faith against wf + merc faith
- Thread starter igb81
- Start date
Leohappy
Diabloii.Net Member
Compare these two situations:
Rogue merc w/Faith15 + WF @ lvl 90:
35-519 dmg for 277avg
+144% ed party bonus from Faith
Might merc + Faith 15 GMB @ lvl 90:
60-309 dmg for 184avg
+288% ed bonus from Faith
+210% ed bonus from lvl.18 might
I'm pretty sure might merc with Faith is a better combo, but WF does have a free socket, so I'm not sure how much Ohm or 40-15 would help here. Also GMB has lower str requirements than WF, so that's an extra 26 free points bonus for Faith GMB. It also depends on how much dex your zon has etc. Too lazy to finish all the math right now.
Also don't forget that might merc can hold Pride runeword, which gives 16-20 concentration aura, adding a further 285%-345% ed.
Rogue merc w/Faith15 + WF @ lvl 90:
35-519 dmg for 277avg
+144% ed party bonus from Faith
Might merc + Faith 15 GMB @ lvl 90:
60-309 dmg for 184avg
+288% ed bonus from Faith
+210% ed bonus from lvl.18 might
I'm pretty sure might merc with Faith is a better combo, but WF does have a free socket, so I'm not sure how much Ohm or 40-15 would help here. Also GMB has lower str requirements than WF, so that's an extra 26 free points bonus for Faith GMB. It also depends on how much dex your zon has etc. Too lazy to finish all the math right now.
Also don't forget that might merc can hold Pride runeword, which gives 16-20 concentration aura, adding a further 285%-345% ed.
yeah my zon, when it was alive :hanky:
it used a faith hydra bow, and fort, and the merc using dragon dream and pride, it did 7k base damage,with out charms, only items and in the end with all the charms i had rolled did a 9k guided arrow,
it used
fiath
fort
wt
2 soc giant skull with 2 15 ias juwls
highlords
2 ravens
nos coil
and+3 20 ias bow gloves
was a good dueler until i lag spiked just outside town then some **Edited by Dacar** killed me
moved on and remaking now though hopefully i might be ableto maek it as good as it was
it used a faith hydra bow, and fort, and the merc using dragon dream and pride, it did 7k base damage,with out charms, only items and in the end with all the charms i had rolled did a 9k guided arrow,
it used
fiath
fort
wt
2 soc giant skull with 2 15 ias juwls
highlords
2 ravens
nos coil
and+3 20 ias bow gloves
was a good dueler until i lag spiked just outside town then some **Edited by Dacar** killed me
moved on and remaking now though hopefully i might be ableto maek it as good as it was
Dacar92
Moderator: Community, D2 Zon, DH, Inc Clan Officer
rawrj said:yeah my zon, when it was alive :hanky:
it used a faith hydra bow, and fort, and the merc using dragon dream and pride, it did 7k base damage,with out charms, only items and in the end with all the charms i had rolled did a 9k guided arrow,
it used
fiath
fort
wt
2 soc giant skull with 2 15 ias juwls
highlords
2 ravens
nos coil
and+3 20 ias bow gloves
was a good dueler until i lag spiked just outside town then some **Edited by Dacar** killed me
moved on and remaking now though hopefully i might be ableto maek it as good as it was
Please watch the language. Thanks
You are forgetting that with 500 dex & fortitute as well as laying of hands all get multiplied by the much higher average max damage of the WF compared to the faith. I also use ias/ed jewel so the difference is bigger than your example. figure 100 more average on wf + dex,fort bonus = 900 average + ed% to demons = 1250 more average. If you multiply the 500% extra ed in your situation * 184, that's less than 1000. sit down and actually do the math and you will see.Leohappy said:
I tried both and Wf is much more powerfull. I do not have a pride so that would definately change things.
this is obviously PvM.
OK. I did the math for my level 92 zon. Either of these should be multi zons so I included nothing for skill ed%. Both will hit 8 frame multi at about 50% ias. My wf is socketed with 15% ias/ 30% ed jewel. MIN = 38 AND MAX = 545 ON WEAPON.
ZON HAS 500 DEX, FORTITUDE, LAYING OF HANDS.
WF ASSUMING 144% PARTY DAMAGE FROM FAITH ON MERC
(REGULAR / DEMONS)
MIN = 396 / 529
MAX = 5,689 / 7,597
AVG = 3,042 / 4,063
FAITH MIN = 60 AND MAX = 309 ON WEAPON.
