% finding magical items ....

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Diablo was the first item-hunting game I have ever played that introduced the concept of %mf. I had never seen it before in much more intense item farming-games than Diablo will ever be (i'm thinking a few MUDs here) and no one missed it.
Exactly.


mf gear can find better items easier while kill stuff slower.
pvp gear can not find stuff as easy but kill stuff faster.
Sorry but thats BS and you and I know it. A proper equiped hammerdin will indeed kill faster than a MF-geared hammerdin, but not by that much and the MF-geared one will still find better loot. So in the end, one wants to play to get better stats and cooler gear while the other is just hoarding MF and is not being punished as much and is still finding much better loot. Just like my situation with the arm of king leoric and the gull, there was pretty much no diference in the killing, I just wanted the arm of king leoric better because it was made for my build but I had to use the gull because of the MF.

Why? Simple, its because this benefits mostly casters which are builds that can rely on their skills alone and not weapon-equip based characters. Try a MF-geared martial asn(just 4 fun, its not even viable because, tadda! Its not a caster...) and try a MF-geared sorc to see the diference.

This is a simple as i can say it, if you want to MAGIC FIND effectivly put on MAGIC FINDING GEAR, if you want to kill stuff fast out on NON MAGIC FINDING GEAR. You have the choice what gear you equip, and what you do with a charecter, stop complaining you cant have the best of both worlds at the same time, and do what the rest of us do and try and get the stuff to do both things.
Again why exactly should we have Gear to Find Gear? Diablo is pretty much the only loot based game that has it and so far all it did was to force PVM players into prefering MF over anything else and because of that, casters are prefered for PVM because of their lack of depedency on gear if compared to weapon-based builds, something is wrong here, I just cant see the light on the MF mod at all.
 

Alzakarr

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

How about simply not allowing MF% to stack? So that only the piece of equipment with the highest MF gets used. This would be much easier to balance - having crappy equips with lots of MF (ie Gull) so that in order to have the most you would be forced to use a subpar piece of gear. Plus there would be a built-in cap.
 

Nimbostratus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

It doesn't matter whether or not MF% can be balanced, but whether or not MF% can add to the fun.

-Making yourself weaker in order to get something that makes you stronger: Not fun.
-Getting a rare instead of a unique when you decided you'd stop wearing full MF gear (and the resulting frustration): Not fun.



Though if you prefer talking about whether or not MF can be balanced: Realize that MF (and item-hunting in general) in and of itself has increasing returns. The rich get richer faster.
 

Alzakarr

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

I have to disagree. What is fun your you may not be fun for me. Excersise, learning, taking an entry-level job are all RL things that make you weaker in the present to get stronger later. And I find them all enjoyable and satisfying. One of the things I find great fun in doing in RPGs is making the best use I can out of the resources available. Now maybe that's just me. But I've had item lust too. Some years back - a bit after 1.10 came out - I decided I wanted all the cool toys so I could stomp all the mobs just like all the cool kids on bnet. So I self-duped a bunch of runes and uniques, made myself a souped-up enigmamancer and started running pindle.

By two days later I had wiped everything off my computer and kept it that way for a good year and a half. Because I was having no fun at all. When I finally came back I played with untwinked chars, tourney chars, naked chars. And trying to make do with the blues and rares that I found - and occasionaly succeeding - is in my view far more fun than I ever had going tele-tele-amp-CE-CE-alt-S&E.

As for wether MF can be truly balanced - I don't know. It's true that any form of item-hunting has increasing returns, but I'll bet almost anything that time invested pwns any MF you might be wearing.

I'm sure MF will be in d3. I'm also sure that a balanced MF system will be far more fun than an unbalanced MF system. Which is why I made a suggestion in the first place.
 

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Putting "fun" opinions aside, what exactly MF adds to the game and it is worth for what it detracts from?
 

zaxxon

Banned
Re: % finding magical items ....

Incredible! I never thought %MF would turn political.

Let me tell you something that one of the fathers of Capitalism you so much enjoy, once said: "The most important thing about Democracy is my right to have an opinion and my right to be wrong."

Your rhetoric Zaxxon, is nothing more than that. Just rhetoric. Completely maladjusted to a discussion that so far was centered on Magic finding in a game called Diablo. If you find you don't share the opinions on the table, you can argue against them by respecting the topic at hand and respecting the people in the thread.

Otherwise you are the one committing the sin you wrongfully are attributing to others. And that is... allow me to remind you:



You see... you are the one here not presenting one single argument. Just babbling your political crap. You shouldn't even be worth this reply.
Admittedly, I did go a bit overboard on the rhetoric, but I did have a very important point in there, and that is the removal of risk. I view risk as challenge, and it is extremely challenging for me to "gimp" my character and go run the hardest areas of the game by myself. I am in constant fear of dying (and when you're 90+ you really don't want to die because of the experience loss), and I can also roll better items. This combination is an emotional roller coaster that can give you extreme highs (winning an amazing fight and finding phat lootz) and extreme lows (dying a few times and losing nearly a day or more of playing time in lost experience). THAT is the way I like to play the game, because it offers by far the most fun. I don't want to be coddled. I don't want to only get the very best in gear to use in pve (after all that's what pvp is for). I want the rushes that only come from the fear of death and extreme challenge!! Taking away magic find takes away the more challenging mode of gameplay I prefer.

