Exploration ... the new experiance

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

The thing with D2 is the sheer amount of data available about TC levels, ilevels, drop calcs etc etc. That's going to be lacking in D3. Especially if Blizzard don't release the information and it's down to player testing to crunch those numbers.

But wasn't this pretty much what happened in D2?
As soon as the mpq files contents became accessible, all current information on drops and TC mechanics became the result of player analysis, testing and number crushing. We have a few members on these forums that "specialized" in analyzing and interpreting the data on these files.

...

I'm for a system that resembles D2 TCs in its ability to tie drops to certain monsters. Again this is an issue of how I like to play the game an so again I'm forced to disagree with the opinion the game should open as much as possible the range of monsters for item farming.

With two, three, maybe even just one, years of Diablo 3 on my back, I'm pretty sure I will be less tolerant to adventuring, questing and endless item searching across the whole game maps. There's some sort of threshold that, once passed, turns adventure into repetitive boredom too. No manner of randomization can change this. Especially when randomization on this case can only be a limited preset number of base scenarios being fed into a RNG.

When it comes the time the main objective for the player is achievement in the form of items owned, anything that unnecessarily slows him down from this process becomes a grievance and source for complaints.

I really think that item hunting should stay away from the concept of adventuring and exploration. This is not to say one shouldn't be rewarded by exploring the game, doing quests, or other sort of similar tasks. For one, I think that "first kills" should be much better rewarded than they were in the past, for instance. But I still have trouble understanding -- no one could explain to me yet -- why is that there is this notion that for exploration and adventuring to work, one must sacrifice the concept of mob and area item farming.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

But wasn't this pretty much what happened in D2?
As soon as the mpq files contents became accessible, all current information on drops and TC mechanics became the result of player analysis, testing and number crushing. We have a few members on these forums that "specialized" in analyzing and interpreting the data on these files.

There might be ways to make that data inaccessible to normal users or even those who are techy.. i'm not a tech nerd so i don't really know much about the subject .. still think something like that could be done.

I'm for a system that resembles D2 TCs in its ability to tie drops to certain monsters. Again this is an issue of how I like to play the game an so again I'm forced to disagree with the opinion the game should open as much as possible the range of monsters for item farming.

With two, three, maybe even just one, years of Diablo 3 on my back, I'm pretty sure I will be less tolerant to adventuring, questing and endless item searching across the whole game maps. There's some sort of threshold that, once passed, turns adventure into repetitive boredom too. No manner of randomization can change this. Especially when randomization on this case can only be a limited preset number of base scenarios being fed into a RNG.

If you can live with the boredom of a process that's extremely repetitive and tedious by it's very own nature then you will be fine with adventuring no matter how boring it gets.

And Boss runs don't even have that threshold you speak off ... they are repetitive and boring from the get to go.

And speaking of a preset number of scenarios .. i did mention before it really isn't just about the number of scenarios .. but their possible combinations ... and that's a pretty large number of possibilities (like a puzzle with 10 pieces that can be combined in a 1000 differernt ways) .. where a boss run is merely a single scenario that plays over and over (pretty much a single piece of a puzzle ) .. there is no comparison whatsoever.

When it comes the time the main objective for the player is achievement in the form of items owned, anything that unnecessarily slows him down from this process becomes a grievance and source for complaints.

So what !!! ... should we give players infinite life because dying slows them down .. or give everyone teleport like what Enigma did in D2 cause players don't want to waste time walking around the game ... they want to skip it to their item pinatas .... before a game caters mindlessly to its players it should be questioned why they do what they do .. like i said .. because the game was never designed with the idea of making adventuring worth it in the first place (worth it as in being interesting and varied ... besides the MFing) .. if it was like that things would have been very differernt.

I really think that item hunting should stay away from the concept of adventuring and exploration. This is not to say one shouldn't be rewarded by exploring the game, doing quests, or other sort of similar tasks. For one, I think that "first kills" should be much better rewarded than they were in the past, for instance. But I still have trouble understanding -- no one could explain to me yet -- why is that there is this notion that for exploration and adventuring to work, one must sacrifice the concept of mob and area item farming.

