Exploration ... the new experiance

[Knight_Wolf]

Exploration ... the new experiance

Probably fans of Baal runs won't like most of the suggestions here, so if you are one and want to bring in Baal runs into the discussion i suggest you go here http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727187&page=9

This topic will be mostly for those who love to see Diablo 3 catering for explorers and rewarding adventuring around the world of Diablo 3 rather than spamming certain areas.

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First .. it is a fact D2 Dev team never cared about making exploring in D2 rewarding or interesting .. that's why people in D2 end game ended up either quitting or doing the infamous Baal runs endlessly (along side other famous runs) ... basically the game degenerated ... the design encouraged grinding since there was nothing else to be done around the world of Diablo once you explored it few times .. ans that was the biggest disappointment to any one who liked adventuring and exploration ... the question is .. how to avoid that in D3 and is it even possible without making D3 an MMO ... yes it .. let's see how.

Like JonoLith once said

Essentially, if players simply want to rush to the very last boss to farm him, then why even bother making the game leading up to it? Why not just create a single room with that boss in it for players to farm all day?

If the game becomes so worthless after few playthroughs .. why bother making it .. there is no point to that .. unless it is made worth playing over and over.

Exploration ... the new experience in D3 .. how to make Dynamic events in a static world:


1-Random Adventures
(Blizz already promised to take optional quests to a whole new level in D3, with quests/events being drawn from a large pool of quests/events that spawns them randomly outdoors or indoors it is a clear move to encourage players to explore the world of D3 and is indeed a very good idea)
Possible types of Adventures and their variations

1. Escort (Non-combatant NPC/Combatant NPC/Both/Caravan)
2. Search and Fetch (Singe Items/Specified location/non-specified location/Multiple Items/Cursed Items)
3. Kill or Destroy (Mini-boss/Object/Number of Monsters)
4. Protect (A place or an object/A group of people)
5. A combination of two or more of the above in one random adventure with a coherent theme.

Cursed items are items that mess up the player character in various ways (makes stats fluctuate randomly / Drains HP from player unless he kills monsters / Switches Skills around / Reduces Base HP and MP/ Slightly Slow Player / ... etc etc) ... all cursed weapon prevent use of Town Portals and are can only be removed from the player's inventory by the quest giver, usually turning into useful and good copies of their previously cursed incarnations and given to the player as a reward .. so the better the item the bigger the curse you will have to deal with first.


2-Random majestic treasure boxes
(Blizz already hinted at the possibility of rare treasure boxes spawning randomly around the game, it is a good idea to encourage exploration and searching, specially when you know that out of those rare treasure boxes one or two will be majestic treasure boxes with nice loot)


3-Random Spawn portals/gates
(They were already in D2, but were never used effectively and never spawned dangerous monsters, if spawning portals and gates were scattered randomly around the world or even pop up during random times near the player it will take the feeling of fighting hell minions to a whole new level .. fit with the lore that Sanctuary is no longer hidden from hell and will be all around impressive since they will heighten the feeling of danger and hopelessness .. specially if they spawn dangerous and numerous monsters before being destroyed by the player)


4-Balanced Drop rates
(If Baal had lower rates while other bosses or even hi level monsters in hell and nightmare had better drop rates we wouldn't have had the problem of Baal runs ... not to mention that static drop tables are very bad for the end game .. if an item should be rare it should be made vague to encourage exploration not tied to a specific boss with a ridiculous astronomical drop rate ... anyone should be able to get it from anywhere just with differernt chance of getting it from different monsters -good chance from bosses and low from normal monsters- still it doesn't mean that bosses won't be more prone to dropping hi quality items .. just more random non specific hi quality items .. and no quivers XD)


5-Elaborate Main Quests with various set pieces and good rewards
(Looking back at D2 we can see many of the quests were pretty simple and straightforward .. most of them are better suited as being side quests not main quests ... in D3 however thing seem to going in the right direction ... main quests need to be long, epic and multilayered .. the Leoric quest in Blizzcon demo - if i remember correctly - required the player to search dungeon floors for Leoric's chamber key and crown .. then head to his room to open it (quests of this quality we only faced at ACT2,3 in D2 and only once or twice) ... if all quests in D3 are this interesting then hopefully things will change every time we reattempt them .. specially if they reward good EXP and loot)


6-Random unique mobs and mini-bosses
(They could come in two varieties, static ones who spawn in dungeons once a new game is generated .. usually related to guarding majestic treasure boxes or linked to optional quests ... others could be dynamic mini-bosses that roam around certain areas in the open world ... once you go to the nearest town in an area with a dynamic mini-boss the towns folk will ask for your help .. you need to search for the boss, intercept it and kill it .. towns folk could refuse to sell you items until you get rid of it ... since it cuts the trade routes or something like that)


7-Random Dungeon Challenge
(25% of the random dungeons generated in a new game will have the Dungeon challenge tag ... a dungeon with this tag will activate an optional quest once a player enters it .. a mysterious voice will speak to the player telling him that if he completes a certain goal he/she will be rewarded generously .... the challenges are usually time limited but not all are ... and failing them simply denies the player the reward there is no penalty of any sort ... and they can't be restarted)
Some Dungeon challenge types