Overall though there is an important point I did not make, and that is that magic find is not the root of the problem here. There are several root causes here that impact the context of magic find. First is class balance. People blame magic find for the fact that they cannot magic find as well with an assassin when compared to a sorc. Well, this is a class and gear balance issue, NOT a magic find issue. Another important factor is that with duping, baal botting, and a far lower population than the game was made for result in a vast overabundance of items; making it possible and basically required for everyone to create a "top 3" magic find character simply to compete. Again, this is NOT a magic find issue, this is a game design issue. Finally, D2 was made primarily for pve dungeon running with a sliver of a pvp system thrown in as an afterthought. There needs to be a reason to find great non-mf items, and that requires a better implemented pvp system with perhaps battlegrounds or controllable lands for resources, or something of that nature. That would give people incentive to find and use non-mf gear. Again, magic find is not the root cause of the issues here. You guys are attacking a symptom, and not the underlying condition.

So with those arguments stated, I stand by my original statement. Magic find enhances the gameplay and rewards those who are willing to sacrifice killing speed and pvp to find items for other players who would rather participate in other activities. It's a good system, and has many similarities to a capitalist approach. By removing magic find from the game, the freedom, challenge, and opportunity in the game is drastically reduced, and does not reward those who take risks and sacrifice killing speed. That is a socialist design philosophy designed to reward those who in my opinion should not be rewarded.

Perhaps now you understand my original post a bit more. It was never intended to be political, only to illustrate a point. From my point of view, it's an analogy that I think is 100% correct and has been a major driving factor of the online gaming industry for years now. It's all about making everyone do the exact same things, run the exact same dungeons, in the exact same size groups, for the exact same loot that drops often and never varies. Everyone ends up the same with no uniqueness, no variety, and no elitism. That's socialism to me, pure and simple. D2 embraced risk and reward, and that's why to this day no other game compares, despite the fact that today's mmos and online rpgs have 100x the content of D2.


 
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zaxxon

Banned
Re: % finding magical items ....

It doesn't matter whether or not MF% can be balanced, but whether or not MF% can add to the fun.

-Making yourself weaker in order to get something that makes you stronger: Not fun.
-Getting a rare instead of a unique when you decided you'd stop wearing full MF gear (and the resulting frustration): Not fun.



Though if you prefer talking about whether or not MF can be balanced: Realize that MF (and item-hunting in general) in and of itself has increasing returns. The rich get richer faster.
This really strikes to the heart of my argument. So many times I hear this stuff. Essentially, you want to sacrifice rarer but more fulfilling fun with a lower degree of consistent fun. To me, life is never as sweet without the bitter. To experience the ultimately more satisfying thrill of finding the best items, you should endure a bit of "work" (gimping your character for mf) for the reward that you would not otherwise get. IMO, the experience of finding top gear is greatly diminished without taking a risk to get it.

How about:

-Making yourself weaker in order to get something that makes you strong and finding a crown of ages?

- Getting a Unique item instead of a rare item when you decide to start wearing mf gear?


We all have different ideas about what is fun, and perhaps we will need to agree to disagree. However, the thrill of finding the crown of ages or a perfect griffons is ultimately far more fun to me, particularly when it was a more challenging endeavor because of magic find.


 

sinned

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Let's not compare a game to real life here ;). If playing w/o MF is consistent fun (and having fun is the point of the game), then most players will not get MF gear. The thrill of getting a good item can be better to some and those will get MF gear. The reason the system is flawed is D2 - and this has been mentioned many times in this thread - is the fact that many casters could stack MF w/o really gimping their killing speed.

Forbidding others to have fun (the thrill!) in their own way just because they might get something (a rare item) out of their investment (gimping the character) is selfish.
 

zaxxon

Banned
Re: % finding magical items ....


Again why exactly should we have Gear to Find Gear? Diablo is pretty much the only loot based game that has it and so far all it did was to force PVM players into prefering MF over anything else and because of that, casters are prefered for PVM because of their lack of depedency on gear if compared to weapon-based builds, something is wrong here, I just cant see the light on the MF mod at all.

What's wrong here is your analysis. You have gear to find gear to add more gear to the game and increase its replayability. PVM players prefer mf because they find better loots. No pvm players were EVER forced to use mf gear. You always have a choice, and in some circles killing twice the critters with half the mf is more productive. So to say that top mf gear is required is ridiculous. Casters are preferred for magic find, yes, but this is not a magic find issue, this is a class balance issue. You can't see the light on the MF mod at all because you are focusing your analysis on the wrong variables.


