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Extremely disappointed

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Wolfpaq777, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Extremely disappointed

    So I read the rant about why D3 won't be around for 10 years, found it mostly amusing until I noticed the soul-bound comment which sent off alarm bells in my head. Soulbinding is for wow & lame mmo's, I thought, surely there is no possible way they could take this clunky, annoying, freedom restricting, obvious time-sink mechanic and bring it into Diablo would they?

    So I headed on over to our awesome wiki, and sure enough...

    Oh so only the items that matter will be soulbound? That's reassuring, it's pretty awesome to provide negative incentive to equip the best gear that you find, that's fun game-play right there!

    I can understand the desire to take high end items out of the economy, and I'm actually ok with that. However, the fact that they are not planning to make the items bind on account is what upsets me. If I find the godliest of godly epic staff of magical dominance, worth more than all of the gold and all of the items I've obtained on my account so far, I of course would equip it onto my wizard. However, a few months down the road when i've tried every feasible wizard spec and want to see what it's like to have that item on a witch doctor, I should be able to transfer it and find out. Say expansion #1 comes out and one of the new characters is also a caster? I should be able to drop all my highest level, hard earned caster gear into the shared stash and tweak the living hell out of him if I so desire.

    I understand wanting to create a robust economy and the desire to keep it from stagnating, but the fact is, without constant mmo-style content generation the economy will stagnate no matter what. I don't think it is worth implementing mechanics that take part of the fun out of the game, just to prolong the inevitable.
     
  2. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    there is another topic that has been talking about BoE for awhile now. i am one of the people that hopes this wiki info is outdated and wrong now but there are plenty of people who want binding in the game
     
  3. DivineSweety

    DivineSweety Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    Well no more late night trading for me then :( .... damn that was like 70% of the game for me barting :( .... ive heard this befor but i hope they change their mind .... everyone cross your fingers :D
     
  4. Nekora

    Nekora Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    Uh, that's just it, DivineSweety. Trading will STILL exist. In fact, it will likely exist at a higher level, thriving more, because of this decision. There is no question that BoE to character is better for a long-term economy. It stimulates demand, stabilizes supply, and ensures the long-term value of items.

    The disadvantage to this is that items essentially become 'consumable' resources, rather than durable ones, which can be invested in, and you can later get the value back out of your investment. This makes it so every character MUST somehow, through finding or trading, get their own best items. It is basically inconvenient for the PLAYER, saying "OK, you have this top-tier item. But your monk can use it, and your barbarian can't, because your monk had it first. If your Barbarian wants to use it, he has to find his own."

    So there's your choice. Do you want a convenient system of trading the 'best' items around your characters (Remember, lower-tier items will NOT be bind, ever), or do you want a functioning economy?

    There is always a negative incentive to equip the best gear that you find. All this does is make it more explicit. SOMEONE is going to use that gear at some point. That's why there's currency value in that gear. You can either have the gear, or you can have the currency value. Not both.

    Really, it's not even a negative incentive at all, Wolfpaq. You can either have the gear, or the currency. What do you do with the currency? Get different gear. So where's the negative incentive? Unless you're just hoarding gold and doing nothing with it, you're going to get gear and equip it at some point. The question with any particular piece of gear is, is this worth more to me equipped, or is it worth more to me in currency?

    If you're afraid of trying an item out, to see how it interacts with your build, perhaps there might be a 'timer' of some sort for binding. Maybe you can equip an item for 10 minutes, cumulatively (Timer does not restart if you take it off) before a given item binds to you. A trial period, basically.

    I'm not so sure about this. Bind to character tends to ensure that demand scales with the number of CHARACTERS in the game, rather than players. If each character needs to find their own top-tier items, that means as the long-term D3 community continues to make new characters, demand stays in proportion to those new characters.

    Now on the other hand, if it were bind to account, the long-term D3 community would simply collect one of each top-tier item and trade them around their characters as they made new ones, which means demand will bottom out once items hit a certain concentration.
     
  5. Toetag

    Toetag Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    I CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT THEY CAN MAKE A BOE FOR AN ACCOUNT. In other words, if one of your chars picks up an item, then you can give it to any other char on that account, but not to anyone else.