1. Kill (X) monsters in (X) time
2. Kill (X) of monster type (X) only
3. Destroy mini-boss (X) at the bottom of the dungeon in (X) time
4. Rescue (X) number of lost soldiers in (X) time

8-Crafting notes/Recipes
(just the notion that you had to experiment endlessly in D2 in order to find combination or had to fire up your browser and open a web site with the recipes detracted greatly from the experience ... funny thing is D2 already planned recipes to be in-game items .. good idea .. but was never implemented ... maybe that's why it felt awkward .. but in D3 it could be made valuable again ... Crafting blueprints or notes could be an in-game item you need to collect and give to blacksmiths in order to craft certain items -no there are no rare ingredients collection or anything, that's the blacksmith job- so that you can't craft the best items even if there were tons of internet sites with crafting guides .. you need to adventure to earn the notes and craft the best items) .. for more about crafting see my topic here http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727334



9-Encyclopedia/Bestiary and Achievements
(Many modern RPGs has bestiaries if not full encyclopedias encompassing the game world built within the game to increase and deepen the feeling of immersion and depth .... some are simple and some are complex with detailed info, tons of text, 3D showcase models .. etc etc ... D3 could use a detailed an integrated lore encyclopaedia specially for new comers who don't know much about the world .. those who want to can spend from minutes to hours reading through the lore and info on Diablo world, events and creatures .. but first they have to unlock the entries for each one .. some by collecting them off fallen monsters .. some by killing a certain monster a number of times or killing a certain boss .. or upon completing certain quests or entering certain places ... not only that .. but the bestiary section cloud have useful info about monsters and such .. and the more you kill a monster type the more info becomes available about it .. and so on)


10-Rewarding Long term team play
(If a group of friends make a team and schedule long sessions of exploration and adventuring there should be great benefits from it .. up to this point there is the fact that they get perosnal drops .. so the total summation of their items gain is 4 times more than usual ... and also there is the Combo Kill system the gives Bonus EXP ... it will work even better if the Combo can be kept by anyone in the party .. not each player having a combo meter of his/her own .. so as long as the Party is on a killing streak they all gain extra EXP ... same with a single healing globe healing the whole party)

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All these things if implemented tweaked and balanced will make playing D3 a whole different experience .. and encourage people to replay the game many times and actually never get enough of it since every time the combination of many random elements will make it a new, fresh, and rewarding experience each and every time.


Ideas and thoughts ... why do you like Exploration, and how do you want to see it in D3 !!?

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

This topic will be mostly for those who love to see Diablo 3 catering for explorers and rewarding adventuring around the world of Diablo 3 rather than spamming certain areas.

They aren't mutually exclusive. I hope you understand this. My presence here I believe proves that, since I like to spam certain areas for item finding. But I also like exploring. In fact I can't conceive myself other way, since every RPG, FTS, ARPG and Adventure game I ever played, I go every single place in the game and can't play otherwise. I love the feeling of exploration.

Like JonoLith once said

If the game becomes so worthless after few playthroughs .. why bother making it .. there is no point to that .. unless it is made worth playing over and over.

I believe it's the second time I see you quoting this. I'm sorry, but worthless is not in D2 vocabulary. Not for a mainstream title game that 8 years after release is still strong and gathers such a crowd of fans.

They bothered making D2, and they succeeded. They succeeded in a big way and they made one of the most popular and longterm titles in computer gaming history, even worthed of a patch 8 years later, in what constitutes the first title ever to deserve such an honor.

The logic of that quote is flawed to the bone. Yet, I do agree that the game can be made better. So let's move on...

1-Random Adventures

I am absolutely enthralled with this announcement. I loved it since day one.
My only request is that the base quests (the scripted quests that serve as the basis for the random generator) are many and varied.

I'm concerned that randomness on this case may lead to a false sense of diversity and that we find after a few months playing through these quests end up having the some level of "diversity" as unique monster spawning or random map generation on D2. That is, at first we feel it's very cool, but soon we realize everything eventualy just ens up being the same.

So, it would be important that the number of quest events would be considerable an I'm hoping for some of these quests to force the player to visit random locations during its course in a paper chase type of situation.

Cursed items

I confess I never liked this concept. They are nuisances that will slow down the game and force the player to concentrate first on removing themselves of the object/curse and only then proceed with the game.

In all games I played, cursed items end up being just grievers. Just fun killers and not strategic game plots. They just don't work.

2-Random majestic treasure boxes

Let's hope some of these will indeed be majestic and not a constant source of frustration like sparkling chests or superchests in D2.

3-Random Spawn portals/gates[/B]
(They were already in D2, but were never used effectively and never spawned dangerous monsters,

They were in fact weird. The spawn monster shrine was very rare and only spawned an unique or champion (the urns in act V were much more interesting). The Portal shrine on the other hand was just weird. Too random to be useful.