 

Ishtor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Ok here is what i think.

This is my opinion is how every class can MF, and how much MF they could have without charms in there invitory.

Amazon-
This is my opinion would be the hardest charecter to MF with, i would think to get the most MF you would have to go as a Jazazon using a 4 isted monarch to give you 100 mf. but i would say over all with all the gear you would look at 345 mf with out charms and with out totally screwing the charecter over. this in my opinion would be the worst charcter to do this with.

Assassian-
I would say you would want to go as a trap assassian here, also using an ist'd monarch and using a claw with an ist in it also. this could build up the mf just as much as a paladin or sorc in my opinion and could be a very good class to do this with. the only problem it would have, would be the same as a sorc, and alot of mobs could imune to it. other wise you look at an easily get over 400 mf.

Barbarian-
whereing MF gear could provide dificulties. there is some thing about a barb you would mf with that could be kind of neet. The skill find item this will give you 2x the chance to find stuff. barb could easily get 300 mf with out hurting it too much. but still would slow it down a great deal, but in return you could have an intresting skill to mess with, if you want the barb for only MFing.

Druid-
Ele Druid all the way on this. this is also caster type charecter easily get over 400 MF with this charecter, this is also a fun charecter to play with.

Necromancer-
also a cater type charcter, with some kool skill to aid it like bone wall, curse and its bone move this charecter could be a funn class ot mf and also could easilt get over 400 mf.

Paladin-
this does not need to be discussed

Sorceress-
this does not need to be discussed

also keep in mid with MF charms and stuff the amount of MF could get up really high at the same time. Barb and amzons have the hardest time trying to get MF, but they still can get a decent amount to survive.

but here is another thing i will say, at the same time D2 does give the option to make more than one charecter, wonder why that is?
 

Nimbostratus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

but here is another thing i will say, at the same time D2 does give the option to make more than one charecter, wonder why that is?
Are you seriously suggesting that item-hunting is the only reason we're allowed to make multiple characters?



 

Ishtor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Are you seriously suggesting that item-hunting is the only reason we're allowed to make multiple characters?
no i am not saying that, i am say if one class is not good at something play another class for that reaon. For example, Barb are not good as Sorc when item finding, play a sorc to item find.

I do not fidnd this game to pvm based, i find it to be a close 50/50. if you choose to pvm and want to use mf gear go for it, if there if putting on MF gear hurts you to much put on regular gear or play another charecter to mf with.


 

K-Lined

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

I believe "% to find magic items" created a very bad psicological effect in D2. You pretty much felt that you needed to play the game with that mod otherwise you wouldnt find good loot. If you decide to unnequip some MF gear to switch to an equip that makes your character stronger and more fun and suddenly you found a rare shako, you would think: "Damn, maybe if I was with my MF equip it could have been a unique..."

So, for such a loot centric game, you get forced into equiping MF gear otherwise you feel like you lose too many chances of finding good loot. I would rather have the mod to be removed in order to not force players into equiping it and make the players decide between gear that suits their playstyle and makes their killing and characters fun rather than a boring mod that just feels forced as it boosts one of the main aspects of the game which is item collecting. With such a mod, any elite item without that mod gets outclassed by some other item that has MF.
This.
.



 

isak viking

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

no not really, i never though so.. i played the game and even though u wear mf gear or not u will comple the game untill u might get a very very hard time in single player on hell. so the loot comes and goes anyways, all that super unique stuff, yes you NEED to have good mf gear, and do baal runs and kills bosses and whatever.. that is kinda after u are finished with the pvm, when u start pvp... trying to be the best of the players, i think that should take more of a plyer than having FUN and killing monster for joy.! aboslutely.. why dont you just complaint about everyone have the same builds? those guy who had, should be ashamed then? or shut up and put their mf gear on and do boss runs.. and find runes n ****.. this thread is ridiculus.. im sry my english is crap..

its still a loot based game? and the loot u need u find.. even with or without mf gear.. til u get to hell, or hell will come for you


 

Evil Storm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Great! I didn't think my topic will be so popular here, anyways as I understood you all correctly, MF is disbalancing the game and gameplay begins to be not so interesting,let us hope Blizzard employees will see this topic and think of adding MF mod to D3 =)
 

isak viking

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: % finding magical items ....

Great! I didn't think my topic will be so popular here, anyways as I understood you all correctly, MF is disbalancing the game and gameplay begins to be not so interesting,let us hope Blizzard employees will see this topic and think of adding MF mod to D3 =)
we are trying to be serious here.. not popular.. and there is nothing wrong with the mf in d2.. the only problem is that it is easier to be a caster, because they are not so loot centered, they relly on their skills much more in d2.. as far as i've seen thats not the thing in d3.. i hope.. but i dont care. it was no problem in d2. a bigger problem in d2 was the synergies.. which made other skills useless:badteeth::crazy::lol2:


 
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