ES and Max Block

[Ironwill]

ES and Max Block

Hmm I keep hearing that ES and a shield don't work well together.. how is that? Does it has to do with stats points or something? I just don't get it why these two safety feauture won't work together.

I play HC so i'm trying to build the safest sorcy possible yet enjoying my style of gameplay = ES/FO

Since I'm here I just can't find any guide that adress the kind of build I want to do, maybe someone can point me to the right direction.

My planed build was:

Cold Tree:
20- FO
1- CM
(5 pre-req)

Fire Tree
20- Fireball
20- Firebolt
1- Warmth

Light Tree:
1- Static Field
10- Teleknesis (will pump this later after build is finished)
10- ES
(5 pre-req)

Total of 93 skils points. Core build finished at lvl 81

After that either pump TK (original plan) or pump Cold Mastery.

This is for HC play mostly soloing or with no more than 2-3 players.

You guys think this build is viable?

Now to get back to my initial question. I was planing on distributing my stats the following:

STR- 88ish
DEX- whatever it takes to get max block
VIT- 0
NRG- left overs

again is this viable?

 

[FrostBurn]

Having recently built a low str, zero dex, zero vit, all energy ES/Nova/FO sorc, I found that my mana bulb still could not keep up, even with 20 hard points in TK. I had mana of about 2800, life 400-ish, and resists all in the -80 range. The idea was to have ES absorb so much, that little damage was taken to life. And with DRx and MDRx, hopefully negate all damage. I discovered that you need a lot more DRx and MDRx to completely negate whatever damage that isn't redirected to ES (and my ES was taking over 90% of damage received).

So maxing block could be the problem, in that you have fewer points to go into vit/erg.

Receiving normal physical damage is not a problem. Receiving physical damage when you are cursed and being attacked by extra strong monsters (even if they are flayers), can easily reduce the life of a 0 vit ES sorc. And if they mana burn as well = deeds.

Resistances need to be at least positive, I think, in order to not lose a lot of life from elemental attacks.

So it's either going to be lots, lots more PDRx and MDRx, or some points in vitality and much more resists.

 

[Nilaripper]

Cold Tree:
20- FO
1- CM
(5 pre-req)

Fire Tree
20- Fireball
20- Firebolt
1- Warmth

Light Tree:
1- Static Field
10- Teleknesis (will pump this later after build is finished)
10- ES
(5 pre-req)

Total of 93 skils points. Core build finished at lvl 81

After that either pump TK (original plan) or pump Cold Mastery.

This is for HC play mostly soloing or with no more than 2-3 players.

You guys think this build is viable?

Now to get back to my initial question. I was planing on distributing my stats the following:

STR- 88ish
DEX- whatever it takes to get max block
VIT- 0
NRG- left overs

If you build your sorc safer,you have to sacrifice damage.Fireball without mastery is a problem imho.My advice go for max block,stack your inventory with life/mana gc/lc/sc and having full resis is mandatory in HC, otherwise the first group of mana burners will eat you.
My Hcl ES/nova sorc has 4200mana,1100life(selfbo),resis95-90-90-43(guardian angel),45%dr and max block,20 points in TK,lvl40ES(memory staff).She is unTPPKable, not one hit killable,manaregeneration ~320per second(only 15er insight)
http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/manaregeneration.php

 

[Ironwill]

So you guys saying that ES and Max block DO complement each other nicely, right?

If so then I don't know where is that rumor coming from that having both is not very smart.

@Nila: Yeah you'r right I forgot to toss in there 1 pt in Fire Mastery. Hopefully with +skills my synergized Fireball will do enough damages to CI's

 

[PhatTrumpet]

So you guys saying that ES and Max block DO complement each other nicely, right?

I wouldn't say they complement eachother, but it doesn't really hurt to have both.

Your skill plan is all out of whack IMO. Making an "ES" Sorc without max TK is like ordering a cheeseburger without the cheese. Also, a synergized Fire Ball without a single point in Fire Mastery is like... I don't know, something else that doesn't make any sense. I'd shoot for something more like this:

20 Orb
enough in Cold Mastery to hit slvl 17
1 cold armor of your choosing
20 Fire Ball
1 Fire Mastery
1 Warmth
20 TK
1 EShield
1 Static
remaining points in Fire Bolt

Cold Mastery reaches its maximum efficiency at slvl 17. Going higher is at least debatable; going lower is not (unless you have an 'Infinity' Merc by your side, a Conviction Pally or Lower Resist Necro in your party at all times, or if you're constantly using a Lower Resist wand).

Your Fire Ball damage may be less than impressive, but that's something you just have to deal with on a dual-element ES build. I personally only use ES on single-element sorcs because they can afford to sacrifice points from synergies.

EShield can be prebuffed to a respectable level. Unless you're planning to get it to slvl 40 and try the build Frost Burn described (pure energy build with lots of MDR/PDR), you should really only be investing one point. Use prebuff gear to get it up where you want it.

