% finding magical items ....

[Ishtor]

Re: % finding magical items ....

This is my take on this subject. The mod for Mf is not bad at all, and not all your charecter would need this mod. With how the gae works today, you can do good with out it, by rushing people for there forges and stuff like that. But if you can place it on your toon and not hurt yourself, why not.

Not all classes where ment to be an MFing maching (Magic find, not M%$#!R F%^*#$G). I think it was designed this way on purpose. Sorc are great but then they have the weakness of being useless when stuff is imune to them, hammerdins are great, both of these can just stack up the mf like nothing.

Barbs can go fast switch with 2 weapons fully isted out and get 320 mf right before killing the boss, along with othere MF, Barbs could pull ou high MF to with it hurting.

This mod is not needed on all your charecters, just the one you want to mf on.

 

[Krugar]

Re: % finding magical items ....

The perceived balance you talk about is not so linear Ishtor. The issue wasn't so much tied to classes/builds meant for MFing.

The problem has more to do with how %MF scaled to such big numbers and with such a strong impact in the end result. Had %MF been toned down to more manageable figures (probably even capped, instead of having diminishing returns) any class, any build, any playstyle, including questing, could have been more rewarding. As is, %MF resulted on a lifestyle and on characters and builds that can effectively run a boss in record time, but can't play one single act in hell.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Also my main issue is that the MF mod simply isnt fun. It add nothing to the game that should already be there: hunt for loot. Its already one of the main aspects of the game there is no reason to empower a Mod that does nothing but boost that.

And again, the psycological effect it creates is really bad for character development.

Example: I would like to equip my Poison necro with all the possible equip that makes his damage sky rocket so I can do my pit runs in a breeze but I have to actually gimp myself to have MF otherwise I would think that every rare that drops could have been an unique if it wasnt for this terrible system.

And why not every single build should be hunting for loot? I mean.... its part of the fun of the game, every single build SHOULD have the chances of finding good stuff regardless of their choice of playstyle, are you killing monsters? Great, then you should have the chances to find it, not because some other classes can gimp themselves to boost this awful mod and because of that, they deserve better chances than you.

I still dont see any good argument on why should only some classes be able to MF. Make the chances more balanced for everyone and everyone will be happy. There is nothing fun about the MF mod, ppl might like it because it is in D2 but again, that doesnt mean it was the right choice.

 

[Krugar]

Re: % finding magical items ....

[...]are you killing monsters? Great, then you should have the chances to find it[...]

:thumbsup:

Absolutely. And this is not to say %MF shouldn't be a part of D3. It could be, no worries. But I would rather like it more if it had only a residual impact and ideally only accessible through any of the means that will be in place for item customization.

Coincidentally, the announced intention of increasing drop odds does remove some of the need for high %MF. It's quite extraordinary, if you think about it, that you could in fact remove %MF altogether from D3: Increase odds in D3 to the level of... say, what it was like with 150% MF in D2. And you still will have a game with a lot of very rare items.

 

[zaxxon]

Re: % finding magical items ....

It will have the same system. However, it is likely not to be as drastic as it is in diablo II. There idea is to make the general game stronger rather then have people focus in mf in just a few places.
A logic consequence is diminish the effect of mf. If doing specific mf run isn't worth the effort, it won't be done. And that's what they are after.

To me the logical course is not to diminish the effect of magic find, but to broaden the number of areas where magic find is most useful. Indeed, this is one of the defining factors that in general makes D2 relative crap compared to the massive content of today's mmo. Of course, D2 is not made to be a mmo, but really, running the same 7-8 areas over and over? Not to mention that once you get well geared these areas take no more than 5 min to run each. That's just boring, despite the fact that it is more than the dungeon content that makes D2 a well designed game.

Make it so that we have like 20 to 30 top mf areas that last about 30 min each and you've got a game with so much replayability that it is boggling. Even with that, D3 will still need much more in the works to compete in the long term with today's mmos. Then again, Blizzard has never wanted to compete long term with the Diablo franchise. They really want you to blow through the content, get bored, and leave to free up more space on bnet.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Krugar, I agree it does need to be balanced for the new game. i like the idea for a cap for it also. Every charecter i think deserve the ability to be able to item find effectivly.

I was defending that its not a useless mod and should not be removed.