We know shrines aren't coming back. But the notion of random portals to areas a player can't access in any other way is very appealing to me. I'm imagining a series of special areas hidden from the players and that will never be a part of the normal game. These would be very rare areas, full of exploration potential and with good rewards at the end.

As for monster spawning "shrines". I too would like a revised approach; A much bigger challenge at the very least.

4-Balanced Drop rates

We don't agree here. And I'd prefer to discuss this on its own thread that is already in place.

5-Elaborate Main Quests with various set pieces and good rewards

Absolutely!
The Leoric quest is a good example. But I would love even more. I'd love true grand scale quests more to the end of the game that would force the player to revisit previous acts.

6-Random unique mobs and mini-bosses

Ermm... but this already exists in D2. I think they will have the exact same thing for D3. Maybe with more variety. Am I reading you wrong on this one?

7-Random Dungeon Challenge
(25% of the random dungeons generated in a new game will have the Dungeon challenge tag ... a dungeon with this tag will activate an optional quest once a player enters it .. a mysterious voice will speak to the player telling him that if he completes a certain goal he/she will be rewarded generously .... the challenges are usually time limited but not all are ... and failing them simply denies the player the reward there is no penalty of any sort ... and they can't be restarted)

I like this idea so much I wet my pants. It's very similar to something that was in place on one of my favorite MUDs of all times and that worked extremely well in that every player agreed it wa one of the most fun and interesting game aspects.

Just one disagreement. No timed quests. Nope.
Let players handle the game at their pace. Challenge them on their skill. Not their free time.

8-Crafting notes/Recipes[/B]

There will be huge changes to the game on this regard. I don't think its wise to consider this as a wish... since it's already come true. We just don't know yet is how exactly.

9-Encyclopedia/Bestiary and Achievements[/B]

Only if it's not integrated in the game, but presented as a separate application on the CD. I don't want the game to be crowded with non essential features. Diablo is not an hard game by any standards. A game encyclopedia will not be needed in order to understand the game, as you realized. So this feature can perfectly well exist outside of the game, either as "Arreat Summit" II website or a bonus application.

10-Rewarding Long term team play[/B]

No!!

Sorry, but no! Lets once and for all end with D3 the shameful attitude towards single players that was the hallmark of D2 support team. Those days have to go away. I payed the same price as any other online gamer for the game. I demand the exact same game. No less. End of Discussion!


But more... while well intentioned, this will benefit the small fringe of the online community responsible for such abhorrent things as item selling websites. Because that's exactly how they operate. They work as a team and farm the game to levels that are completely out of this world.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I'd just like to add in one thing that's of worth to say again and again. If they implement all of this to encourage exploration, and yet put in, at the end, a static boss encounter that's guarenteed the best loot and XP, all of this is destroyed instantly.

I know this isn't the thread for Boss Encounters, but it is worth repeating. You can have the most brilliant ideas in the universe, but a static boss with the best loot and xp will outright destroy them.

Trolls think otherwise it seems.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Why will it destroy?

Will you choose do the boss run instead of exploring the game? Is that it? Because if that's it then you don't like exploring much, do you?

Or is that you wish to enforce exploration on everyone?

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Trolls think otherwise it seems.

How dare you?
Because I don't share your opinion, I'm now a troll?

Sheesh! I'm out.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

They bothered making D2, and they succeeded. They succeeded in a big way and they made one of the most popular and longterm titles in computer gaming history, even worthed of a patch 8 years later, in what constitutes the first title ever to deserve such an honor.

The logic of that quote is flawed to the bone. Yet, I do agree that the game can be made better. So let's move on...

Not really ... when the end game of Diablo 2 degenerates into a straight line from the beginning of the game to a room at the end of it it is degeneration and has no other meaning.

And D2 was bought by 8 million people (add or remove a million) that's a lot of people .. and sure not all of them played the same way and will indeed make the game active for years .. and admitting it has its charm that doesn't mean it didn't have severe balance issues and many exploits (duping, hacks, ... etc etc) and problems.

Personally i consider it the least polished Blizz game (fact since many features promised by the devs over and over were all thrown away before the release of the game .. kinda gives a feeling they rushed things in the end).

All that aside .. there is no denying the fact Baal runs (or boss runs) severely degenerate the game worth and value in the end game stage to very tight specific spammable spots or even a single room ... that's too simple and too exploitable.

Why do you want item hunting to be extremely related to spam and very easy .. it shouldn't be .. it's called hunting for a reason ... i personally wouldn't do Boss runs not because they are hard or challenging but because they are freaking boring and mind numbing and that's not what i play games for .. i play them to ENJOY a challenge .. and certainly not to do something extremely repetitive or to numb my mind.

Sigh .. enough side-tracking by me .. back to topic

I'm concerned that randomness on this case may lead to a false sense of diversity and that we find after a few months playing through these quests end up having the some level of "diversity" as unique monster spawning or random map generation on D2. That is, at first we feel it's very cool, but soon we realize everything eventually just ens up being the same.