Why !!! ... Cause area farming and repetitive boss runs with static drop lists comes with a ton of exploits, cheapens the game, damages the economy and degenerates the end game .. that's why it needs to be nerfed heavily (as everyone knows it can't be 100% removed).


If it is nerfed and replaced with adventuring as the main method of MFing (with no trace of the static drop lists)

1-Farmers won't be able to FARM for specific items (which is their exact job .. to FARM for SPECIFIC high-end items with high demand)

2-Will solve the problem of everyone ending up with exactly the same freaking uber gear and cookie cutter builds ... everyone will get different gear and will learn how to creatively use it and modify his/her character's built to fit with it, then fine tune and maximize the character's potential with the items he/she currently has. (that's where limited respecs become a core part of the game not just some tacked on feature)

3-Which will in turn enhance trade greatly ... everyone will be getting random items and going to trade and see if someone else found the items they are looking for to trade with them (because of the removal of the static drop lists ... IMO one of the things that ruined D2 economy and inflated it)


4-With no ability to farm for a specific item you can expect the game life time to increase as nobody will be able to expect, calculate or farm for the specific items they want thus will take them a longer time to get it .... since they will have to hunt them down, go on adventures and special quests, hunt for random mini bosses in random dungeons, trade and do some meaningful effort .. something a BOT can't do.





I really never understood why should the game tell you this monster can drop item X or Z or Y ... that's making things easier for players, encourages exploitation, farming and cookie cutter builds (since everyone will have the same exact high-end items) ... and completely removes the feeling of randomness in the game .. if you can expect something and calculate it with a high degree of accuracy it doesn't feel that random anymore. (even if it is still random)

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Still after all that .. it can't be helped that Bosses must have a much higher chance of dropping better gear than your average Fallen .... still ... a good item can drop anywhere (with varying chances) since there are no static drop lists.

So while you can't farm bosses for specific exact items .. you can still farm them because they generally drop better gear more often ... but someone who likes adventuring and goes hunting demons, blood lords and <insert monster here> will still have a similar chance of getting good items since all monsters can drop good gear (even with a very low chance .. for their large numbers make things work even if they have a very low drop rates for rare items .. even as rare as items in D2 with insanely low droprates).

That's the only way to make Adventuring and Boss runs equally viable and on equal terms. (considering how exploitable boss runs are they really needed to be heavily nerfed to reach this point)

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

It's somewhat ironic that you started this thread saying this isn't the place to discuss Baal runs. But you make a point of discuss Baal runs right on your first post and eventually this is where we are right now. It seems that you can't just disconnect exploration from Item Hunting. You are just after a different type of farming. But farming is precisely what you are so desperately trying to avoid.

So what !!! ... should we give players infinite life because dying slows them down .. or give everyone teleport like what Enigma did in D2 cause players don't want to waste time walking around the game ... they want to skip it to their item pinatas .... before a game caters mindlessly to its players it should be questioned why they do what they do .. like i said .. because the game was never designed with the idea of making adventuring worth it in the first place (worth it as in being interesting and varied ... besides the MFing) .. if it was like that things would have been very differernt.

No. Diablo 2 didn't have much of that. We agree there. But there's nothing to be said of D3 yet. It's quite possible, and it's been said so, D3 will present players with more dynamic quests and other adventuring mechanisms to give players more choices for exploration. Why is that you assume, when I speak of adventuring becoming also boring, I'm not defending adventuring should exist in the game?

Why !!! ... Cause area farming and repetitive boss runs with static drop lists comes with a ton of exploits, cheapens the game, damages the economy and degenerates the end game .. that's why it needs to be nerfed heavily (as everyone knows it can't be 100% removed).

This is totally unrelated to D3 and derives only from your D2 experience of a much older game. And the first of its kind, mind you.

There's literally hundredths of things that can be done to turn mob and area runs more complex affairs and less predictable and repetitive. I've addressed some of these before on the thread discussing baal runs. It's just doesn't necessarily need to be stuck to your concept of exploration and adventuring.

