Enigma

Tejadia

Diabloii.Net Member
Enigma

Well as a relative newcomer to the fourm, I remember in my B.Net days playing my Zon with her Enigma and was just wondering.... how would you describe how hard it is to make an Enigma in SP? Or is it even worth it if you actually do get the runes?
 

Neksja

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Yeah, Enigma is worth the runes, but don't get your hopes up. You can spend a lifetime without finding those runes.
 

bassano

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Enigma and tyrael are items whitch I want to have first than I finish my diablo career but make enigma is not easy beacuse it requires long time of boring rushing or LK running. I wants enigma first than finished year 2008 but I do not know if I am able rush that runes but I will try it. :)
 

Marvel

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Uhh rushing its better to not get it then. If you rely on rushing its no the big achievement it should be it needs to have a special feeling to it. Dont put up times i should be done here and there let the time decide itself :p

what about quitting d2 anyway (you dont quit d2, you take a break) its like quit eating and we all know what that means :p

just my two cents =)
 

Docturnal

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

In my opinion enigma is a great runeword and it is worth it if you want a good multi purpose end game option.
But I am a bit more pragmatic than that. No build i am contemplating need enigma, but one or possibly two would need dream. Thus Id rather make myself a dream shield/helm if I found a jah rune. (dont know what Id do if I found the ber first though)
 

Uzziah

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Well as a relative newcomer to the fourm, I remember in my B.Net days playing my Zon with her Enigma and was just wondering.... how would you describe how hard it is to make an Enigma in SP? Or is it even worth it if you actually do get the runes?
Worth the runewords is a matter of opinion.

As for how hard it is to get the runes, well put it this way, you will probably find 100-150 Ist runes off of normal monsters before 1 Jah rune. I played about 20 hours in Hell before seeing my first Ist rune drop off of a normal monster.



 

Elfie

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

As for me these runes are some kind of a dream. I've never seen Ber, not to talk about Jah...
 

Jingizu

Banned
Re: Enigma

I played about 20 hours in Hell before seeing my first Ist rune drop off of a normal monster.
I have never seen Ist drop from monster, playing in hell last five years and having ~40 Pats/Mats :no:

Getting the runes is impossible for majority of living people, who do not want to sacrifice a part of their life to some boring activity (LK runs, HF rushing), because the probability of finding the runes "questing" or normally "mfing" is very low.

If someone can't sleep without enigma (Infinity, Dream, HoJ...), it's better to play BNet or unlegit (if unlegit, please, let us know before mp'ing or trading :p). But I don't think that life without high runewords is deep misery, d2 is funny enough even without them, isn't it...? :scratchchin:



 

Hakai_no_Tenshi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Well as a relative newcomer to the fourm, I remember in my B.Net days playing my Zon with her Enigma
I guess that might work for sporadic teleportation ... have you seen the FCR breakpoints for a zon?

Anyway, Enigma is always worth it *if* you can get it but I have found only 1 ber rune (from cows) in my 7+ years of playing so don't expect to complete it anytime soon. I remember MPing with a bunch of friends and just before killing Baal, I would joke about Baal dropping an enigma :crazyeyes:

--T



 

Corrupted

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

It is not entirely impossible with the bugged LK drops. (Unless you have the LK luck of me or jjscud.) You will be spending a 3-digit amount of hours running LK to see it done though. Enigma is really just an armor for PvP freaks or hardcore mf'ers who simply hate sorcs. I regret having made mine because I'm a sorc fanatic, so to me it was pretty much just wasting a ber for infinity.

Edit: If the LK-theory holds truth, it would take you averagely about 220 hours of LK-running if you manage 100 runs per hour. Could be much more, or much less though if you have krovak/nubikoen luck ;)
 

Tejadia

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Getting mixed reactions towards making it here... but LK would be the best way to go about doing it then? For some reason, I was under the impression cubing from the countess would've been quicker than LK...
 

Thyiad

Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian
Re: Enigma

HF rushing would be a better way IMO. No doubt someone will be along with a maths comparison between HF rushing, LK running and countess running shortly.
 