BTW, the pure energy build is really not something you should try on HC. The build gets owned by poison damage, and if you ever run out of mana (which can happen very easily around mana burn monsters), you are as good as dead.

Stats should look something like:

str for gear
dex for max block
rest vit
no energy

Mana can be boosted by items/charms. If, on the other hand, you pump energy and end up with more mana than life, you become useless due to the Blood Mana curse.

 

[Ironwill]

Your skill plan is all out of whack IMO.

That was a bit harsh
But I apreciate the input.

Following everyone's advice my revised build will be:

Cold Tree: 28 pts
20 FO
1 CM
1 Shiver Armor
6 Pre-reqs

Fire Tree: 42 Pts
20 FireBolt
20 Fireball
1 Warth
1 FM

Lit Tree: 25-30
1 Static Field
10-15 TK (enough to reduce mana cost to 1/1)
10 ES
4 Pre-rqes

Core Build 95 pts finished at level 83.
Form there good candidates to pump wil be either TK or ES depending of my gear.

STATS:

STR: 80

Then after that I'll allocate every level:
DEX: 3 pts
VIT: 1
NRG: 1

I decided to pump NRG to have a big mana pool including charms and gear.
So that compensate for my non-maxed TK and a truelly efficient ES.

As for mana burns bosses well that's where I'll have to be REALLY careful.

Fire & Cold Immune, well hopefully my static and merc will take care of them.

If, on the other hand, you pump energy and end up with more mana than life, you become useless due to the Blood Mana curse.

Useless? Aren't you exagerating a bit here?
Blood Mana is a pain for sure but is not as deadly as IM is for careless Melee classes. The way I see it Blood Mana deal dmg based on the mana cost of each spell. Right? I may be totally wrong here but if it's the way I understand it then it's not that bad as long as I pay attention not to spam spells like crazy.

 

[FrostBurn]

I decided to pump NRG to have a big mana pool including charms and gear.
So that compensate for my non-maxed TK and a truelly efficient ES.

Your reasoning is sound, but I would still max out TK by the start of Hell, if not sooner. Even with 20 hard points in TK, your mana bulb can still take quite a drain, especially if you're playing aggressively and 'mixing it up'.

Blood mana can range from being a nuisance to downright dangerous. My 2800 mana 400 life ES sorc kept getting cursed by Baal and witches, and when she was cursed, spamming Nova at over 50 mana (i.e. 50 life lost per cast) at 8 fpc was dangerous, as well as making her useless while cursed.

PhatTrumpet gives excellent advice, although he didn't go to finishing school for it. :grin:

 

[PhatTrumpet]

... although he didn't go to finishing school for it. :grin:

Tact is for pansies. :tongue:

 

[Eilo Rytyj]

save the 2 points in shiver armor as well, if you're going to be doing some pre-buffing, may as well make that Memory prebuffer a +3ES, +(1-3)<cold armor> stick.

Or you could not bother with any of the cold armors at all, you do have ES up after all. I find casting buffs SOOOO ANNOYINGGG... that's why i've completely stopped keeping my +3 chilling armor staff on switch for my MF sorc, it's just too much work to switch and cast every 3 minutes...

/rant

 

[Ironwill]

Your reasoning is sound, but I would still max out TK by the start of Hell, if not sooner. Even with 20 hard points in TK, your mana bulb can still take quite a drain, especially if you're playing aggressively and 'mixing it up'.

Blood mana can range from being a nuisance to downright dangerous. My 2800 mana 400 life ES sorc kept getting cursed by Baal and witches, and when she was cursed, spamming Nova at over 50 mana (i.e. 50 life lost per cast) at 8 fpc was dangerous, as well as making her useless while cursed.

PhatTrumpet gives excellent advice, although he didn't go to finishing school for it. :grin:

Yeah maybe I'll end up doing 5 ES - 20 TK after all. Looks like more in line to what everyone keep saying.


@Eilo Rytyj

You do make an interesting point.
I know ES is checked before resistance (bleh) but does it is checked before Defense as well?!
If that's the case then I'll just keep 1 pt (already invested) in Frozen Armor and put that xtra point somewhere else.

 

[FrostBurn]

I'm pretty sure that defense is checked first when it comes to physical attacks. If the enemy misses, then your ES is untouched. If they hit you, then ES comes into play.

Still there is only a small increase in the effective chance to avoid a hit from Frozen Armour to Shiver Armour. I personally would not invest that extra point in Shiver Armour, but rather put that point somewhere more useful.

 

[Lyndis]

I've seen someone mess around with a level 40 ES build before, and hell survival was no problem at all even with less than 2000 mana. The sorc could run around with 1 life in Hell difficulty. Monsters would need to do more than 800 damage in one hit against you in order to do even ONE point of damage to your health. Normal monsters don't do that...not even gloams.