You don't need to sacrifice an entire gamestyle for the sake of exploration.

1-Farmers won't be able to FARM for specific items (which is their exact job .. to FARM for SPECIFIC high-end items with high demand)

Farmers will still be farming for specific items if you make monsters drop without the concept of TCs. They will be doing what was always done: Go after the monster with the better odds.

2-Will solve the problem of everyone ending up with exactly the same freaking uber gear and cookie cutter builds ... everyone will get different gear and will learn how to creatively use it and modify his/her character's built to fit with it, then fine tune and maximize the character's potential with the items he/she currently has.

This has nothing to do with item hunting. But with a weak character building system that was the hallmark of D2. There's a big effort in changing this so that the cookie-cutter builds, while they can never be removed, are made much more numerous.

4-With no ability to farm for a specific item you can expect the game life time to increase as nobody will be able to expect, calculate or farm for the specific items they want thus will take them a longer time to get it ....

You are jumping to the conclusion this will remove the ability to farm for specific items. I tried to demonstrate it won't. And you cannot create a game based on a Item Hunting concept that throws away number crushing from the players. It's not possible because they will invariably get there from experimentation alone. But also because in order for the game to remain interesting, players will want to explore the numbers behind the game. If the game somehow successfully foiled their plans, you would get your utopic game and soon enough you would feel bored of it. Look for RPGs, not ARPGs if you are into this type of gameplay.

I'm all hears to how you suggest to hide information from players. It's not by hiding data that you will be able to avoid them figuring out where is the best place to farm for a specific item. Data cannot be hidden, for one. You underestimate players ability to reverse engineer a game. D2 data was well hidden and was pretty much hard to interpret. Look what happened. Much better is for the game to not dwell in areas it will necessarily fail and instead concentrate on those areas it can succeed.

Still after all that .. it can't be helped that Bosses must have a much higher chance of dropping better gear than your average Fallen .... still ... a good item can drop anywhere (with varying chances) since there are no static drop lists.

I'm glad we finally agree! I mean, I've been debating this for the past weak on two threads, Knight! For pete's sake! And all of a sudden this pops out of the blue from your own hand.

So while you can't farm bosses for specific exact items .. you can still farm them because they generally drop better gear more often ... but someone who likes adventuring and goes hunting demons, blood lords and <insert monster here> will still have a similar chance of getting good items since all monsters can drop good gear (even with a very low chance .. for their large numbers make things work even if they have a very low drop rates for rare items .. even as rare as items in D2 with insanely low droprates).

That's the only way to make Adventuring and Boss runs equally viable and on equal terms. (considering how exploitable boss runs are they really needed to be heavily nerfed to reach this point)

Right on!
I'm just... in awe that all of a sudden I hear you arguing for the exact same system I have so desperately tried to defend for so long.

And what are you describing here? Nothing more, nothing less, than the system in place for D2 which actually worked! Worked in such a spectacular way, it made the game a continuous success for 8 long years.

It's quite irrelevant if one wants to remove item tie-ins from the drop system. It will accomplish nothing. Players will still know where to go and soon enough will know information about drop chances that will lead them to the best boss, monster or area.

What is instead important under this concept of item farming is that there's a wider variety of farmable targets (be them areas or monsters), that farmable monsters are heavily scripted so that battles aren't repetitive but offer several elements of randomness and force the player to fight differently everytime or almost everytime, that Pindle (pindle! Not Baal. Baal is actually quite a fun run) type of runs are once and for all eradicate from the game, and that exploration and adventuring is rewarded more than it was in D2, when killing a boss for the first time was a complete frustration for most cases.

With the addition of dynamic questing, paper-chase type of quests, random quests, better and more varied area and monster randomness, a wider choice of equipment and a better design character development system, one can have everything in the same package; An exploration game and a item hunting game.

 

[PahaLukki]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

It's quite simple to make it so that the end game boss only drops proper end game boss loot for the first time it is killed by the character, then it degenerates to normal unique monster loot, so you'd always have to be helping someone who hasn't killed it yet in order to get any better chances.