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Some rough math:

LK
---
You find one of the high runes (Ber and Sur in this case) once each every 11k or so LK runs. You need to do 2 sets of 11k runs to find 2 Ber and 2 Sur = Jah and Ber. 1 minute per run might be a reasonable estimate when you count muling off all those jewels and charms and stuff (assuming you use the PGems for rerolling as you go along). So perhaps something like 370 hours of hardcore LK running for Enigma, although you'll get a whole bunch of other very nice stuff as well. One minute might be too slow of an estimate though, maybe Corrupted's 220 hour guess is better. I'm pretty sure he's been doing more LK runs than I have.


HF Rushing
----------
Every HF rush gives you 1.352 Gul on average (only counting Pul+). You need 32 Gul for 1 Ber, or 96 Gul for 1 Jah and 1 Ber. 96 / 1.352 is 71.01, so 71 sets of HF rushes will give you an Enigma. Getting the characters to the HF takes about an hour, collecting the runes takes about an hour more (maybe slightly less? Never done it in 1.11), so we're looking at around 71 * 2 = 142 hours of hardcore HF rushing, but you won't have anything else than your Enigma after this. You might also want to count the time it takes to set up a rusher in 1.07 or 1.09b.

Your call to choose which of these methods is best. If all you care about is getting an Enigma as quickly as possible, it seems pretty clear, at least.

Again, the math is rough. Adjust the numbers as you see fit.

Edit: Indeed Thyiad. Started writing this before I saw your post :)

I don't know the math for the Countess, but I was under the impression it was roughly one billion times slower than LK or HF rushing for high high runes.

Edit again: I was bored so I also counted how many gems you'd need for the cubing, on average, 314.26. Hope you have lots of regular Topazes laying around!
 
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moo-cow

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

those HF run times seem a bit fast for me but I haven't been able to pull it off even with my crazy configuration. The numbers I heard basically amounted to ~3hrs per "set" and between NM and hell an average of an ist and a gul.

if it were me I'd use a Ber for beast and i would've used a jah for faith if x/2 hadn't been disproven.
 

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

those HF run times seem a bit fast for me but I haven't been able to pull it off even with my crazy configuration. The numbers I heard basically amounted to ~3hrs per "set" and between NM and hell an average of an ist and a gul.

if it were me I'd use a Ber for beast and i would've used a jah for faith if x/2 hadn't been disproven.
I collected the runes in 1.10s when I did HF rushes, so my collector was basically crap and collecting the runes took a long time for me. I was under the impression 1 hour was reasonable in 1.11 though, others feel free to correct me.

1 hour for the rush itself is definitely doable though, my times were right above the hour mark (65 minutes or so) and I had very very modest equipment. It was in 1.07, maybe 1.09 is slower I don't know.

Also, if your goal is an Enigma it's probably in your best interest to shoot for fast times :) You'll need it to fight the insanity.


 

Mursilis

Diabloii.Net Member
Code:
Runes:
Jah + Ith + Ber

Stats:
+2 to all skills
+45% Faster Run/Walk
+1 to Teleport
+750-775 Defense (varies)
+0-74 Strength (based on character level)
Increase Maximum Life 5%
Damage reduced by 8%
14 Life after each kill
15% Damage taken goes to Mana
+1-99% Better chance of getting magic items
(based on character level)
Personally I don't find this armor worth the effort or cost of the runes needed. Each mod it gives can be covered by something far less expensive.

+skills: Granted this is the hardest one to cover, but +1 skills is easy with a Vipermagi or several other armor types. Or just a pair of skiller charms.

FRW: Charms have FRW but it's even more common on boots. Besides which, how fast to you really need to walk anyway? And why in the world do you need to walk fast if you are teleporting everywhere?

Teleport: Amulets, circlets and Naj's Puzzler all give teleport charges. They aren't the best things to try boss running with a non-sorceress build, but if your map is good you can just recharge them from time to time and it will be worth it.

+Strength: Charms give strength. Or use some nice rares that spawn with strength as one of it's mods. Or as a shocker put some hard stat points into Strength and settle for 100 less life.
 

Eric Xanthu

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Caution: more of the same.