 

[zaxxon]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Also my main issue is that the MF mod simply isnt fun. It add nothing to the game that should already be there: hunt for loot. Its already one of the main aspects of the game there is no reason to empower a Mod that does nothing but boost that.

And again, the psycological effect it creates is really bad for character development.

Example: I would like to equip my Poison necro with all the possible equip that makes his damage sky rocket so I can do my pit runs in a breeze but I have to actually gimp myself to have MF otherwise I would think that every rare that drops could have been an unique if it wasnt for this terrible system.

And why not every single build should be hunting for loot? I mean.... its part of the fun of the game, every single build SHOULD have the chances of finding good stuff regardless of their choice of playstyle, are you killing monsters? Great, then you should have the chances to find it, not because some other classes can gimp themselves to boost this awful mod and because of that, they deserve better chances than you.

I still dont see any good argument on why should only some classes be able to MF. Make the chances more balanced for everyone and everyone will be happy. There is nothing fun about the MF mod, ppl might like it because it is in D2 but again, that doesnt mean it was the right choice.

It has always boggled me when I hear people against MF. I never heard one logical reason of why it was a bad mechanic. I have heard nothing in your argument to convince me of that either. The fact of the matter is that you are unwilling to make the sacrifice (or gimp as you so eloquently put it) to find better items. You WILL on occasion find good items with no magic find, but if you are willing to make the sacrifice you will find more good items on occasion. You have a choice, no one is forcing you. Magic find does not prevent you from enjoying the game, all it does is reward those who are more patient and willing to sacrifice time and killing speed.

As usual, when people are unwilling to work for something, they try to paintbrush their ideals on others. What you're attempting to do is make Diablo socialist. Quite rhetorical, I admit, but when you get down to it you can't deny it. Refuse to let people take risks and try to make everyone the same. Well, it's a bunch of baloney to me. I believe in capitalism, I believe in taking risks, and I believe that productive time spent today will result in greater rewards tomorrow. I wouldn't have it any other way. Our world, and in particular the western world, is build on opportunity to capitalize. Diablo MF does a spectacular job of transferring this concept into the perpetual gaming world. I won't have you or any of your other commie buddies spoiling that.

Always so funny when people don't get what they want they try to pull people down to their level rather than elevating to the level they should be at. That's exactly what you're trying to do with your argument.

 

[Fox VII]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Down with the MF gear! :nod:

I used nothing but MF gear in D2 and hated every second of it. When the game is designed around finding rare loot, not taking massive magic find makes your character pointless (unless your doing pvp).

Why design all of the other great mods if they ultimatley will be trumped by the greedy mf gear?

Capitalism verses socialism has nothing to do with this arguement. One ... maybe two builds will typically always excel at using the items that yield the most MF gear. Due to this, many good builds and even characters will be ignored due to existance of great MF gear. Maybe this wouldn't be the case if it was available as a mod on rares only and did not get super boosts on unique items.

In my opinion, in order to not waste the usefulness of all those other mods, potential character builds and therefore styles of play, magic find gear should be eliminated completely. Let the difficulty of the monster determine the value of the items dropped and up the drop rate globally.

How many people used the exact same build to MF with? I'd guess about 90% was running around with the same skill allocation and nearly the same gear. That's lame when the D2 had so many other potential builds. hahaha if only the designers knew they could have made the nova sorc. and hammerdin pally to satisfy 9/10th of their player based! They would have saved a lot of design time.

 

[Krugar]

Re: % finding magical items ....

The fact of the matter is that you are unwilling to make the sacrifice (or gimp as you so eloquently put it) to find better items. You WILL on occasion find good items with no magic find, but if you are willing to make the sacrifice you will find more good items on occasion.
[...]
As usual, when people are unwilling to work for something, they try to paintbrush their ideals on others. What you're attempting to do is make Diablo socialist.
[..]
Refuse to let people take risks and try to make everyone the same. Well, it's a bunch of baloney to me. I believe in capitalism, I believe in taking risks, and I believe that productive time spent today will result in greater rewards tomorrow.
[...]
Always so funny when people don't get what they want they try to pull people down to their level rather than elevating to the level they should be at. That's exactly what you're trying to do with your argument.

Incredible! I never thought %MF would turn political.

Let me tell you something that one of the fathers of Capitalism you so much enjoy, once said: "The most important thing about Democracy is my right to have an opinion and my right to be wrong."