But there are other ways to make it so that the game doesn't end up being an endless boss run. First of all, reduce the impact of items on a character's strength. This is the nicest way of encouraging adventuring for experience rather than just items. For if you are doing fine with what you have, why would you go participate in loot runs by bots?

I think items made less of a difference in Diablo 1 than 2, and it shows. In D1 the needed %-to-hit, to hit monsters of a certain level, drops as you level the warrior. You also need less AC for the same benefit as you level, and MOST of the character's melee damage comes from the strength of the character, and only the warrior was able to get 250 strength. Remember, in D1, no exceptionals existed, you started out with a weapon doing 2-6 damage, and the end game bastard sword was 6-15 damage, with the highest ed% in it often well below 200% (King's). There were no skills enhancing your weapon damage by hundreds of %, the strength bonus was strictly and addition to damage. So even weak weapons got the full benefit of the character's level and skill, instead of amplifying the glory of his weapon or the amplifying the suckiness of his weapon and making the character unplayable. This has happened to many a barbarian, not doing enough damage with what they have. If the weapon masteries would add a fixed amount of damage, D2 would be more balanced immediately, giving less of a value to high damage weapons because their greatness would no longer be amplified.

Thus levels made you noticeably stronger in D1. It has been said that even a short sword of haste is better than bastard sword of gore, because you only need a fast weapon to stunlock, while the damage comes from strength. Thus you chose weapons based on what type or kind of weapon you need: speed, blunt (the effect of blunt against undead was well noticeable, more so than in D2!), and in some rare cases you just needed damage. Overall the best weapon was king's sword of haste which is logical for the best weapon to be with the most added damage, to-hit and speed.

Third way to reduce boss running is to simply make it as it is in D1: killing Diablo ends the game, you don't get to pick anything up, you just watch him die and see the cinematics after. It's a whole 'nuther thing to kill Lazarus over an over again but I don't know about it's drops.

Probably the best way to reduce simple boss running is to look at D1 and ask why do players often play the early dungeon or catacombs instead of hell. Bookcases and shrines! There is something valuable worth adventuring for, even the warrior benefits from the books found and the shrines (while not all positive mind you, another bold gameplay decision from makers of D1) were able to give permanent additions to attributes. The quests in D3 fill this role nicely, but having overall better loot spread around the world also makes a difference. Books would be a good thing to bring back, but I doubt it.. I don't thinkbooks break the game because you were able to buy them from Adria. And buying takes us to..

The worth of gold. I just bought a Lord's Sword in Diablo 1 from wirt. Cost 40 000, and I had 60 000 so I grabbed it. Even Griswold sold it. That and Adria can randomly sell book of mana shield, book of fireball or any other book. The strongest spells in the game, and very respectable weapons as well (I saw Wirt sell a sword of haste, but not King's Sword of Haste so far, but it's not out of the question apparently; that would be the equal of Larzuk selling eh.. Baranar's Star or a rare of similar strength), all sold for just gold that can be accumulated through normal adventure. This was no longer so in D2, you had to gamble and that meant you didn't necessarily get anything. You might get lucky with Larzuk but more often than not the items sold in store were simply no match for all the uniques in the game and not really viable. With the advent of rares as well as more uniques overall and the existence of expectional and elite weapons, the game sort of expects you to necessarily have these and the power level of these items in totally different than normal magical, or basic weapons. I think the playability and usefulness of near base stat weapon and armor should be enhanced.