    Besides, making an item boe just means that you will have to replay certain content until the item you need falls. and will you people stop worrying about the likenesses to WoW. Who cares and besides whats wrong with taking certain things that are tried and true from the most successful game in history and apply it to D3? Stop worrying if this will be WoW-lite. It'll be the next installment of the franchise that we all love. Have no fear.

    Not to mention, I think that this topic may have changed by now since he brings up lvl 85 items and they have just recently stated that there will be a lvl cap of around 60. So its probably not worth worrying about just yet.
     
  6. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    As Nekora says, this decision is intended to stimulate/boost trading, not the other way around. When the best items never vanish from the (non-hardcore) economy, then there's stagnation, and no one bothers to use the nearly-best items, since the best ones keep getting found and never lost, until there are enough for everyone.

    There are a lot of unknown issues, yet. Even aside from the fact that they've probably changed their thinking on this issue several times, since that Jay Wilson quote.

    How many "highest end" items is Jay talking about? The top 1%? The top 10%? If it was only TC 90 stuff in D2, that wouldn't really make a big diff, since there are only a few items actually used/coveted in that range. If it was TC 84, 87, and 90, that's a huge diff. And of course runewords aren't in TCs, so you'd have to figure where the cutoff on those would come. (Not that D2 analogies can really work, since duping did much to pervert that economy.)

    Are they BoP? BoE? BoA? I don't see BoP working in D3, since most weapons are class-specific. Or at least unusuable by several classes. But BoE vs. BoA is a big diff; imagine you've found the best Barb axe; can you use that on just one of your barbs, or share it between 3 of them with diff builds?
     
  7. cacophony

    cacophony Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    If they want a cheap and dirty way to force more replayibility, they stick on BoE. If you allow too many hand me downs, it lowers the "gear hunting" time required to fully deck out an alt character. Also pulls more high end items out of the economy in the long run; in a BoA situation, a single player only needs one super axe for a ton of characters, and all of the other super axes that would have been bound to those extra characters are now floating around in the economy, hastening the saturation. Personally, I am willing to sacrifice a little convenience (BoA) for a better, more stable economy (BoE).


     
  8. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    i really rather the BOA over BOE, actually with all that i have said against BOE if they announced it was BOA i would stop argueing and be happy with meeting in the middle. i think BOE will just cause more respecs which i plan to never use. i much rather remake my characters even if the respec was free, just the way i like to play i guess. with the BOA system i can remake my barb 50 times if i want to without worry. i understand the need for BOE but i really believe BOA can be a good middle ground for both sides. make the top items BOA plus the removal of dupes and the D3 economy will be far better than D2 ever was
     
  9. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    Scenario: Your wizard finally hit 60, you have put together a meager set of magic find gear, and you're off killing act bosses. Staff abc drops, a top tier item, which you know because it's BoE. Excited beyond belief you equip it immediately to see how awesome it is. Little did you know...

    1) The staff you found could easily be traded for ring y, amulet x and boots z, which combine to give you a substantially bigger upgrade than going from your original staff to staff abc. Oops.

    2) The staff you found is the best in the game for an obscure but increasingly popular witch doctor build. There are several other wizard staves that are a substantially bigger upgrade and more common than this one. Oops.

    3) The staff you found is actually worse for you than the staff that you had equipped, for some reason that wasn't immediately obvious. Oops.

    There are dozens of variations of these 3 negative incentives that I can think of off the top of my head. You should never be forced to hesitate before equipping your fat loot. You shouldn't have to wait to get to town to check the marketplace to see what your staff could fetch before you try it out. You shouldn't have to head to the internet to see what guides are including that staff in their list of suggested gear. You shouldn't have to bust out a calculator and perform a series of complicated computations to see if in fact, equipping the staff will increase your destructive power.

    I don't know what you mean by this statement:

    In Diablo 2 there never was any reason to not equip an item you found. You put it on, if it works for you, great, if it doesn't you pass it off to a friend or an alt, or try to sell it for something better. If top items in D3 are BoE, people will be doing exactly what Blizzard devs have stated they don't want them to do: heading to the internet to find out if the item they found is worth keeping or if they should sell it. How is that fun? How is that intuitive? Yes my barb just found this cool axe that gave me a moderate increase in killing power, hop online the next day, oh really, it's the god item for a popular monk spec? I could have traded it for an axe that would have given me an enormous boost in killing power?