The false diversity problem you are pointing at is really weird ... so what do you suggest .. removing the random adventures that we don't have any of them and thus no false diversity problem !!! .. i don't get your point ... Blizz will certainly make as many random adventures as they can and add more in expansions .. but it isn't just the quantity that matters .. it's the surprise of getting a certain adventure or event when you least expect it .. and also the fact that every new game they will be placed in different order and in different locations .. there will be almost endless combinations of them .. that's diverse if you look at the bigger picture.

I confess I never liked this concept. They are nuisances that will slow down the game and force the player to concentrate first on removing themselves of the object/curse and only then proceed with the game.

In all games I played, cursed items end up being just grievers. Just fun killers and not strategic game plots. They just don't work.

Not if done right .. they just need to be tested ... a curse forces you to kill monsters to stay alive, another reduces your base MP and HP temporarily .. these are challenges that offer you a very good reward in the end .. if you don't want a certain challenge you are free not to pick up that cursed item .. just walk by it (you get to know they are cursed form the quest giver .. but you never know the type of curse until you pick it up).

They were in fact weird. The spawn monster shrine was very rare and only spawned an unique or champion (the urns in act V were much more interesting). The Portal shrine on the other hand was just weird. Too random to be useful.

Not the shrines .. i meant thing that constantly spawned enemies like the stone coffins in ACT2 dungeons ... that's what i was talking about .. they need to expand that concept cause it fits very well with the tactical gameplay approach they want in D3 combat.

We know shrines aren't coming back. But the notion of random portals to areas a player can't access in any other way is very appealing to me. I'm imagining a series of special areas hidden from the players and that will never be a part of the normal game. These would be very rare areas, full of exploration potential and with good rewards at the end.

Actually that's not what i meant by portals .. but since you brought it up .. i guess "Chaos Tristram" tried to be like that ... it wasn't a bad idea for an end game level but few ever knew about its existence ... they should provide more content like that but make it more accessible.

As for Monster Portals .. i meant actually portals that send monsters to your location regardless of where you are .. they pop up near you and spawn a couple of monsters and disappear
As for monster spawning "shrines". I too would like a revised approach; A much bigger challenge at the very least.

Ermm... but this already exists in D2. I think they will have the exact same thing for D3. Maybe with more variety. Am I reading you wrong on this one?

Yeah .. you got it right .. i mean they should add more variety and make it more often and more random.

I like this idea so much I wet my pants. It's very similar to something that was in place on one of my favorite MUDs of all times and that worked extremely well in that every player agreed it wa one of the most fun and interesting game aspects.

Just one disagreement. No timed quests. Nope.
Let players handle the game at their pace. Challenge them on their skill. Not their free time.

It has nothing to do with free time .. the time limits given should never exceed 15 minutes .. it is made to be a very quick and rapid challenge.

Time trials are one of the best measures of player skills .... how else will you know which player is really worthy of the reward if one takes 3 hours to kill the monsters (like any other monsters) and another who is truly skilled took 14 mins to do it .. putting the time limit will encourage fast play and quick thinking and will really give the rewards to those who really deserve it ... fail and there is no penalty at all .. you still get EXP and normal items from the monsters as usual .. but now you know you aren't really as good as you thought you are.

There will be huge changes to the game on this regard. I don't think its wise to consider this as a wish... since it's already come true. We just don't know yet is how exactly.

Hope they inform us about how they intend to do crafting in Blizzcon-09

Only if it's not integrated in the game, but presented as a separate application on the CD. I don't want the game to be crowded with non essential features. Diablo is not an hard game by any standards. A game encyclopedia will not be needed in order to understand the game, as you realized. So this feature can perfectly well exist outside of the game, either as "Arreat Summit" II website or a bonus application.

Still i didn't see a good reason why not fully integrate it into the game .... many RPGs did it successfully and it does make the game world more immersive and interesting if viewed from inside the game itself (like in RPG/TPS Mass Effect or in JRPG Vagrant Story) ... not to mention collecting the entries will be lots of fun .. specially for new comers who will uncover bits and pieces about the Diablo world lore, major events, its cities and inhabitants of all kinds piece by piece (not info on how to understand the game) .. collecting the lore info like that will make viewing the encyclopedia enjoyable because your are viewing your handy work ... it will feel 180 degrees different than if you shoved all the info down people throats' all at once via an outside site or separate application .. many will just ignore it because it's too much of hassle to check tons of suddenly available info.

Besides .. Blizz already said the plan on adding achievements to all their future games including SC2 and Diablo3 .. what better source for collectible achievements other than an encyclopedia collection that you need to fetch piece by piece.

No!!

Sorry, but no! Lets once and for all end with D3 the shameful attitude towards single players that was the hallmark of D2 support team. Those days have to go away. I payed the same price as any other online gamer for the game. I demand the exact same game. No less. End of Discussion!

Actually you response here made me lol ... why are you saying this to me .. all the features i mentioned are already in D3 as we talk now .. and the devs stated they wanted to end the anti-team behavior that infested D2 servers and realms and make D3 a team-friendly game .. so they are perfectly on the right road.