The last method I'll take also from D1. This has to do with player skill. In GW player skill comes from microing your AI friends or in multiplayer the use of your own skills and awareness of what is being thrown at you and how you counter it. I've played a lot of GW and know that it gets boring. Looking at skills recharge and being such a limited character is really pathetic, especially how melee is worked in that game (you can swing at casters but they won't interrupt casting unless you used an interrupt swing, which recharges for 10-15 seconds...). I don't want that kind of "skilled" playing in Diablo 3. Diablo is supposed to be about terrain, tactics, guarding.. a sort of divide and conquer game, at least in the original. You could make a huge difference by just employing tactics: doorways, virtual doorways by fighting near chests or barrels, retreating along the wall while stopping for a few attacks, swinging at certain tile to guard movement in that tile, stunlocking to prevent running monsters from leaving their tile, peek-a-boo tactics against following ranged monsters. Most of this was completely gone in D2. You can't even guard tiles anymore, as if any tiles existed, but the point is that by swinging at a door you are not guarding entry to that door unless your mouse specifically points to the monster you want to hit, and no longer are approaching monsters knocked back to their tile if you guard an adjacent tile to yourself and they try to walk to it and they also trigger a bonus %-to-hit while moving as well. This of course applies to the player as well, moving past a melee monster means they get an "attack of opportunity" as it is in D&D.

Other than that I think the current barbarian gameplay looks more like playing a caster class with all the thumps and explosive attacks...

 

[konnu]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I liked Fallout 3 exploration where if you'd randomly run around the desert, there would be random events.

I think blizzard said to include random events to dungeons but maybe they should make tons of them to the world too. I'm assuming the world will be like in WOW with very large areas.

I don't just mean quests, which i kinda grew to hate. but random events where world monsters would build an ambush against you or you'd surprise a resting monster camp with strong rare boss.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I don't just mean quests, which i kinda grew to hate. but random events where world monsters would build an ambush against you or you'd surprise a resting monster camp with strong rare boss.

That's exactly what Blizzard described Adventures as ... they range from random side quests to random events with no quests .... just hope they get it right XD

 

[konnu]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I'd like to see 1 more encounter type. Some encounters would randomly tag you for pvp. Offcourse you'd know of it beforehand.

That would give the griefers some targets heeh. But the difference would be that players would have the option to choose if they wanna open themselves vulnerable.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I'd like to see 1 more encounter type. Some encounters would randomly tag you for pvp. Offcourse you'd know of it beforehand.

That would give the griefers some targets heeh. But the difference would be that players would have the option to choose if they wanna open themselves vulnerable.

We don't quite know anything about how PvP will work in D3 since no details were revealed regarding it ... so it is hard to speculate about that aspect yet.

But either way ... in what way will that encounter tag you exactly ?

 

[Brandonn]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

8-Crafting notes/Recipes
(just the notion that you had to experiment endlessly in D2 in order to find combination or had to fire up your browser and open a web site with the recipes detracted greatly from the experience ... funny thing is D2 already planned recipes to be in-game items .. good idea .. but was never implemented ... maybe that's why it felt awkward .. but in D3 it could be made valuable again ... Crafting blueprints or notes could be an in-game item you need to collect and give to blacksmiths in order to craft certain items -no there are no rare ingredients collection or anything, that's the blacksmith job- so that you can't craft the best items even if there were tons of internet sites with crafting guides .. you need to adventure to earn the notes and craft the best items) .. for more about crafting see my topic here http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727334

I love crafting, but I never thought it could fit the D3 world. Having a smith make the item for you fits.

I also understand the issue with hunting ingredients. But, if all it takes is the design notes, then your just giving a crappy treasure. Not only is the treasure you just got (the design notes) not an item, you also have to go to town AND pay money for it.

So if you make it too basic, you destroy the point. For some, crafting is about farming the ingredients. But that isn't the only solution. If the smith could personalize the items you have them make for you, then the reward has more value, it's worth going back to town. Another solution is to have different types of design notes, some for the base weapon, and some for enhancements to said weapon. However this solution, if done too well, can take away from the items that drop.

Point being - I like this idea, but it has to be done right.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I love crafting, but I never thought it could fit the D3 world. Having a smith make the item for you fits.

I also understand the issue with hunting ingredients. But, if all it takes is the design notes, then your just giving a crappy treasure. Not only is the treasure you just got (the design notes) not an item, you also have to go to town AND pay money for it.

So if you make it too basic, you destroy the point. For some, crafting is about farming the ingredients. But that isn't the only solution. If the smith could personalize the items you have them make for you, then the reward has more value, it's worth going back to town. Another solution is to have different types of design notes, some for the base weapon, and some for enhancements to said weapon. However this solution, if done too well, can take away from the items that drop.