    That is not fun, that is lame. What is even more lame, is the economy will stagnate anyway, it is just making the game un-fun in order to delay the inevitable. BoE doesn't magically prevent stagnation, just delays it. The only thing that would completely prevent stagnation is a constant supply of new and fresh items into the game's loot tables, i.e. mmo status.

    Finally...

    This argument makes 2 assumptions that I think are extremely flawed

    1) every character will use the exact same top tier items
    2) no one will bother getting 2 or more of the same item

    Take away these baseless assumptions and BoA is every bit as good for the long term economy as BoE.

    If Blizzard seriously wants to keep the economy alive they would do well to put an end to ALL duping, botting, and online item/currency stores (which of course they miserably failed to do in WoW).



     
  10. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    I thought they hadn't decided on whether to go with BoE or BoA. I don't see a reason why they'd choose BoE over BoA anyway.
     
  11. cacophony

    cacophony Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    The second assumption is pretty accurate. W/ BoA, the incentive for a single player w/ multiple characters to have more than one of the top end gear is pretty low. W/ BoE, it becomes imperative. As Nek said, demand grows along w/ the number of actual characters.

    And comparing the botting/hacking problem in WoW to the one in D2 is like night and day; WoW has pretty mild gold/crafting materials inflation. D2 is resetting its ladder tomorrow b/c the economy is shot to hell already.

    Again, it's simple math. Gear (the "best" gear) accumulates in the economy like this -
    dG/dt = K - V
    Where K is gear accumulation (from killing monsters, crafting, etc, and is a function of gear, to boot), and V is gear destruction, through vendors and salvage.

    You need dG/dt to be pretty small (to buy time for the developers to make new content/expansions, which provide a "soft" gear reset). To do this, you need to make V actually mean something; you have to provide incentives (salvaging) or plain old just force it (BoE) in order to make the term big enough to get the job done. Otherwise, either the market gets saturated in gear way too quickly, or your K term is so damn small that gear never drops for anybody, and people leave the game.


     
  12. starrise

    starrise Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    That is a problem with the game's mechanics being obtuse, not a problem caused by binding. If a player can't understand how the game is meant to be played then what you said will occur, and regardless of the bind-status of an item you will look it up on the internet anyway to determine its value. This is a separate issue, so please don't include it in this argument.


     
  13. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    i honestly see people making a lot less characters with BOE instead of BOA
     
  14. Sass

    Sass Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    The reasoning?
     
  15. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    just think people will favor respec more than rebuild if they cant bring their best items with them
     
  16. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    It's actually pretty inaccurate. In D2 it is very common for people to have multiples of the best uniques & runewords and it has no binding of any sort. Why would diablo 3 be any different with BoA?

    Does it matter if one has "better botting" than the other? I certainly didn't make that argument. We can agree that all botting/online sales have a negative impact on the economy. Your math is pretty good, but I don't think you understand, even with zero bots you need to remember that millions of people are going to be playing this game dozens of hours / week. Even if K is very small, and every item is BoE (high V), the economy will become saturated before Blizzard can release an expansion unless K is too small to be fun enough for anyone. So what? Prices fall, casuals can afford good gear. I don't see how this is a problem. Even if the convenience of BoA makes that happen faster (which I'm still unconvinced of, given the very faulty reasoning behind the only argument for that in this thread) I don't care, it's not worth the many, many problems with BoE items.

    Complicated game mechanics != obtuse game mechanics. Complicated mechanics are a good thing because it gives us things to think about when considering different gear combinations / builds.

    Also, your argument only applies to the last sentence of the 4 you quoted. Please don't dismiss an entire paragraph of my argument if you're only going to try to argue against 1/4th of it.



     
  17. elganame

    elganame Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    I think we are leaving once more some things out.

    Example...You have your monk and your up to get the best tier end game epic item.

    Now, what about getting the recipe and make the item, in D3 i doubt that the best items will be droped like candys in wonderland

    Question is, can recipes be traded in BoE? If we can, than BoE shouldnt be a big problem only that finding a high valued item will be a realy big luck strike if you hit it with the best aligned character.

