage if I remember.

    The best bow/x-bow I have is either a kuko, demon machine although I have a cruel matriarchal bow on a mule that I never knew I had. Would this provide me enough oomph for supporting my merc and Valk with the LIs?

    I appreciate that Hell will be slow going but that's when the game gets exciting in HC!

    Am I correct in assuming that the Cow King in NM is LI? I'll use this dolly to farm me those four socket swords, shields and polearms in her time out from hell.

    Thanks
     
  4. xeyloderixed

    xeyloderixed IncGamers Member

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    if ur looking for a bow, harmony is pretty cheap and packs quite a lot of elemental damage. it is slow though. im making mine in a 4 sock +3 mat bow :)
     
  5. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    Bosses are never the problem in Hell mode as youre not compelled to face them till youre ready.It will be other unique bosses and minor boss combinations and associated minion long range fire/curses that will cause problems for you. In that respect the safest way to proceed is not by closing with the enemy.


    A pure LF javazon is quite viable in Hell, using a hi level valk,decoy, wands or blades of lower resist/confusion/attract and an act2 merc using crushing blow and decrepify etc.
     
  6. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    1pt in FA is just for safety. FA hits all the targets on the trail of the physical arrow (or bolt), no AR ever needed. Some (RTB, for example) claim that this is just graphical. But my experience with my ladder bowazons suggests that FA will always freeze the target that the physical arrow touches (assuming the target can be frozen). The physical damage of the arrow and the extra damage added to the arrow from gear may or may not be delivered to the target - for example, you have physical + poison dmg, but your target does not turn green (only blue) when frozen, so you know the arrow has missed the target. The FA effect (freeze + cold damage) is always delivered to the target, however. If the arrow pierces and if it touches another target, the same FA effect will apply to that target too. If the arrow pierces 3 times, the FA effect will apply to at least 3 targets. The splash effect of FA is always graphical - you see this when your FA hits a wall - that's not something we're interested in. But if 3 targets are frozen solid, that can't be just graphical - "freeze enemies" is what we use 1pt FA for. remember to collect cold dmg charms to increase the freeze time in Hell. (Buri has a "freeze target" mod but that's just a variable %chance to freeze a target)


    Demon's Arch is good for a thrower barb, or for an act2 merc whom you want to do more elemental dmg. if attack speed is no problem then it can be good to use along with Jab, or C. Strike, or plague (poison) throw, etc. for handling LI (especially those with PI+LI). With a buriza or something close, your ama will unlikely need that. Tiamat's Rebute (unique shield) provides something close.


    typically, you'll have very low AR even at very high levels. So, a high-end bow for a bowazon may or may not be a best choice to a javazon.



    Tarantella: for a typically L-based javazon in 1.10, the safest (and most effective) way to kill big bosses is to close in and strike them down with CS (Jab is equally safe but much less effective). Here's why:

    if you choose to stay out of melee, you'll have the following options for killing big bosses (Hell Diablo/Baal/ancients, etc):

    - rely mainly on throws or lightening- or poison-enchanced throws. extremely slow.
    - rely mainly on minions (valk + merc + whatever you can summon with your gear). next to impossible.
    - rely mainly on a bow that does decent damage. very slow, lots of running, a fast way to die if lagged in bow mode.
    - rely mainly on other party members (N.A. if you solo). well, this way, you get a rush.

    Tactically, you'd be better off if you use your valk to cover you when you use CS (those bosses won't be fooled with your decoy). Recast her on the other side of Diablo/etc, just before she's about to die.


    On HCL (L is harder than NL), typically, a PURE L-based javazon as such is not really Hell viable for practical reasons, because that would require her to kill thousands of LI enemies in Hell, including LI council members and Madawc (the LI ancient), without dying even once - and her lvl cannot be much higher than 80. This sounds contradictory to my previous statement. But for practical reasons, act2/3/5 can turn out to be extremely hard, if such a build tries to solo 100% without dying once. BTW, i haven't heard of any such solo story.
     
  7. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    In reply but pardon me in advance if I appear to hijack the thread :)

    Some bosses do attack decoys,Duriel in particular if caught between swiping at a minion or merc and decoy will turn to swipe the decoy now and then and more importantly other bosses will respond to decoys being cast in their zone of awareness.


    The thing about javazons is that unlike sorceresses who can be sometimes completely stumped by some immunities a javazon can fall back on the shear physical and other elemental damage caused by the initial javelin and not by the LF to get through particular problem areas. Critical strike is important here though as it not only increases the physical damage over time of the javazon it makes the valkyrie extremely effective at killing things.

