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Faith GMB: 9 fps >> 8 fps

Discussion in 'Amazon' started by Fuzzier, Oct 27, 2006.

  1. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    Faith GMB: 9 fps >> 8 fps

    In order to achieve 8 fpa (level 13+ Fanatism) on a Faith Grand Matron Bow, one must sacrifice almost all gears to reach 95% ias (M'av's Diadem+15%ias Jewel, 20%ias amu, 20%ias gloves, 10% Nosf's Coil). While 9 fps only needs 60% ias.
    What's the difference between 8 fpa & 9 fpa?
    With the same amount of dex, base damage and ed%, 9 fps only does 1/72, or 1.39% less damage over time than 8 fpa; and both do 8/2 strafe. And this 1.39% 'weakness' can easily get compensated by adding additional damage, ed%, piercing and/or using Atma's Scarab.
    So in my opinion, achieving 8 fpa for a Faith GMB is a complete waste of effort, 9 fpa does much much better.
     
  2. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well, I did the wrong math...
    (1/8-1/9)/(1/8) = 1/9.
    9 fps does 1/9, or 11.1% less damage over time than 8 fpa.
    But still, this is easily compensated, and 9 fps is much much better than 8 fpa.
     
  3. crawlingdeadman

    crawlingdeadman Diabloii.Net Member

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    there's also the 45ias/ed% helm rout which would make the difference in damage greater. if you're talking about pvp, however. there's no skimping on speed faster attacks could lock your opponent into fhr/block/dodge animation or get you that last arrow in that kills them but then again your probably not using strafe in duels...
     
  4. Leohappy

    Leohappy Diabloii.Net Member

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    iirc, there isn't a significant difference between 9/2 strafe & 8/2 strafe as seen in arrow sequences:
    9/2 |4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+5 | 50
    8/2 |4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+4 | 58

    you also have some weird ias calculations up there as you generally need about 50% ias to reach maximum strafe speed on a faith GMB, for a 9/2 strafe you need about 35% ias (these depend a little on auralvl)
    95% ias is needed for 7fpa multi/ga on a gmb

    while your logic makes sense, faith bows really shine when it comes to 7fpa guided arrows and multishots, not strafing (high strafe speeds can be reached with much slower bows as well)
     
  5. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    If anybody tell you Amazon can reach 7fpa for a bow normal attack, they're wrong.
    It's very simple, Amazon bow normal attack animation has 14 frames, and (EIAS+SIAS-WSM) is capped at 175%, so you can by far reach 14/1.75=8 fpa.
    Strafe, as those guys at AmazonBasin made some confusing calculations, I really cannot tell you which one is right, but I'll try to explain to you. I made a speed calculation myself, based on the EXACT information on Amazon Zeal Attack Speed (frame sequence is generated and examined). While most others' calculations are based on approximated equations (not only weapon speed, but also FHR, FBR and FCR which are 1 frame shorter than my calculation). The rest got their results by testing in pvp mode, but you probably know that before the article (Amazon Zeal Attack Speed), some guys claimed there was a 7/2 Strafe, but indeed not.
    Why they make the frames 1 frame shorter? Because the article says the last frame is never displayed, instead, the first frame of the next animation is displayed. However, the article also points out at the very beginning that the game does not increment frame counter in the first frame, so this shortened frame is added back. (i.e. Amazon normal bow attack has 14 frames, here the simplified frame sequence: in the first frame the frame conter remains 0, frame counter is then incremented by 1 before each frame, the game displays the frames until the frame counter is less than 14, so all in all the simplified frame sequence is 0,1,...,13, you see we still get 14 frames, not 13 frames).
    Another approximation arises from the Rollback mechanism. While the article says very clearly that rollback is always used, and rollback for normal attack is set to 0. However, it seems that none have ever acknowledged such information before. Adding in rollback, many existing ias requirements of fpa breakpoints are lower than my calculation.