Point being - I like this idea, but it has to be done right.

Sorry but RIGHT is very subjective, and the idea of recipes isn't my invention, it does exist that way in many games and it practically works, it could use little tweaks here and there for fitting with Diablo's nature .. but it can be done and will certainly work.

On a side note ... i probably didn't mention it here but i suggested we can use runes for weapon crafting (i.e adding permanent slightly randomized upgrades to weapons .. you can read it in the link in my OP post leading to the crafting topic).

And yes it has been done like that before like i said requiring both ingredients and recipes ... in this case you need recipes, ingredients (both the weapon and the runes in this case) and a little bit of money to make highly customizable items ... now when the results are expected to be substantial it will be more than worth it to go to town and visit the smithy shop.

 

[stillman]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I only read the OP at this point; I'll come back later and read the rest after work. But here are a couple of thoughts I had on this issue, sorry if they've been brought up already:

1. Give each area in the game a slightly better chance to drop certain item types. For example, in Act 2 sewers (using d2 example) where we see lots of archers, we have a greater chance of long bows droping. Thus, if you want koku unique bow or a 4os long bow or w/e, then this is the palce to farm. If you want a certain axe, you go to the area where the bad guys have axes. Some item types may be a mystery for players to figgure out. For example, some places may be good for farming both skull caps AND light gauntlets, but it is up to the players to discover these slightly biased drop rates for those item combos. The cow level in d2 should drop more pole arms if you ask me! Thus, each area in the game is valuable and has potential to be explored and farmed.

2. In each area, there is a unique item planted on a random enemy. But you have to clean out the area to find it. Now, you might get lucky and the first mob of foes you kill ends up dropping the 'area unique'. BUT, how does the player know that was the area unique?? He doesn't. It could have been a unique generated based on mf. He simply has to kill every last monster to ensure he got it. Of course, no one is forcing you to kill every last monster...you can use mf gear if you want more uniques to drop. But if you want to garauntee a unique drop for the time you spend playing, then you clean out a whole area.

Now, you know all those gem types you need for crafting? Hhat if there was a garaunteed specific gem drop in each area? So Cold Plains has a planted chipped emerald on a random monster every time you make a new game, and River of Flame has a flawless emerald in there somewhere.

3. The Den of Evil based idea: Using the above idea, this one kind of forces you to clean out whole areas. You get a significant exp bonus for killing almost every monster in the area, and an even greater exp bonus for cleaning out an entire act. Now, you don't have to kill every last annoying guy who runs away by checking every corner. You only need to clean out 90% of the monsters. A tone will go off indicating that you've gotten the bonus for wiping out mostly everything. The exp gain is comparable to what you'd get for killing end game bosses. Thus, if you find killing Diablo 1000 times over boring, there is this alternative way to rack up end game experience. Obviously, the exp bonus for cleaning out act 1 is not going to be as much as cleaning out act 4. It's up to Blizzard to balance it out so killing end game bosses and cleaning out areas are about equal in time consumption and exp gain.

Edit: I particularly like 7 and 8 from the OP. For the crafting recipe, one problem is that once the player learns them all or looks them up on websites, he no longer needs to explore areas. What if the recipes were random and different for each character? So for player A uping a unique weapon requires fal and a chipped emerald (and he must learn this by exploring an area), wheras for player B the same recipe is 2 ko and a flawed ruby.