SAME GEAR AND ASSUMING LEVEL 18 MIGHT = 210% ED AND LEVEL 15 FANATICISM = 288% ED. SAME GEAR AND 500 DEX.
(REGULAR / DEMONS)
MIN = 838 / 1048
MAX = 4,319 / 5,401
AVG = 2,578 / 3,224
NOW ADD PRIDE LEVEL 18 (AVERAGE) = 315% ED
(REGULAR / DEMONS)
MIN = 1,027 / 1,237
MAX = 5,293 / 6,374
AVG = 3,160 / 3,805
As you can see, without pride, the damage numbers are not even close and WF with faith merc wins. Adding pride to a might merc and faith setup wins by a hair but still does not top the WF setup when it comes to demons. When your merc gets lost with the WF set up, you lose some ed% but a lot of your attack speed which is annoying. With the faith setup, when you lose your merc you maintaine your fire speed but damage drops considerably. Far less annoying this way.
War travlers and max damage charms will increase damage more in the case of the faith set up compared to the WF as they will be hit by more modifiers.
If war travlers would add 100 to min for the WF setup, then they would add about 135 to the faith setup without pride and about 166 with pride. These items could help to close the gap.
As I said earlier, WF with faith act 1 merc is a great chaos runner as merc rarely gets lost and never dies to IM. Other than that, I prefer not to lose my speed once merc gets lost so I like to carry faith and use a might merc with reapers as I do not have a pride. If you are partying with hammer pally's, then I would always prefer the WF as once the high level concentration hits your Char screen, your damage numbers can get obsene.
ZON HAS 500 DEX, FORTITUDE, LAYING OF HANDS.
WF ASSUMING 144% PARTY DAMAGE FROM FAITH ON MERC
(REGULAR / DEMONS)
MIN = 396 / 529
MAX = 5,689 / 7,597
AVG = 3,042 / 4,063
FAITH MIN = 60 AND MAX = 309 ON WEAPON.
SAME GEAR AND ASSUMING LEVEL 18 MIGHT = 210% ED AND LEVEL 15 FANATICISM = 288% ED. SAME GEAR AND 500 DEX.
(REGULAR / DEMONS)
MIN = 838 / 1048
MAX = 4,319 / 5,401
AVG = 2,578 / 3,224
NOW ADD PRIDE LEVEL 18 (AVERAGE) = 315% ED
(REGULAR / DEMONS)
MIN = 1,027 / 1,237
MAX = 5,293 / 6,374
AVG = 3,160 / 3,805
As you can see, without pride, the damage numbers are not even close and WF with faith merc wins. Adding pride to a might merc and faith setup wins by a hair but still does not top the WF setup when it comes to demons. When your merc gets lost with the WF set up, you lose some ed% but a lot of your attack speed which is annoying. With the faith setup, when you lose your merc you maintaine your fire speed but damage drops considerably. Far less annoying this way.
War travlers and max damage charms will increase damage more in the case of the faith set up compared to the WF as they will be hit by more modifiers.
If war travlers would add 100 to min for the WF setup, then they would add about 135 to the faith setup without pride and about 166 with pride. These items could help to close the gap.
As I said earlier, WF with faith act 1 merc is a great chaos runner as merc rarely gets lost and never dies to IM. Other than that, I prefer not to lose my speed once merc gets lost so I like to carry faith and use a might merc with reapers as I do not have a pride. If you are partying with hammer pally's, then I would always prefer the WF as once the high level concentration hits your Char screen, your damage numbers can get obsene.
Leohappy
Diabloii.Net Member
I can definitely thank you for the job you did, but I'd like to point out a few things that need to be considered that are not included in your calculations:
1. I don't think 500 dex is a representative value for most bowzons out there. 300-350 dex is a better one, as most people like to have at least 100 vit on their bowzons to avoid 1 hit kills.
2. Faith GMB has lower str. requirements than WF (WF=134, GMB=108), so that's another 26 free points in favor of Faith.
3. Faith provides a bonus of 4-5 extra skills to the bow tree(assuming that 3skill GMB is used), and 1-2 to passive tree. While it's hard to assess impact on damage(if any), strafe does get a 5% bonus to damage / skill level when used.