    Here's my speed breakpoints tables (well, you don't have to believe these, though):
     
  6. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    Here's on example why 9 fps >> 8fps.
    Lvl90 Amazon with Act2 Might+Pride Merc.
    (the calculation ingores miss, critical strike, deadly strike, open wounds, crushing blow, piercing and elemental damage, since they're either proportional, unpredictable or trivial to the calculated damage)

    Setup for 8fps:
    Arms: Faith Grand Matron Bow (Lvl13~15 Fanatism)
    Head: M'avina's True Sight + 15/40 Jewel
    Torso: Fortitude
    Hands: Laying of Hands
    Belt: Nosferatu's Coil
    Feet: Gore Rider
    Neck: The Cat's Eye
    Ring0: Raven Frost
    Ring1: Manald Heal
    DEX: 270
    Total ED%=1354~1463%, vsUndead=1429~1538%, vsDemon=1704~1813%.
    Dmg=2682~2883, vsUndead=2821~3022, vsDemon=3328~3529.
    Dmg/sec=8383~9011, vsUndead=8815~9444, vsDemon=10401~11029.
    (Level 22 Strafe will add 202 to average Dmg)

    Setup for 9 fps:
    Arms: Faith Grand Matron Bow (Lvl12~15 Fanatism)
    Head: Giant Skull + 15/40 Jewelx2
    Torso: Fortitude
    Hands: Laying of Hands
    Belt: Nosferatu's Coil
    Feet: War Travaler
    Neck: Atma's Scarab
    Ring0: Raven Frost
    Ring1: Manald Heal
    DEX: 295 (WarTravaler gives 10 str & 10 vit, while Giant Skull gives averagely 30 str, Cat's Eye's 25 dex is substracted, so 25 more dex)
    Total ED%=1402~1528%, vsUndead=1477~1603%, vsDemon=1752~1878%.
    Dmg=3071~3329, vsUndead=3224~3482, vsDemon=3787~4045.
    Dmg/sec=9598~10403, vsUndead=10078~10883, vsDemon=11835~12640.
    (Level 22 Strafe will add 224 to average Dmg)

    9fps is more applicable since 8fps is not achievable for an unlucky Faith (level 12 Fanatism). 9fps will averagely do [(3071+3229)-(2682+2883)]/(2682+2883)=15% more damage than 8 fps in normal attack. Not to metion the damage potential intruduced by Atma's Scarab.
     
  7. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    Yes, the difference in speed of 9/2 and 8/2 Strafe is trivial.
    9/2 Strafe:
    Pro: more gear freedoms for 20% less ias requirement, thus can use +piercing, +ed% gears to easily beat the damage ouput of 8/2 Strafe.
    Con: can only reach 10 fpa normal attack/multishot speed, that's 10% (vs 9fpa) or 20% (vs 8fps) less damage over time, and this lost amount of damge is huge and can hardly be compensated by gears (razortail is a competitor, but piercing doesn't help much in boss killing because of the nerfed guided arrow in v1.1x).



     
  8. tinncann25

    tinncann25 Diabloii.Net Member

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    If you are talking about pvp, as cdm said, the fastest frame is essential.
     
  9. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    No. I have little experience in PvP.



     
  10. KremBanan

    KremBanan Diabloii.Net Member

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    For PvM, reaching the last breakpoint isnt 'necesarry', but useful. You will clear for example Chaos Sanctuary alot faster with the last Multishot-bp.
     
  11. ToThePoint

    ToThePoint Diabloii.Net Member

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    huh?
    oh right, you mean strafe 'normal' attack which isn't normal ttack so doesn't affect multi/GA.
     
  12. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    You didn't understand what I meant. I've given an example above.
    You see 9fps build can do much more damage than 8fps build (I can use Atma's Scarab instead of The Cat's Eye and make other equipments more damage oriented thanks for the lowered ias requirements. And Atma's Scarab really shines in PvM).



     
  13. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    :scratch: Don't quite understand what you mean.
    8/2 and 9/2 strafe difference:
    8/2 10 arrow strafe takes 8+2*9=26 frames.
    9/2 10 arrow strafe takes 9+2*9=27 frames.
    so averagely in each frame, there're 10/26 or 10/27 arrows shot, thus the difference is (10/26-10/27)/(10/27)=1/26=3.85%, or 9/2 strafe do 3.85% less damage over time than 8/2 strafe. All the 9 following attacks takes the same amount of frames, thus the difference is trivial.

    8fpa and 9fpa Normal/Multi/GA difference:
    (1/8-1/9)/(1/8)=1/8=12.5%, the difference is huge, but 9 fpa can beat this and archieve 15% more power by using Giant Skull & War Travaler, and Atma's Scarab extends the damage potential way further (I didn't use Anni & Hellfire in the builds which benefits 9 fpa build more for its higher weapon damage, and there may be even better builds).
    But 10fpa is way too slow, it does 20% less dmg over time than 8fpa, or 10% less than 9fpa, and this amount is too huge to get comensated by gear freedoms.



