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Enigma vs Bramble

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Zangeif, Mar 22, 2005.

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  1. Zangeif

    Zangeif IncGamers Member

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    Enigma vs Bramble

    Slow day at work so I decided to write a nice long post

    Well the Bramble vs. Enigma debate is always a big issue on these forums, I’ve decided to write a comprehensive post on why I find Enigma to be far superior, and also give some insight into things to take into account when building an assassin. I will focus on a ww sin since I know them much better than kickers, but both play pretty similarly so you can probably apply most of this post to kickers as well.

    First of all I will explain why balance is the key to a good character. I made a post very similar to this in the barb forum a while ago, and while the concepts apply to barbs in a much more direct manner, they are true for assassins (and all other characters) as well. When a character is built for pvp, you are aiming to kill your opponent before he kills you. If you accomplish this, you win the duel. Simple, right?

    You can look at everything in terms of how much damage you expect to do over the course of the duel. This is (damage/sec) X (seconds you expect the duel to last). The first value is your offensive capability, which is based on the product of your AR, damage, and ability to land attacks on your opponent. The second value is your survivability, which is based on the product of your life, ability to dodge/block opponent’s attacks, and either defense or resists. If the product of these 2 values is higher than your opponents life, you will win the duel. Therefore, it's most beneficial to get the product of these 2 values as high as possible in order to win the most duels.

    Obviously if you are multiplying a large number by a small one, your product will benefit more by raising the small value than the large one. Therefore, you should increase survivability when your offense is high and vice versa. Granted this equation is not possible to assign specific numbers to, and the equation can never be calculated, but understanding it explains why balance is important and gives a greater understanding of the pvp game.

    The longer you expect to live (life, defense or resists, ability to dodge/block opponent’s attacks) the more important damage becomes

    The more damage you expect to do (damage, AR) The more important your survivability becomes.

    Now, lets look at offense and defense separately.

    Offense is based on the relationship between AR and damage. Therefore, the more AR you have, the more important damage becomes, and vice versa.

    Defense is based on the relationship between life and your defense/resists. Therefore, The more def/resists you have, the more important life becomes, and vice versa.

    This is why balance is key. You cannot make blanket statements like damage > life, or AR > defense. The importance of these values changes as other values change. Finding the balance to do the most damage over the course of a duel is what every pvp character is aiming for.

    Now, when applying this to the Bramble vs. Enigma debate I think it is clear why Enigma is the superior of the 2 armors.

    Pro’s for Bramble

    - 75% venom damage increase. Bramble adds 125% added damage. However, you can use a Bramble to prebuff and then wear Enigma. The difference in damage is here is 75%.
    - 50% fhr. This is not too useful for a ww sin. Most characters that are going to be stunlocking you need to get close in order to do so. Since ww is an uninterruptible skill, you can simply whirl through them and get out of the lock. The exception is against other ww sins who can chip away at you with MBs from far away.
    - Poison resist. Only useful vs other ww sins as other poison using pvp characters are very rare.

    I believe that Bramble is the best choice for ww sin vs ww sin because of the 2 reasons above. However, since these duels will be quite rare compared to the rest of your duels, I wouldn’t advise putting all those extra points into str just to wear it on rare occasions.

    Pro’s for Enigma

    - Teleport allows you to catch your opponent when Dflight would be either too slow, or out of range.
    - Teleport allows you to maintain 60% block since you do not need to run after your opponent
    - High str bonus means more life
    - +2 skills is a nice added bonus


    Enigma benefits your survivability AND your offense greatly. Although you are doing 75% less venom damage, you will be able to catch good fast tele casters much more often. You will actually do MORE damage per second with Enigma than with Bramble. Besides the extra offense, the ability to teleport while maintaining your claw block adds a great deal to your survivability, as does the extra life gained from Enigma’s str bonus. I know a lot of people like high damage on the character screen, it is pretty. However, it is nowhere near as useful as the versatility that Enigma will give you in duels.

    To put things simply, If you use Bramble vs. a good caster, you will not benefit at all from the 75% increase in poison damage. You will hit the much less if ever, and your damage/sec will actually decrease greatly.

    Well I just typed this thing up in a few minutes, it’s not worded perfectly but I hope you get the idea. Remember, I understand that there are a ton of intangibles in the formula for perfecting a character, and I know that it can never be calculated using real numbers. However, the theory is sound and it should be taken into account when building any pvp character.
     
  2. Zangeif

    Zangeif IncGamers Member

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    Something I want to add:

    My comparison of Bramble vs. Enigma is a comparison for dueling great pvpers. Bramble is fine for killling most pubby casters as they are mostly idiots. It may even be better than Enigma for dueling bad players. However, these people should be easy to beat with either armor, so you should use the armor that lets you kill the good players as well.