Your rhetoric Zaxxon, is nothing more than that. Just rhetoric. Completely maladjusted to a discussion that so far was centered on Magic finding in a game called Diablo. If you find you don't share the opinions on the table, you can argue against them by respecting the topic at hand and respecting the people in the thread.

Otherwise you are the one committing the sin you wrongfully are attributing to others. And that is... allow me to remind you:

Always so funny when people don't get what they want they try to pull people down to their level rather than elevating to the level they should be at.

You see... you are the one here not presenting one single argument. Just babbling your political crap. You shouldn't even be worth this reply.

 

[Drakk]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Krugar +1

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Zaxxon that was one of the weirdest posts I have seen on this forum...

cant you actually defend the %MF mod instead of spinning around and around about political references? Why is the %Mf mod so fun and necessary if all it does is to force you into gimping your characters (yes I put that eloquently again) and thats exactly what it does in a game where the fun is to find loot to get stronger but because of this mod, any item without it is worthless for a good PVM running.

And so I want to make Diablo 2 socialist ? What the hell is this!

This is a game, its supposed to be balanced! Everyone should be equal otherwise the game is unbalanced! And even if its not possible it must something the developers should be trying to achieve even if in end the community will embrace certain builds.

If you believe we must be purposely have a "capitalist" ideology with the game then we must have high class characters like the hammerdin and sorc, mid class, and low class like a elemental arrow-zon or a spearzon. That is a game design flaw and not some brilliance design based on capitalist.

I mean... damn I dont know even where to start there....

 

[Ishtor]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Krugar is a beast! he must play a druid

I will quickley state my opinion one more time.

Mf was not a bad mod, does not to to be remoed, but if they set a cap or limit the amount of mf on an item, this will help balance stuff out a little bit.

also if this mod runed th game for you, that is very sad. this mod like others is optional, if you dont like dont play with it. and not all you charecter required MF, only one of my charecters is built for this and the others are built for PVP.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: % finding magical items ....

^Actually thats one of the problems. The PVP characters could equip all the fun stuff while PVM characters, that means characters that are geared toward Monster killing because of this: Loot. Were the ones that need to hoard MF to have good chances.

So for a PVM centric game it was really bad that PVP characters were the ones that could be using all the cool stuff.

 

[Krugar]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Essentially a system that gives room for the player to gear himself with %MF, but doesn't force him to make penalizing equipment choices that render him useless for any other game activity. Be it PvP, questing, or simply kill monsters to pass the time.

A perfect place for this mod would be in the D3 equivalent of socketing jewels and such. It couldn't spawn in the equipment itself. This way the player could "dress" himself for normal gameplay and only sacrifice his killing power in his ability to customize his items, if he so wished.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: % finding magical items ....

Yeah its a solution. But still in those sockets we would prefer to use things that boost our character. A barbarian might want a socket gem of +damage, a wd and a wizard will want +mana, etc... we are still avoiding what we really want for the sake of MF.

Sorry, Its just that I cant shallow the %Mf mod, it just doesnt feel right, even if its just 2% or 5%.

I remember having Arm of King Leoric on my summoner necro, which I love to mf with him, on pits and World stone 2. I am hunting for a long time for the unique Sky Spirit pelt for my elemental druid but then I decide to equip my necro with arm of king leoric which boosts a lot my summons instead of wearing that ugly gull (I wasnt rich enough to afford a 2ISTed Ali baba). So what happens to me? I find a freaking rare sky spirit in the pits.

Nevermore I felt inclined to use the arm of king leoric even tho it was the proper weapon for my necro. Sometimes people like to say that players can make choices and all but hell... at that time I felt the game forced me to use the MF gull and the same psicological effect will happen in D3 if the MF mod is back.

Whatever blizzard decides to do with it, I just hope its not as needed as in Diablo 2, but to be honest I would like to see this just removed entirely. Then I can make choices between life, mana, skills, defense, etc... instead of some arbitrary mod that seems mandatory to enjoy one of the main goals of the game which is finding good loot.

And specially, with its removal what exactly would be lost? I cant see anything fun being lost with its removal, quite the contrary.

 

[Krugar]

Re: % finding magical items ....

And specially, with its removal what exactly would be lost? I cant see anything fun being lost with its removal, quite the contrary.