 

[General Anubis]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I have to say I like the ideas presented by the OP here, but I agree with Krugar in some ways, as I don't want the game to become unnecessarily frustrating when trying to find something half decent, since I tend to have some of the worst luck when it comes to finding good stuff :|.

stillman: I really like your modifications to the ideas, all 3 of them actually, but I think in this bit:

I particularly like 7 and 8 from the OP. For the crafting recipe, one problem is that once the player learns them all or looks them up on websites, he no longer needs to explore areas. What if the recipes were random and different for each character? So for player A uping a unique weapon requires fal and a chipped emerald (and he must learn this by exploring an area), wheras for player B the same recipe is 2 ko and a flawed ruby.

you may have missed the original meaning of the OP, as I don't think he meant you would go find pages that taught you the recipe, but rather that you would find some mock-up blue prints that show how to create something, that you would then bring to the blacksmith in town so he would be able to create it for you. This way you wouldn't really have a recipe to learn, but would have to go out and find the recipe you wanted to create each time (however, as I mentioned before, this may introduce unnecessary frustration to the crafting system).
Besides, the method you suggested would be a little bit unbalanced amongst the players I believe .

 

[stillman]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Yeah, that's true. I read too quickly. I was trying to fix a trend in the OP's solutions. With his blueprint crafting idea, the problem is once people get it done for their character, they have no reason to go back to those areas. They got the blueprints they need, now they can go do Baal runs and never go back to those areas again. The solutions, some of them, are only temporary.

For instance, with 1-Random Adventures, as already mentioned, randomness can only go so far and then everything becomes stuff we've seen before. We have to consider 5 years after the game is out when we've learned all the random things that can spawn. I guess the random adventures would have to really give your character some little bits of extra killing power to match the killing power you get from farming bosses. Otherwise, people will go right to the bosses and ignore the areas.

Overall, this thread is what Blizzard needs though because of the problems already mentioned in d2. And d2 just doesn't seem fair to those of us who prefer playing the game naturally, exploring areas, and what about those of us who DON'T like farming bosses? There should be stuff in the areas for those players. Of course, in d2 you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot by choosing area exploration over bosses and that doesn't seem right to me.

And, it looks unprofessional for Blizzard to make these massive areas which much of the player base skips and ignores.

With this one, 2-Random majestic treasure boxes, farming areas would be worthwhile. Remember in the gameplay video when the barb opened the chest and how they said "Now, treasure chests in d3 won't drop full sets of armor..." Umm...why not? If they did, people would clean out areas looking for those chests. In d1 we had the Armories of Hell which had multiple plate armors, all magical, and it was a real blast going in there.

 

[Valmy]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Another nice topic.

I agree with both sides, there are good and bad ideas here, too IMO.

I like playing slowly, killing every monster, and untwinked too. Then I agree in some ideas. I can't agree entirely, because I also like the fun part of runs, it's like being a compulsive gambler and it's very fun too for many people.

I like both: mf runes and killing same bosses for items, and playing a new character killing every monster and exploring and cleaning big areas. Both situations are fun enough for me to make me play Diablo2 in hardcore mode for many years.

The only thing I do here is drop the exp gave by some bosses or monsters, or runs. I don't like exp-runs or rushes. Mi idea for a better game is: you can kill the same monster 99 thousand times if you wish for drop and improve your equip and economy, but not for exp exploits. Also, I prefer cleaning areas for exp, and no more baalruns or cows please. This is no good for the game in the long way, IMO. I think Blizzard must balance the exp rates of every monster, and give extras for completing quests to drive us to explore the entire world forever and forevermore.




Now, my opinions in your post:

1-Random Adventures

I like the idea, but I need to wait more time to see how it works exactly in D3.
My bet here is a changing world, adding mini-events or adventures periodically, or at least modifying with patches the old adventures to maintain the intrigue over years.

Cursed items

Interesting, but sorry very much, I don't like this idea in Diablo3. It's just a personal point of view.

2-Random majestic treasure boxes

I don't see how this could prevent from exprun-exploits. For example, in D2 if they are random, people could do baalruns and get treasures too. Do you see my point? I can't explain it better, I hope it is clear enough.

3-Random Spawn portals/gates[/B]

Cool, but same as #2

4-Balanced Drop rates

As I said in my intro, I prefer balanced EXP rates. The powerful drops for some monsters I think they are a good thing and the core of the gambling in Diablo3. I love it.

Perhaps the solution here is making difficult to reach these monsters, without teleporting-exploit or something like that.

Also "85-areas" were a good thing in D2. I hope they come in D3 but with a better design (exp or drop quests).