Besides .. how is it not the exact game .. just cause there are features that encourage team play it doesn't mean it is a differernt game ... MANY if not ALL games have differing features between their single and multiplayer versions .. rarely does it ever happen that both modes are identical in any game ... somethings work in SP only .. somethings work in MP only .. that basic game design.

But more... while well intentioned, this will benefit the small fringe of the online community responsible for such abhorrent things as item selling websites. Because that's exactly how they operate. They work as a team and farm the game to levels that are completely out of this world.

Now that you mention it ... if exploration is the main way to get good items those guys will go bankrupt in few weeks .... they probably programmed their minds on spam and exploitable boss runs that repeat over and over so simple and profitable for them to do .... but suddenly having to explore the whole game to get good gear will shock them and their BOT mentality to the core. *evil laugh*

Trolls think otherwise it seems.

How dare you?
Because I don't share your opinion, I'm now a troll?

Sheesh! I'm out.

Guys take it easy .. no need to fight .. Krugar ... Jono seems to be upset about you replying in his topic constantly and disagreeing with him .. i don't know what should be done to convince him you really aren't a toll -and you aren't one indeed- so just calm down first *looks around* .. i don't see any tolls around here .. let's go back to topic.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

The false diversity problem you are pointing at is really weird ... so what do you suggest .. removing the random adventures that we don't have any of them and thus no false diversity problem !!! .. i don't get your point ...

No. I'm not criticizing the feature. I'm raising a concern and making a suggestion. Please read it again.

Nowhere I said random adventures should be removed. I just said the base quests that will serve as source for these random adventures should be many an varied, so that we don't end up with a false sense of diversity.

Time trials are one of the best measures of player skills ....

I don't agree with that. On some instances, maybe. But on most cases, and in games the likes of Diablo, it's down to a matter of equipment and not skill. D3 will be no different, and in fact even more so. From runes, to the much wider array of available items, a player killing speed will be determined mostly by what they find in the game, and less by how good they are with the mouse or how they build their character skill trees. Players won't even be able to put point in attributes anymore.

Actually you response here made me lol ... why are you saying this to me ..

I misread the whole thing. My apologies.
Such a long post and by the end I was already tired. Somehow I was reading about an increase in odds for rare/unique. And not an increase in loot, which is what you meant.

Now that you mention it ... if exploration is the main way to get good items those guys will go bankrupt in few weeks .... they probably programmed their minds on spam and exploitable boss runs that repeat over and over so simple and profitable for them to do ....

Eh! You are way of the mark. Anything that encourages team work is godsend to them. There's a whole subculture around the concept of making a living from playing games, mostly on Asian countries (the most prominent being South Korea and China). There's an excellent documentary about this world where players eat, sleep and play together games like WoW, Everquest, Diablo, etc to farm for equipment and put them up for sale. These are aptly called "Gold Farms", or simply "Farms".

I can't remember the name of the documentary. But meanwhile here's a taste of what I'm talking about http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1545919/20061115/index.jhtml

There's no stopping this, of course. But do not think these are players who would "close shop" because the game forced them to adventure. They have a mindset alright; for money.

Anyways, I was thinking increased odds for unique/rares... In this context, Diablo 3 would become a paradise for these players.

but suddenly having to explore the whole game to get good gear will shock them and their BOT mentality to the core. *evil laugh*

Do try and investigate a little bit further about Gold Farms. You won't laugh.

 

[windforce]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I disagree with the balanced drop rates idea. I like that certain items can only be found on hard bosses.

If the other ideas you have there were implemented, it would provide incentive for people people to spend less time doing a single boss run, but for those who want to there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

I disagree with the balanced drop rates idea. I like that certain items can only be found on hard bosses.

Those bosses aren't hard anymore after being beaten on few times .. they become cash cows/pinatas that people smack and milk for those specific items .. that system simply encourages farming, spam and bots.

It is way better if those hard bosses only had a better chance at dropping good random items more than other bosses and monsters .. which items .. nobody should ever be able to tell.

If the other ideas you have there were implemented, it would provide incentive for people people to spend less time doing a single boss run, but for those who want to there's nothing wrong with that.

No matter what we do boss runs will still be possible indeed ... but if we know that boss runs are part of the incentives for framing sites and bots to infest Diablo servers because of their simplicity and exploitable nature their benefits indeed need to be toned down a few notches(as i said there is no way to remove them).

No. I'm not criticizing the feature. I'm raising a concern and making a suggestion. Please read it again.

Nowhere I said random adventures should be removed. I just said the base quests that will serve as source for these random adventures should be many an varied, so that we don't end up with a false sense of diversity.

I do get your point, but you offered no specific solution to that false diversity problem other than the natural solution which is "make them many and varied" .. of course they will try to ... but either way .. i'd rather have a false sense of diversity than no diversity at all XD

I don't agree with that. On some instances, maybe. But on most cases, and in games the likes of Diablo, it's down to a matter of equipment and not skill. D3 will be no different, and in fact even more so. From runes, to the much wider array of available items, a player killing speed will be determined mostly by what they find in the game, and less by how good they are with the mouse or how they build their character skill trees. Players won't even be able to put point in attributes anymore.