4. Faith also provides ITD mod. Again it's hard to assess the effect of this, but hitting more often certainly helps the damage some. WF zon has to use Demon Limb to achieve good hitting chances, reducing secondary equipment options.
5. Last but not least, Merc and Valk definitely get a better damage boost when Might+Faith+(Conc) are in use.
1. I don't think 500 dex is a representative value for most bowzons out there. 300-350 dex is a better one, as most people like to have at least 100 vit on their bowzons to avoid 1 hit kills.
2. Faith GMB has lower str. requirements than WF (WF=134, GMB=108), so that's another 26 free points in favor of Faith.
3. Faith provides a bonus of 4-5 extra skills to the bow tree(assuming that 3skill GMB is used), and 1-2 to passive tree. While it's hard to assess impact on damage(if any), strafe does get a 5% bonus to damage / skill level when used.
4. Faith also provides ITD mod. Again it's hard to assess the effect of this, but hitting more often certainly helps the damage some. WF zon has to use Demon Limb to achieve good hitting chances, reducing secondary equipment options.
5. Last but not least, Merc and Valk definitely get a better damage boost when Might+Faith+(Conc) are in use.
You are welcome for the numbers. I will address each of your points.Leohappy said:
1. Softcore I think more bowazons have around 450 dex and 500 is not that tough. Gear should & charms should put you at between 650 and 800 life. You will kill most everything before anything gets near you anyway.
2. It appears that you get about 26 more dex points but probably less. On your way up, you inevidably spend str points to wear gear before level 70 when you can equip an annihilus. I know that I had my war travlers on way earlier than that and my annihilus gives 19 to all attributes. Rarely will anyone end up fith a final str of 108 with end game equipment unless they planned it absolutely perfectly.
3. Forget strafe. Either build should be multi as 8 frame multi kills way faster than 9/2 or 8/2 strafe (really the same thing. only 1 frame difference per cycle). This has been discussed many times and those who have tried both know exactly what I am talking about. As a matter of fact, I could build a 9/2 straffer with a WF using fortitude, might merc and pride polearm which would smoke an 8/2 faith straffer with the same merc. Damage would be way higher with knockback and I would have your strong merc. This would have the highest Character screen damage of any of these builds. Still would not be as fast of a killer as a multi build.
4. What secondary equipment? If you are rich enough to put either build together, you are not going hybrid (in which case you need 156 str for SS or any monarch). If you are hybrid, throw the 500 dex in the garbage anyway. What would you prefer on switch rather than demon limb? Points in Magic arrow or cold tree will take care of your immunities for you.
5. Merc definately gets a boost but to tell you the truth...in both builds, the merc is only there for the aura's. With either build, you do 99.9% of the killing anyway. The point becomes moot.
I personally would rather carry the faith myself as I hate to drop speed when he disappears. I think this is the biggest reason to go with an act 2 merc. I have 2 faiths and 1 of each build. I can definately see the quicker kill speed with the WF/faith combo but mostly use the other build for the reason above. Like I said, Act 1 faith merc with WF on amazon makes a sick chaos runner. Now if I could only teleport with the same gear, I would choose the act 1 merc every time.
Left something big out...
WF has 20% ias built in. If shaeled that's 40% and in my case 35%. I can hit 7 frame multi with only 60% more ias. LoH, cats eye, tgods vigor and um'd andarials vissage is what I wore for max killing/searching for charms/socketables (Have not played them in a while. HC only now). For MF, I kept the LoH which gave me 8 frame and wore topazed shako, upped goldwrap and rare amulet with +skills, MF, resists.
Basically, with the possible ias on WF you can hit 7 frame multi with faith on merc while still having lots of gear flexibility. With faith/fortitude you have very limited gear choices for 7 frames. The 7 frame WF was absolutely sick.
WF has 20% ias built in. If shaeled that's 40% and in my case 35%. I can hit 7 frame multi with only 60% more ias. LoH, cats eye, tgods vigor and um'd andarials vissage is what I wore for max killing/searching for charms/socketables (Have not played them in a while. HC only now). For MF, I kept the LoH which gave me 8 frame and wore topazed shako, upped goldwrap and rare amulet with +skills, MF, resists.
Basically, with the possible ias on WF you can hit 7 frame multi with faith on merc while still having lots of gear flexibility. With faith/fortitude you have very limited gear choices for 7 frames. The 7 frame WF was absolutely sick.