Well, if better balanced there's a certain lure to it that introduces yet another strategic element to the player choices. So I'm not exactly against it, provided it's made a less enforcing mod.

There should always be the need to choose though, Kiroptus. Just like the player must eventually choose between having more damage or better chance to hit. But in an attempt to create a less imposing %mf mod, not only %mf should be capped, but also less influential on its ability to alter drop rates.

But I do see your point too. The removal of %MF altogether doesn't shock me either. If my memory serves me right, Diablo was the first item-hunting game I have ever played that introduced the concept of %mf. I had never seen it before in much more intense item farming-games than Diablo will ever be (i'm thinking a few MUDs here) and no one missed it.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: % finding magical items ....

^Actually thats one of the problems. The PVP characters could equip all the fun stuff while PVM characters, that means characters that are geared toward Monster killing because of this: Loot. Were the ones that need to hoard MF to have good chances.

So for a PVM centric game it was really bad that PVP characters were the ones that could be using all the cool stuff.

sorry i fail to see that as a problem. If you want to hunt for items, equiping yourself with items that better you chance of finding this stuff. Hows that an issue. better that having a useless mod on something ment for pvp.

Item finding is only one aspect of the game, if all you do is mf, why do you care that you have to equip mf equipment. Is that not the point? PVM and PVP are totaly different things and in respect should not use the same gear to do the same act.

your problem is that you dont understand balance, to balance means you have to give something up to gain something. This gear is totally not ment to be awsome gear to kill stuff, it supposed to help you find items to use and trade.

example of balance would be mf gear vs pvp gear.

mf gear can find better items easier while kill stuff slower.
pvp gear can not find stuff as easy but kill stuff faster.

like i said if it gets capped or nerfed a little bit that would be fine but it is not a dumb mod, does not need to removed from items, and you should not have to socket something to recieve that modded bounus.

This is a simple as i can say it, if you want to MAGIC FIND effectivly put on MAGIC FINDING GEAR, if you want to kill stuff fast out on NON MAGIC FINDING GEAR. You have the choice what gear you equip, and what you do with a charecter, stop complaining you cant have the best of both worlds at the same time, and do what the rest of us do and try and get the stuff to do both things.

But in an attempt to create a less imposing %mf mod, not only %mf should be capped, but also less influential on its ability to alter drop rates..

sorry buddy, usually you dont say stuff to me atleast the sounds so dumb. but if blizzard would listen to the comment Magic Finding Gear would be pointless.

"hey man check out my magic finding gear, i got all this plus to my magic find, but it doesn't do anything, der!"

that would be like asking a blind man did you see that?

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: % finding magical items ....

The problem is that diablo is a game geared toward PVM and the reason to PVM is to find better loot. PVM = Item hunting.

Now why cant my, lets say, martial arts asn which has tons of leech mods, +dmg mods, and lots of things that makes her quite strong and fit her concept and playstyle, have the same chances of finding good loot while some sorc or some hammerdin that is equiped with a gull, a skulder's ire, a stealskull and a war traveler, that means, Items that dont add anything to the class, be finding better loot than I am?

And why there should be such an equip named as "Items equiped to find items"? Is it just because Diablo has it or because there is a very deep and logical reason for their existence?

 

[Bryan]

Re: % finding magical items ....

I dont want to see MF go, but it could play a smaller role.

Make it harder to come by, perhaps only by adding it via socketable etc as mentioned.

Whatever happens, I just want the team to try and find a way to get beyond running bosses and one or two areas over and over.

If they can make it beneficial to clear areas rather than focus on single monsters I'll be happy.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: % finding magical items ....

The problem is that diablo is a game geared toward PVM and the reason to PVM is to find better loot. PVM = Item hunting.

Now why cant my, lets say, martial arts asn which has tons of leech mods, +dmg mods, and lots of things that makes her quite strong and fit her concept and playstyle, have the same chances of finding good loot while some sorc or some hammerdin that is equiped with a gull, a skulder's ire, a stealskull and a war traveler, that means, Items that dont add anything to the class, be finding better loot than I am?

And why there should be such an equip named as "Items equiped to find items"? Is it just because Diablo has it or because there is a very deep and logical reason for their existence?

see instead limiting it then would you rather put on a more widescale type of items to balance it between charecters. I agree not charecter should have advantage of another charecter it pvm play.