That's actually one of the things that annoyed me about Diablo 2 and MMOs in general .. their severe lack of skill based gameplay .. but seeing D3 videos tells me there will be lots of chance for skilled players to shine even if hey have slightly weaker equipment because combat requires some good reflexes and tactics as portrayed by the Devs .. and MMOs thankfully (both Eastern/korean MMOs like Mabinogi Heroes and T.E.R.A and western MMOs like the Agency Sector-8 and Tabula Rasa) have started to make MMOs that encourage and focus on player skills rather than how many items they collected (or rather bought from an online site or whatever) .. items are important and should be a factor ... but it is very wrong to make the the most important aspect for so many general and gameplay specific reasons.

It is a sad sight to see a skilled player being defeated by someone just because that person has no life and keeps playing 24/7 colletcing items or that person's brother collected the best items for him or bought him some from an online farming site .. really sad sight for a gamer to see in a supposedly competitive game environment .. it destroys the whole meaning and purpose of such games.

Eh! You are way of the mark. Anything that encourages team work is godsend to them. There's a whole subculture around the concept of making a living from playing games, mostly on Asian countries (the most prominent being South Korea and China). There's an excellent documentary about this world where players eat, sleep and play together games like WoW, Everquest, Diablo, etc to farm for equipment and put them up for sale. These are aptly called "Gold Farms", or simply "Farms".

Yeah .. and that's why Boss runs are like heaven on earth for them .. they even don't need to do anything themselves .. just unleash a couple of bots and watch them runs Baal over an over to no end while they eat pizza and drink cola ... boss runs and static farming locations are a god send for them.

And the MMO examples are actually the same cause most MMOs do have specific farming locations and static bosses just like D2 ... at least they allow for adventuring for those who want it because there is always something new to see ... but in no way that has anything to do with farmers .. they don't give a damn about adventuring .. they want spammable static farming locations and raid dungeons to gain as much fortune as fast as possible ( which adventuring doesn't provide that fast at all .. it goes for slow and enjoyable)


Adventuring on the other hand (and removing static fixed drop lists) will devastate their plans .. they could spend weeks looking for a specific set of items and never find it .. that's not good for their business .. it is pretty straight forward really and has nothing to do with whether they do it as a team or not.

In short .. Boss runs .. static drop lists and farming locations do encourage:-
-Farmers to spread like an infestation on Dialbo servers because of the easy and very exploitable nature of boss runs.
-Bots.
-Spam ... they are exploitable by nature.

On the other hand ... adventuring will -unlike what it first seems- increase Diablo 3 life span since obtaining items will require more than just spamming a location or a boss 40 times ... and it won't be impossible to find the items you want since they can drop anytime and anywhere .. but you can't farm them .. you rather hunt for them ... and either way someone or some people will eventually find items that are demanded and offer them for those who are out there hunting for them ... and that will encourage trade as well .... so no spam and no exploits ... and good luck for farmers spending weeks to find an item they specifically were requested to find by a client.

There's no stopping this, of course. But do not think these are players who would "close shop" because the game forced them to adventure. They have a mindset alright; for money.

They will .. when they spend hours adventuring and working (i.e it is work for them) and in the end come up with a bunch of normal items or items other than the ones that are demanded from people because there are no monsters with static drop lists to spam mindlessly for specific items that have high demand like they did in D2 ... i want to see their faces then XD

Anyways, I was thinking increased odds for unique/rares... In this context, Diablo 3 would become a paradise for these players.

Lols .. they are increased but spread all over the game ... you can no longer spam a boss to get item (X) .. getting item (X) with adventuring will take much more time ... but during your adventuring you will indeed find other good items (which you can later trade for item X or maybe at some point you might get lucky and find item X yourself on one of your adventures).. take on several challenges and team up with friends if you want .. it is a whole different spam-free experience .. and it will teach players to adapt to the items they find and use them in creative ways .. instead of every one farming the SAME EXACT ITEMS and we end up with tons of people with the same exact gear.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Guys take it easy .. no need to fight .. Krugar ... Jono seems to be upset about you replying in his topic constantly and disagreeing with him

Just to be totally clear, this is inaccurate. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me.

What I DO mind is A) Being mocked when I structure an argument to refute someone's posts. B) Having that person mock me without actually backing up anything they're saying with further argument and instead saying *sigh* or *eye roll* or something along those lines. C) Not engaging in actual debate but simply saying things like "You don't get it" and making no attempt to actually clarify their position.

All of these things make a Troll, and this is my experience with Kruger, who is, most definitely, a Troll.

It is almost worthless to talk about him though as I have already put him on ignore, and I only bring it up to clarify my position on the matter, like a person who is interested in civil discussion does. I don't say things like "pull a Jonolith" in a derogatory manner, I don't sigh at people, and I CERTAINLY don't totally disregard someone if they've taken one of my posts and intelligently deconstructed it in an effort to engage in meaningful debate by simply saying "Oh you've missed the point." In general, I am not an asshole to people just because they aren't standing in front of me.