    Character build wise its not effective use of 22 skill points in Cs for killing bosses that occupy a small fraction of a characters total playing time even if this means sometimes delaying ones encounters with the bosses.Typically in normal Andy at level 18, Duriel,Meph and Diablo at 24,Baal at 30+. Ancients at 24-30 though . Patience here pays off later in the game as does levelling the act2 merc for Duriel.

    In nightmare you can get by without the merc for quite a while using him for the Durance dolls and Ancients is recommended. The use of wands on switch is a cheap an effective way of controlling enemies and increasing damage whilst keeping a hi-block and resists at all times.


    By the mid 50s a level 28 valk is easily achievable and survives quite well in nightmare especially with a defiance merc. In hell the wand of lower resist signifcantly reduces the number of LI and increases damage generally.There are very few LI , PI creatures in the whole game and in my opinion if you want to play a javazon in HC and arn't particularly worried about hunting the diabloclone skill points spent in passives will increase the longevity of the character whilst those spent in anything apart from the LF tree do not even if at times it means you're running around like a cissie gurl. ;)
     
  8. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    ITD bow (Eaglehorn) + FA + Strafe/GA will take care of any LI problems you might encounter.

    I'll do it! SP of course, don't want to lose such a quest due to a sudden lagspike. :lol:
     
  9. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    just for a bit clarification:

    Decoy and big bosses: Some big bosses (by "big" i don't just refer to 5 prime evils) do attack decoy. A very good example is Izual: decoy is his favoriate - you could have a lvl ~15 act2 merc kill Norm Izual in a big game, if you have a relatively durable decoy. But Baal and ancients will completely ignore your decoy. I've never seen Diablo (nor his clone) attack decoy, though this might be because decoy lasts only a nominal time in the area effect of Diablo's attacks. (in 1.09 my strafer would at least try to cast decoy to gain 1 extra attack even against big D).


    Norm/NM games: a typical javazon build has no real problem in Norm, NM, and up to Hell act1: she can survive virtually everywhere even with junk gear. She typically enters Hell at ~75. Starting with a few places in Hell act1, such as Mausoleum in the Burial Ground, her killing power will significantly decrease compared to what she had in NM, unless you significantly improve her gear to counter that. That's where the real challenge to a javazon starts.


    Hell viability:

    if she solo and tries to do all quests in Hell, unless she's fully twinked with very decent gear and also you are a very, very experienced player, Hell act2/3 will give her big headaches in almost every place. I'm not saying she can't solo through entire act2/3 without dying even once. I'm just saying it'll be significantly more difficult - especially on HCL.

    Theorectically, you could resort to melee or switch to bow to handle LI, but in face of thousands of LI's in Hell act2/3, I would prayer that you would have that type of patience to stay alive while killing them 1 by 1. Not to mention some of the LI monsters are immune to physical, some may have very dangerous mods, and some may be protected by other very dangerous bosses.

    A few examples: unless you are 120% ready in terms of gear, you'll have a great chance to die if your valk, merc and yourself attack huge boss packs of beetles and other monsters all at the same time, if you enter a tomb in act2 and get surrounded with a huge mob and refuse to exit the game, if you jab a boss pack of black souls in act3, if you enter the ruined temple and refuse to exit the game immediately, if you attack stygian dolls in melee or if they catch you and you choose to open fire in melee, if you try to jab the witch doctor in the Flayer Jungle.... If a coucil member boss is spawned with PI + LI, you may find it would take you years to finish him off, assuming you are a *PURE* L-based javazon, though he should be only able to kill your merc.

    Hell act5: with numerous "guest" monsters, it has all the dangers you have had in act2/3, and much more!


    Act bosses:

    Hell Andariel is not a real threat to any questing HC amazon past about ~75. Hell Duriel is hardly able to kill a high-lvl Valk (or even just to hurt her), so it's a matter of time for you to kill him. Hell Meph himself is not dangerous even if you get hit by his most dangerous attacks, assuming you use a shield full-time. But similar to Hell Baal and Hell Diablo, if your pure L-based javazon wants to kill him without using Charged Strike, be ready to enjoy a prolonged fight. For practical reasons, Hell Diablo, Hell Baal, and Hell ancients are not killable to your pure L-based javazon if she chooses to use only jab or throw skills - it would take just too much time, even if you can.


    My own xp:

    When the first HCL came out in 2003, I built a pure L-based javazon and was determined to at least try to solo Hell with her, but unfortunately, she got PK'ed in a public game around lvl 70. Later, I tried but have never got enough patience to actually solo through entire act2/3 in Hell. My pure L-based trapsin did that, however, on the first HCL - and she was untwinked, and solo'ed entire Hell except for Hell ancients. Unlike a trapsin, an untwinked Javazon has virtually no chance to survive act2-5 in Hell solo, unless she's lucky enough to twink herself using what she has found in NM and some places in Hell act1 - in other words, compared to a trapsin, she needs much better gear to be able to defeat Hell.