Enigma is neat, but there are so few builds that can really benefit and even then, not by much. Fishymancer? No doubt, but I'd rather have Beast first. Hammerdin, Windy? Only if you have a real craving for running one of these types: for less cost you can put Infinity on your sorc and do a better job. I doubt I could name another build I'd use it on.

So yeah, of course it's neat. But why bother with Enigma when you can have Infinity on your Sorc AND Beast on your Fishy for the same cost? I think it's only a worthwhile item in a Bnet economy.
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Enigma is hard to replace. HUGE STR bonus, +2 skils (all), huge MF and 45%run/walk are top choices for any MF character.
Now take teleport, it's VERY HARD to replace teleport oskill. Anyone has good amulet with teleport charges? Usable for every character? (You can't have +all skills on rare amus... same goes for Circlets)
And Naj's puzzler has to be on switch - now try to tele on top of something, then switch then start to do the work...

Yes, we can debate if Infinity+Beast is not better for the same cost. (But Infinity is not an option for me, so I will skip the debate :) )

EDIT: Mursilis, FRW is good for MFers and zons. Problem with charms is that you can't have more than ~7 SC in your backpack and if you don't have skillers with FRW, then additional 45FRW is huge!
 

Mursilis

Diabloii.Net Member
I don't know, my MFer does well with just 20% FRW. I'm sure Pindle runs would be maybe a second faster with more, but still for a general character that much FRW isn't necessary.
 

Crazy Runner Guy

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Enigma

Code:
Runes:
Jah + Ith + Ber

Stats:
+2 to all skills
+45% Faster Run/Walk
+1 to Teleport
+750-775 Defense (varies)
+0-74 Strength (based on character level)
Increase Maximum Life 5%
Damage reduced by 8%
14 Life after each kill
15% Damage taken goes to Mana
+1-99% Better chance of getting magic items
(based on character level)
Personally I don't find this armor worth the effort or cost of the runes needed. Each mod it gives can be covered by something far less expensive.

+skills: Granted this is the hardest one to cover, but +1 skills is easy with a Vipermagi or several other armor types. Or just a pair of skiller charms.

FRW: Charms have FRW but it's even more common on boots. Besides which, how fast to you really need to walk anyway? And why in the world do you need to walk fast if you are teleporting everywhere?

Teleport: Amulets, circlets and Naj's Puzzler all give teleport charges. They aren't the best things to try boss running with a non-sorceress build, but if your map is good you can just recharge them from time to time and it will be worth it.

+Strength: Charms give strength. Or use some nice rares that spawn with strength as one of it's mods. Or as a shocker put some hard stat points into Strength and settle for 100 less life.
@ + Skills - There are not a whole lot of armors that give +2 skills. The ones that do have high stat requirements (Valor, at 165), are hard to get (Chains of Honor, which requires a Ber and Ist rune). Also, this applies to all skills, not just class specific. So this boosts the teleport, (making it cost less) and any non-class specific skill boost (like Call to Arms's BO/BC or Passion's Zeal). Again, if you're super-optimizing your character, +2 skills is where it's at. Eventually, you're going to run out of space to add skills, and you'll need to squeak out as many points as you can.

@ Teleport: the beauty of this is that it works for any character and it does not occupy your weapon swap (where CtA or pre-buffs go, like a barb's echoing weapons). Look at the chars that have made 99. Of the ones that were not sorceresses, none of them did not use Enigma. Simply put, Enigma makes great characters godly.

@Strength - The key with the plus strength is it saves so many stat points. On a barb at 92, that is 69 stat points saved. 69 points x 4 life/vita point = 288 additional HP. This is further boosted by BO, making it not unreasonable to get an additional 300 or more life on top of that. Using charms to boost strength is woefully inefficient, because a small charm or strength gives up to +2 strength (4, 6 or 8 life), whereas a small charm of vita gives 16 to 20 life. In a battle of life boost per inventory space, vita charms win.

It should not matter to a person who is not super-optimizing their character, but to a PvP char or a Baal runner, every stat point counts.

The FRW helps because you're not going to be teleporting everywhere. You need it for maneuvering.

Simply but, Enigma is one of the best armors in the game, right up there with 07 valor, Chains of Honor, Fortitude, etc. About the only thing Enigma is missing is +res all.



 
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