Kruger is a troll, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the fact that he disagrees, it is that he is a total douche while doing it, and even poorly at that. That is all.

 

[Thyiad]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

It is for the Moderators to decide whose behaviour is unacceptable. And we will deal with them.

If you feel a post is unacceptable you may report it. Nothing more.

 

[Thyiad]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

On a separate non-Moderator note: I play a MMO and I'll say this about 'boss runs' or 'farming' or whatever you want to call it. It will happen.

Got a mission with good drops? Great, don't complete it, reset it then go back and redo it. It's pretty disliked by some parts of the game but it happens. Some people want to do that and that's fine.

The only time it is an issue is when people do that and use is as a way to powerlevel new characters and new people (like Uber Trist runs) and they then have no idea how to play the game.

But no matter what you do, boss runs/farming will be there. Same as real money for game gold spammers. I don't like it but you won't stop it.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Just to be totally clear, this is inaccurate. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me.

What I DO mind is A) Being mocked when I structure an argument to refute someone's posts. B) Having that person mock me without actually backing up anything they're saying with further argument and instead saying *sigh* or *eye roll* or something along those lines. C) Not engaging in actual debate but simply saying things like "You don't get it" and making no attempt to actually clarify their position.

All of these things make a Troll, and this is my experience with Kruger, who is, most definitely, a Troll.

It is almost worthless to talk about him though as I have already put him on ignore, and I only bring it up to clarify my position on the matter, like a person who is interested in civil discussion does. I don't say things like "pull a Jonolith" in a derogatory manner, I don't sigh at people, and I CERTAINLY don't totally disregard someone if they've taken one of my posts and intelligently deconstructed it in an effort to engage in meaningful debate by simply saying "Oh you've missed the point." In general, I am not an asshole to people just because they aren't standing in front of me.

Kruger is a troll, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the fact that he disagrees, it is that he is a total douche while doing it, and even poorly at that. That is all.

Since You decided to publicly offend me and because that seems to be tolerable behavior around these parts, I withdraw my initial instinct that was to simply ignore your post and instead do my public defense.

You have been told by me numerous times what my position is about this issue. For some reason you refused to read my posts properly and constructed in your mind wrong assumptions. Patiently I told you 3 times (3 times!) what my position on this matter was. And yet, you kept (you keep!) insisting I was saying things I never did. You -- and only you! -- that I know off is the only person who doesn't understand my arguments. No one else complained. And everyone else answering my posts was addressing what I was saying.

Now... after three times of this nonsense I lost my patience and decided I wouldn't be arguing with someone who doesn't make an effort to respect other people opinions by at least taking their time properly reading what they have to say before replying.

When addressing another member of this forum he misread one of my arguments, and I jocosely told him to not "pull a jonolith" on me. If this offended you, I apologize. I sincerely do. It was a joke. A meaningless joke that you could just ignore or, rightfully call my attention to. But...

In no way that gives you the right to openly offend me the way you did with the above quote. The moment you do that you lose any right you might have to complain about my manners. In fact, the above quote is unqualified and a sad display of your attitude when things just don't go your way. You handed me the right to be offended.

If you care for civilized speech as you say you do, you don't go around calling people trolls or douches. You concern yourself with the thread topic. Something I always did until just now.

My posts are everywhere for anyone to read. They speak for myself.
And You just spoke for yourself.

 

[Thyiad]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Krugar I will tell you the same as I told JonoLith. If you have a problem with a post then you may report it. Moderators will then decide how to act. And generally they will do privately.

You will not carry on a public argument on these boards. If *either* of you make any further posts in the nature of the your last posts, you will both recieve a three day ban.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

On a separate non-Moderator note: I play a MMO and I'll say this about 'boss runs' or 'farming' or whatever you want to call it. It will happen.

Got a mission with good drops? Great, don't complete it, reset it then go back and redo it. It's pretty disliked by some parts of the game but it happens. Some people want to do that and that's fine.

The only time it is an issue is when people do that and use is as a way to powerlevel new characters and new people (like Uber Trist runs) and they then have no idea how to play the game.

But no matter what you do, boss runs/farming will be there. Same as real money for game gold spammers. I don't like it but you won't stop it.

Nobody argued boss runs/farming can be 100% removed .. it is a fact no matter what's done it will still be in the game ... but since in D2 the core game design choices encouraged farming and boss running it is pretty clear those designs choices need to be revoked for D3 to tone down the farming and boss running and make it have less impact on the end game.

Removing static drop lists and giving bosses only a good chance to drop any good item will greatly diminish boss farming for specific items .. since you never know what the boss will drop and can never even speculate it ... and with normal or hi-level monsters prone to dropping rare items (but with a much less chance than bosses) you can stumple upon a rare item anywhere at anytime ... and that will encourage players to play the actual game since that raises their chances of finding better gear.