5-Elaborate Main Quests with various set pieces and good rewards

An awesome idea, IMO. Also, preventing exploits and making the rewards not too overpowered is a must.

6-Random unique mobs and mini-bosses

I also hope an improve in the random type monsters in some areas. I hope there will be fixed monsters in some places, but more variety of random monsters in each zone.

7-Random Dungeon Challenge

I dont' like the time counter (just my own reasons, I don't like Diablo being a game with counters). Otherwise I agree with the idea.

8-Crafting notes/Recipes

Interesting, but I need to know how crafting will work in Diablo3, if the system comes back.

9-Encyclopedia/Bestiary and Achievements

I love this idea.

10-Rewarding Long term team play[/B]

I prefer playing alone at times, but not a bad idea. They must prevent this from exploits too, like rushes in D2.
Your idea could work, but it needs some mature.







And it's all, nice topic for every explorer :mrgreen:
But please don't forget there were many many gamblers in Diablo2, and killing the same monster repeatedly for nice items is also a fun part for them. I think the only problems here are bots and hacks.

 

[GuardianHadriel]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I´m not the type of d2 player that goes baalrun bananas on each logon, i jsut pick a place to venture and i kill the creeps hangin around, if i feel like re-experiencing mount arreat i´ll run all the way from shenk to The ancients.
Diablo is a world meant to really be explored and not a world of experience pots that needs to be slain...you slay to have fun, not necessarily to level up.
But then agian, i´ve done a lot of runs in my days too. Because as most ppl know it can be fun.

 

[Nextt]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

As your thing you say about wanting them to elaborate quests, are you saying essentially you want to be able to go lvl 1-90(90 being max level) with quests? and if so, are you ****ing stupid? I mean it's ok to maybe have random repeatable quests that always have you kill a "boss type mob" that way your chances for maybe a nice drop is there and it is a break from constant baal run type thing.
But in the end you should NOT be able to go 1-90 from quests, the focus should not be about hitting the max level instantly and thats what was nice about d2, You pretty much wanted to level 1-85 hardcore maybe even 90, but after that you could take it easy, go MF, go pvp, go join random games and hostile them and kill them(yes this is fun to do IF they ARNT like a bunch of lvl 40-60 or w/e when ur 85, not talking about tppk tho thats dumb)

You knew at lvl **(or 90) that was where there was 1 item that was the highest level req and it was the valor(i believe its been a while). So you could go PvP at lvl ** agasint lvl 99's knowing that they can't have some godly items that you can't get until lvl 98. HOWEVER they had more stats / skill point usage than you. so they still had a advantage no matter how its looked at. But the more skillful player will win in this situation, not the lvl 98 just because he is 10 levels higher.(now of course this is amusing you can either A. Teleport, or B. your a necro / bowzon who can try to hide behind **** and shoot from afar. Because obviously javazon's the lvl 98 will win in a battle of the hoes, and same for any class who simply is a sit there and attack class. So enigma definitely added in a more skill factor. but CTA is *** :0

Please read the forum rules regarding conduct. If you wish to remain posting on this board, you will need to be more polite. ~Thyiad

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

As your thing you say about wanting them to elaborate quests, are you saying essentially you want to be able to go lvl 1-90(90 being max level) with quests? and if so, are you ****ing stupid?

So much for reading comprehension ... you start assuming things i didn't say and then go on with stupid childish insults ... reported.

But in the end you should NOT be able to go 1-90 from quests, the focus should not be about hitting the max level instantly.

GAHHHHH ... when did i ever mention something about hitting from 1 to 90 by using quests only or INSTANTLY ... where the heck did you get that idea from !!!!?

Besides .. who the heck said that Baal runs are any better than quests .. if anything .. boss runs in D2 are the some of the most stupid and exploitable parts of the game design and they fail on so many levels ... it's ok to be able to farm at some point .. but making it that exploitable and easy is plain awful design.

So enigma definitely added in a more skill factor. but CTA is *** :0

Enigma is a blight regardless of it's rarity or whatever .. that's all there is to it.