Those champion extra strong, cursed might, yeah, but that's why yuo teleport away when you fight those things. You've got mana and rejuv pots for emergencies like those.

 

[FrostBurn]

I'm afraid that seeing someone play an ES sorc is different from playing it firsthand.

At 800 physical damage and slvl 40 ES, 95% of it is re-directed to mana, i.e. 760 damage. With maxed TK the mana drained is 760 * 0.75 = 570 mana. So one strike is enough to drain more than 1/4 of your less than 2000 mana. As for the 5% of damage (40) sustained to life, you'll need damage reduced by 40 to completely nullify it.

With maxed resistances, Gloams will do less damage (or none with Thundergod's equipped), but some MDR is still required in order to run around with 1 hitpoint in Hell difficulty.

And no matter how careful you are, sooner or later a mana burn monster is going to touch you, and when that happens, you don't want to have 1 life on you. If the ES collapses and with 400 life, there is a high chance of deeds, since virtually anything in Hell is able to put a 400 life char into hit recovery, and all it takes is another hit or two during hit recovery to finish the char off.

 

[Lyndis]

Well of course I would never, ever build an ES sorc in hardcore. I'd do in in SC where dying is a mere inconvience, so an occasional death due to mana burn monster is ok. Besides, like I said, that's what we've got FCR and full rejuvs for...for emergencies.

40 DR and MDR is pretty easily achieved. Gladiator's bane + Gerke's shield + a Power circlet of DR/MDR and maybe a rare/magical ammy with some DR/MDR will do it.

 

[FrostBurn]

Looks like you're losing out on FCR there...

Edit: And I'm referring to the thread starter, who plays HC, and not you.

 

[Lyndis]

I never said my ES sorc would be killing quickly. I'd be making her to be the toughest thing to kill since Hercules. She'd either be a orb with +40 FCR rate anyways.

Let's see...2 sojs, +3 to lightning circlet (with dr/mdr), +9 to ES on switch Memory staff, +3 Eschuta's Temper (+high lightning damage), and 3 lightning skillers of +mana will give enough to get levrl 40 ES, and have level 31 in other lightning skills. Should be ok in terms of killing, even if a bit slow. Just need an Infinity on merc to break LIs.

 

[MageChick]

hmm, someone should make a spreadsheet...

Sorry, I really can't contribute to this debate. I think ES can indeed be viable in HC or SC. Trying to completely nulify the damage is an exercise in futility I'm afraid.

I need to say that I don'd play HC, so take the following as only theory.

I have about the same opinion of ES and max block. Both serve a good point, but you need to be prepared to live through it if they don't work - especially in HC. Blocking 75% of the attacks is good, but only if your vit is still high enough to stand the 25% that come through. ES is kinda the same - you will get mana burned at some point. Then you'll need the resists and vit, otherwise you'll be rebuilding your char real soon. I think both of these would be more of a liability than a help in HC. Don't get overly dependant on either one and you should be fine.

 

[FrostBurn]

I never said my ES sorc would be killing quickly. I'd be making her to be the toughest thing to kill since Hercules. She'd either be a orb with +40 FCR rate anyways.

Let's see...2 sojs, +3 to lightning circlet (with dr/mdr), +9 to ES on switch Memory staff, +3 Eschuta's Temper (+high lightning damage), and 3 lightning skillers of +mana will give enough to get levrl 40 ES, and have level 31 in other lightning skills. Should be ok in terms of killing, even if a bit slow. Just need an Infinity on merc to break LIs.

More FCR doesn't necessarily equate with faster killing. Teleporting around at more than 9 fpc is annoying, as well as slightly increasing the chance that a mana burn monster will touch you.

A merc with Infinity will certainly help. Why not go build one, and post a progress thread in here. I'm sure many will be interested and will follow your journey.

As for me, I'm off to bed.

 

[Lyndis]

Why not build one? Because I just started D2 like less than 3 weeks ago, and I am piss poor. If someone is willing to help me put together the gear I'll certainly build that sorc. I think it'd be very, very fun to play her. Just getting that gear will take forever...especially the Infinity runeword.

 

[Nilaripper]

I never said my ES sorc would be killing quickly. I'd be making her to be the toughest thing to kill since Hercules. She'd either be a orb with +40 FCR rate anyways.

..and 3 lightning skillers of +mana will give enough to get levrl 40 ES. Just need an Infinity on merc to break LIs.

A TK/ES sorc is like a tank,she is unTPPKable in HC.She is the king of defense, you can go and play public baals again, the TPPKer will attack you and make you laugh.If a good bo barb is in the party, well with 5000 mana your mana regen is like 400 per second with insight.You need the resis in HC for the mana burners, max block is also important when you are close to physical damage monsters(or bow-TPPks).
Lightning skillers of +mana dont exist:+mana=prefix,+skills=prefix.
40 fcr is too slow,gor for the 63 fcr BP at least
I made some calculations for a max mana build recently:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=493861