    I still think that the whole idea is to focus on recipes, and if you have thatttt imposible luck on your side, you can have that drop that matches perfectly with your character.

    But the main idea is for you to sell it and craft the damn thing!
     
  18. Sass

    Sass Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    But you can't use a respec to rebuild.


     
  19. cacophony

    cacophony Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    We don't know that yet. We haven't heard definitively whether respecs are for a skill or two or for a complete and utter reboot. And now w/ the unknown passives situation, we don't know how that'll work, either.


     
  20. Nekora

    Nekora Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Extremely disappointed

    Perhaps you can, but the implication is that the costs or disadvantages to doing so would be somehow prohibitive. Bashiok mentioned a strong incentive to roll a new character.

    Anyway. On to Wolfpaq:

    That's why I suggested the 'binding timer' of 10 minutes cumulative to bind, so you could 'try it out'. It even has a lore-logic explanation, that the item takes a certain amount of time to attune to your soul!

    Regardless, even without that, I don't see the big deal. By the time you get to level 55, you should have a PRETTY good idea of what is good for your build or not. You can see what kind of modifiers the staff has on it. I don't see why anyone would be on the fence of 'Oh is this good for me, or isn't it?"

    If you're really paranoid about some of the exact scenarios you mentioned, though, all of that still existed in Diablo 2. The difference is that you could change your mind. Being able to know all of this stuff is what separates savvy traders from everyone else.

    D3 is just making the choice 'up front'. You either have the item or the currency. You can't have one, then the other. In D3, you only ever had the item or the currency, but allowed you to have one, then the other when you changed your mind.

    How does this encourage 'looking up items'? You should know by now what items are good for your build. It's generally not rocket science. Values should also be relatively predictable. There's no reason for them not to be. You might see an item that might be moderately good for you, but you know it might be awesome for someone else who has a use for Willpower, and you don't want to stack it. Again, it's not rocket science, telling which items are good and which aren't. It might be a little more nuanced than in D2, but it's still not unintuitive.

    In any game with an economy, gaming the economy to its fullest is a game unto itself. If you want to make sure you always get the best end of any deal? Become trade-savvy. It sounds like you would want to. If you're content with receiving average deals, all you have to do is be careful and use the marketplace/auction house/whatever D3 will use.

    Just because items now bind doesn't mean things are fundamentally different. It means you have to think "Do I want to use the item, or do I want to cash it in towards another item?". Yes, you can't just pop that sucker on there without thinking. But saying that there's an incentive not to equip good items is silly. The whole game is about equipping good items. If you don't equip an item, and sell it instead, you're gaining gold which can be used towards the purchase of a DIFFERENT item that you WILL equip.

    Unless, of course, you're just hoarding gold for the sake of it.

    I never made assumption 1. Basically what I was saying is...let's say you have a set of...say...20 possible top-tier staffs for a wizard (Different combinations on Rares, for instance, and maybe a couple uniques thrown in there). Some of these are good for AoE focused builds, some of these are good for single-target focused builds, and some of these are good for utility-focused builds. Perhaps some of them work in different ways.

    Let's say I collect 6 of them, and bindings are BoA. I suddenly have 6 good weapons, 1 of which is probably top-tier, or close to it, for every possible wizard build. Now, no matter how many wizards I make...I never need to buy another high-end staff again, ever. The story repeats with different item types and different people. Overall demand in the economy drops. Economy collapses.

    If, now, the system is BoE, then if I make a new wizard in a different spec, that wizard has to find and 'consume' at least one high-end staff in order to get his top-tier weapon. Demand increases with how many characters are created. Economy does not collapse because demand doesn't bottom out.

    Assumption number 2, on the other hand, is entirely accurate. I can't see any reason I wouldn't just have one of the same 'style' of top-tier monk armor at a time. Why have 2 monk armors or 2 monk staffs suited for [insert build here]?

    Finally...

    Where do you get this? This is an entirely baseless claim. If BoE keeps demand up (By making new characters need items) and keeps supply stable (By removing items from the economy), where does the statnation come in?

    You don't need new items. You need to keep supply and demand overall stable. BoA keeps supply a bit more stable, but demand dies. BoE keeps both supply and demand stable. No economic collapse. Done.


     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010

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