    BTW, critical strike and charged strike are different (I guess I have made a clear distinction in my posts). Critical S. is unimportant to an L-based javazon: it only slightly affects her ability to leech. since she typically has already got a decent % ed from her wpn or gear, the occasional doubled base dmg can only be transalted into a small % ed on average - not worth even 1 extra skill point in this skill. If you really want it, try to increase %Deadly Strike from your gear (note: deadly strike and critical strike do not stack up, so it's an either-or deal here). If you need to boost your prowess in physical melee attack, the best and the right way is to increase your %crushing blow up to 100%. Against big bosses like Hell Baal, this can be translated into (literally) 10000% ED on your melee javelin in an 8ppl game. Open wound and prevent monster heal can also help a lot.

    Charged Strike is a melee-boosting skill. Against a single big (the bigger the better) target, it's a killer skill even in 8ppl Hell games. It's a must-have skill to a PURE L-based javazon. LF is a synergy for this skill.
     
  10. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    to a typical javazon, eagle is not comparable to a buriza for 3 reasons:

    1) buri does significant more dmg per shoot than eagle, especially in the hands of a high-lvl ama.

    2) eagle is all about physical, unable to handle PI. Buri adds nontrivial cold dmg, and can take care of PI monsters (assuming their regenration is not way too faster than you can drop).

    some LI are actually PI + LI = you'll need to deliver some damage other than physical and lightening. Poison can help (you get 2 such skills on your way to LF, regardless), but usually not enough at all.

    3) eagle is a slow bow (speed=10), you'll need IAS to reach a comfortable attack speed. buri is a slow crossbow but with 80% ias, you don't have to have any IAS to use it for plain attacks (FA requires plain attack).



    I hope you'll succeed in questing through Hell act2/3 (and to the end of terror) solo with a L-based javazon. After you're done, please do remember to write a post here to report your achievement.
     
  11. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    Theres a lot of truth in what you say Twinjava and in many ways it boils down to which playing style you prefer.Having played amazons on HC solid for nearly 3 years one learns how to approach ,retire from and tackle the most lethal situations.

    I did a couple of solo runs tonight, Diablo took 90 seconds and Baal 105 seconds to take out with my throwers set up and supporting minions though my java is lvl 89 with some nicely affordable gear. Got a nice Sc 5resall/15life for my troubles. The runs to the bosses of course took considerably longer but not worrying about IM takes a lot of stress off. :)
     
  12. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    For a typical L-based javazon in relatively poor gear with only +5 total javelin skills:

    she can deliver 6-8K average L dmg per CS strike, based on how she's actually built.
    Assume she can try to strike Diablo about twice per second with 1 constantly being blocked or missed.
    she can do roughly 1/2 of 6-8K dmg to Diablo per second with the other half dmg being resisted.
    Diablo has less than 120K hit points in a smallest game.
    A typical L-based javazon in relatively poor gear is able to strike Diablo down in 30-40 seconds (120K divided by 1/2 of 6-8K).

    The actual time should be shorter, because you also have other damage that should be more than offsetting Diablo's regeneration. Any nice mod from your gear that supports your melee attack can significantly reduce the time. Certainly, if she's really poor and/or if you are really a "defensive" type who's just afraid of going melee, it could take more time.

    It's reasonable to say a typical L-based, high-level (because AR matters a lot in melee), well-played javazon in nice gear is able to kill Hell Diablo within ~30 seconds in any small game - all by herself.


    To a typical 1.10 javazon, Hell act1/2/3/4 end bosses are not hard. Baal is lvl 99, can be very, very annoying, can take much more time than you would theorectically need. and the time for killing Baal can vary widely. Also, if you're lagged in his chamber or when fighting Lister, your javazon might just have to die - though matters not if you are not in HC or on HCL.




    Baal has 500K hit points, and you killed him in 105 seconds. That's 5K effective dmg per second. And you relied on throw, instead of L dmg. Even if your AR were perfect, you'd still need to do at least 10K average throw damage to Baal per second, regardless of how you achieved that. Very impressive! A thrower barb on ladder without uber gear has no chance to achieve that!

    But I personally believe that is far beyond the reach of most HCL players, who are typically much poorer than most SCL players (because duped highend items are now widespread in SCL) and non-ladder/SP players (because you have accumulated lots of stuff in the past).
     

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