But it shouldn't stop at that .. the end game shouldn't only be about good gear .. it should also be about what to do with that gear ... there should be many activities to do one the character hits 70 or 80 .. a survival dungeon .. a PVP arena ... special hidden quests ... random mini-boss hunting .. collectibles ... etc etc etc ... that will make D3 a whole new experience.

Krugar I will tell you the same as I told JonoLith. If you have a problem with a post then you may report it. Moderators will then decide how to act. And generally they will do privately.

You will not carry on a public argument on these boards. If *either* of you make any further posts in the nature of the your last posts, you will both recieve a three day ban.

Fair enough, i'm really sad that it got to this point.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

But it shouldn't stop at that .. the end game shouldn't only be about good gear .. it should also be about what to do with that gear ... there should be many activities to do one the character hits 70 or 80 .. a survival dungeon .. a PVP arena ... special hidden quests ... random mini-boss hunting .. collectibles ... etc etc etc ... that will make D3 a whole new experience.

I fully support this thought. The endgame must be a lot more than MFing. Unfortunately, there's very little being said on this regard despite a good few posts on the official forums requesting a comment on it. There's no clear decision to provide some sort of continuous endgame. A point that would make Diablo 3 a much stronger game.

 

[Thyiad]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Boss running/farming is really a result of the "must have l337 itamz nao". Unfortunately I'm not convinced that will never be properly eliminated, short of eliminating the players. Which would be somewhat counter-productive.

I appreciate what you're saying, Knight_Wolf, regard the certainty of xx mob dropping yy item but I think even greater randomization won't cure the problem. Although perhaps by widening the drop rates it may mitigate it somewhat.

The thing with D2 is the sheer amount of data available about TC levels, ilevels, drop calcs etc etc. That's going to be lacking in D3. Especially if Blizzard don't release the information and it's down to player testing to crunch those numbers.

I would like to see more diversity - it would help solo players acquire items - but I do believe there would be more 'area' running rather than 'boss running'.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out when more details are released.

Fair enough, i'm really sad that it got to this point.

Me too, but when an instruction is given privately I don't expect to have to return to deal with the same issue. Debate is encouraged, personal attacks are not.

 

[GoldenBird]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Even if we have more exploring in the game, people are just going to set up bots to run through the game instead of up to one boss :/

And Jono was right, as long as they have 1 boss with better drops, people are going to run it and farm it. But the thing is, it's hard to just not reward the player once they beat it. I guess it could be fixed by making it a quest and the quest-giver giving you the reward or whatever.

One of my favorite ideas on making the playthrough worth it that someone else suggested was having an all-out extra difficulty mode that is really hard and requires over the top gear and such. The reward doesn't have to be big and overpowering, it can just be title, like beating hell in D2. This way trading for gear and perfecting your build would have more of a point to it. Once you finish D2, there isn't really a point to finishing off your char, atleast imo. You can make them uber all you want, but there won't really be anything to do with them. Even if you use them to build up riches, once you're rich, it's kinda pointless. But if you had an extra mode like that, it could give people more of a reason to go and perfect their characters. I know I'll probably hear heck from the casual gamers, but you can't cater to everyone :/

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

Even if we have more exploring in the game, people are just going to set up bots to run through the game instead of up to one boss :/

But it will be a lot harder to do so ... besides bots can't trade or make meaningful choices if they face a complex quest or any of the choices they have to make during adventuring ... making a bot to run a specific boss is just way more easier and exploitable.

And Jono was right, as long as they have 1 boss with better drops, people are going to run it and farm it. But the thing is, it's hard to just not reward the player once they beat it. I guess it could be fixed by making it a quest and the quest-giver giving you the reward or whatever.

Of course you have to reward the player after beating the boss .. just don't give the boss a static drop list with sepcific items or make it an EXP pinata that players gang on and beat to death easily after playing the game for a while .... the boss quests needs to be much bigger than just beating the crap out of single boss and a couple of monsters .. it needs to be longer .. more epic and complex (look at the Siege weapon battle from the WWI demo .. it single handedly made all D2 boss battles look like crap ... if that was a mini-boss battle in D3 i can't imagine how actual boss battle later in the game will be like XD)

One of my favorite ideas on making the playthrough worth it that someone else suggested was having an all-out extra difficulty mode that is really hard and requires over the top gear and such. The reward doesn't have to be big and overpowering, it can just be title, like beating hell in D2. This way trading for gear and perfecting your build would have more of a point to it.

That's indeed one way to do it.

Once you finish D2, there isn't really a point to finishing off your char, atleast imo. You can make them uber all you want, but there won't really be anything to do with them. Even if you use them to build up riches, once you're rich, it's kinda pointless. But if you had an extra mode like that, it could give people more of a reason to go and perfect their characters. I know I'll probably hear heck from the casual gamers, but you can't cater to everyone :/

True ... D3 needs to give people something to do with their powered up characters .. which is something D2 greatly ignored.

 

[Smash]

Re: Exploration ... the new experiance

...

Overall i agree with you and i think Blizzard too asthere will be random quest and others things.

Memory bring me Fallout 2 and how fantastic was to travel through world because you could encounter different random generate scenarios.