     
  14. Yossarian

    Yossarian Diabloii.Net Member

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    This definately had a large effect on your calculations.

     
  15. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    There're something more.
    I didn't include that 5% Lv2 Amplie thing in my calculation, but I'm sure this is the key to defeat 8fpa counterpart :thumbsup:.
     
  16. ToThePoint

    ToThePoint Diabloii.Net Member

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    you say you cant get a 7frame normal attack.
    you are talking about strafe though which doesn't use normal attack so cant get 7frame ok

    afaik GA/multi are based on repeated normal attacks so are unaffected by the zeal type discoveries so 7frame is reachable as always thought.



     
  17. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    No.
    The approximated equations used by most people were originally presented in that article.
    The difference between strafe & normal attack is that they use different rollbacks: strafe uses 50, while normal attack uses 0. The game uses a unified routine (according to the article), thus there's really not that much difference between strafe & normal attack.
    It doesn't matter whether GA/Multi are based on zeal type or non-zeal type. Amazon's bow normal attack animation has 14 frames, and the internally used speed increase (EIAS+SIAS-WSM) is capped at 175%, so you can only reach 14/1.75=8 frames, not 7 frame.
    Approximated equations are also used in FHR, FBR, FCR calculations, resulting 1 less frame than my calculations.
    People get 7 frame because most of them use approximated equations, not by generating & examining the sequence of frame counters (simulating what the game does). And the "minus 1" in approximated equations is based on the description that "the last frame of the animation is not displayed".
    8 "minus 1" (the last frame is not displayed) equals to 7, thus we can reach 7 frames, is that it? There're 3 problems:
    1) "The last frame is not displayed" is not accurate. The last frame means the frame in which the frame counter becomes no less than the total animation length, and the animation ends, the first frame of the next animation is displayed in this frame. The approximated equations just use inaccurate round up/down and a brutal "minus 1".
    2) The first frame doesn't increment the frame counter (it remains 0), thus we count from 0, not from 1. This adds back 1 frame.
    3) Rollback mechanisim isn't acknowledged in most approximated equations.
    Other people do tests in pvp mode to get the breakpoints. Even though some have made mistakes like 7/2 strafe, it is still a trustworthy approach besides approximated equations. If anyone've tested bow speed, please let us know!



     
  18. ToThePoint

    ToThePoint Diabloii.Net Member

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    you are just repeating yourself
    a few points

    strafe and normal attack are not the same
    that article explains both
    your initial maths is wrong as you cannot just compare 'initial frames' of 9 and 8 as you have to compare full cycles.

    eias part is capped at 75% not 175, even if it was capped at 175% you cant derive a max frame of 8 from 14 as its not linear so 14/1.75 is out the window.

    normal attack has a rollback of 100 which cancels out in the (100-rollback)/100 stage so no unusual happenings occur ie its the old breakpoints and 7frame possible for GA/multi



     
  19. ToThePoint

    ToThePoint Diabloii.Net Member

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    double post but cant edit : damn gf 'discussions'
    ignore the math for 9vs8 comment - i assumed you were talking about strafe only as thats all the no7frame applies to imo.

    ps i guess this is imo, i rarely bother looking at zon forums as relevant info is old for me.
     
  20. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier Diabloii.Net Member

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    Wrong. The final ias used internally is capped at 175%. eias is calculated from ias which suffers diminishing returns, eias=120*ias/(120+ias), thus eias is capped at 120%, not 75%.
    Wrong. I generate & examine the sequence of frame counters rather than use some approximated equations.
    Wrong. It is Zeal that has a rollback of 100, not normal attack. I'm sure you cannot normal attack as fast as Zeal.
    I appologize. I'm talking about normal attack, not strafe. Although a build for 9fpa normal attack will clearly beat 8fpa counterparts in Strafe. I admit that I didn't make this clear in the title.
    Wrong. Zon forum information is not old, many people keep contributing to this forum. I guess what I'm talking about is new to most of you, and contradicts to most of your traditional concepts, so you cannot just accept it right now, but you also refuse to face it with reasoning.
    I suggest you read the article more thoroughly before you start flaming, still you don't have to believe me.
     

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