    I'm sure some people without too much dueling experience think MB + DFlight or a WoF lock + DFlight is enough to catch a good caster. This is not true. The caster will never let you on his screen to cast a MB, and even if you do get off a lucky MB, he will usually have enough fhr to tele or run away by the time your 24 frame DFlight reaches him.

    Add to this the fact that Enigma's defensive capabilities are also far superior to Bramble and I think you have an obvious choice.
     
  3. turmania

    turmania IncGamers Member

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    LOL I remember you zangeif we had a heated discussion about bramble vd enigma earlier on. i respect your thoughts and comments but I still disagree with you. I'm not saying enigma is a bad armor its one of the best around. like you said it gives the ability to teleport, damage reduce, increase life, massive strengh bonus which gives you more life, and +2 to all skills, there is no mod on enigma that is bad for any character.

    your play style is more based on teleporting then dragon flighting in to an opponent. either by name locking them or trying to get close to them. I play the other way I use dragon flighing in techique to an opponent i dont care if it hits or not, i start ww'ing from then on short ww's or long ones depending on the class i'm duelling against.

    I started to believe whilst reading your long but nicely put post. that you built your ww'sin primarily for caster killing. which in my opinion, you are not utilising your ww'sin to her potential, she can fight melee duels as well. for caster killing you don't need too much venom dmg as they will have low life to begin with, therefore you are more free to choose your armor, all you have to make sure against casters is to have max resists, and decent weapon block. on the other hand fighting meleee opponents you are going to need more then the extra life and strength enigma provides. you can't take on melee paladins or ww barbs with your ww dmg only, you are gonna be to weak against them a) physical dmg on weapon is low compared to those chars b) they have high defense you have bad AR. you can take care of the ar problems with demon limb and or angelic choices to some extent. we will all have this problem with bramble or enigma doesn't matter.

    like you said vs ww'sin, bramble is better. but this is actually to all the other melee chars as well. a ww sin has open wounds so does barb, barb has loads of deadly strike, critical strike and crushing blow as well. so in theory without venom lets say no matter how much life, weapon block we have or even teleport we will never beat any melee chars unless they are playing as if they are drunk or they have a terrible lag. the only other advantage a ww 'sin has against those chars, is her side skills. what i mean buy side skills are venom, trap tree and mind blast. now i will leave the trap tree aside, its not powerfull source of dmg but some very good duelers can max 2 trap skills to some decent dmg not a lot of dmg but everything counts. anyway back to the topic, sure you can prebuff venom with bramble and go out on the battlefield with enigma. but its too much of a hassle and venom does have a pretty short timer, it doesnt last long like enchant. so its too much of a hassle but some do use it like you said. however still wearng a bramble does help. immensely, reasons are no one really cares about poison resists as they do with fire and lightning, good duelrs will have still 75% resistance to poison in a hell game but nothing more then that. and this is why every extra poison dmg helps a lot, it brings the life of your oppoennt down very quickly. in a mellee duel its going to be very fast, you have to bring other chars life down as soon as possible, the only way you can effectively do this is via venom. and no i don't use poison facets as you had suggested earlier. i do believe they are usefull though, i use ber on my shako, to hit 50% damage reduce, i don't use bugged items or this, so i'm playing the legit way.

    but still i'm not dishing enigma don;t get me wrong its one of the best around, i use it on my hammerdin, wind druid, 2x hybrid trapper kicker builds, and bone necro. but i do believe bramble if you can get a good one of course is very usefull. and i'm one of the old players, been thru many items duels, ligas everything. i'm one of those considering pottiing of any kind bad mannered.

    in the end its your play style that wins or loses your duels. i'm very happy with my bramble on a pure kicker and ww'sin.

    on a side note, i usually duel with my pvp trapper/kicker hybrid, she uses enigma. the only duels i lose to ww'sin considering she is legit as not using wisps + thundergods. is to a bramble sin and i have over 220 resist on hell. taking into account of anya bug. she brings me down so quickly with extra poison dmg i'm usually shell shocked about it. i have a very toough duel vs a bramble sin.
     
  4. papercut

    papercut IncGamers Member

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    The way I see it is that the only duel that you honestly need the extra damage from bramble is in a ww vs ww duel, because IMHO that is the only time it really helps enough to make it benificial enough to use. And I dont know about you but I really dont wanna make my sin for ww vs ww only, cause 1) it is boring and 2) you will lose half of your duels(vs barbs). I would say the bramble helps vs godly high def paladins like smiters, fohers with maxed defience and v/ts, but I have seen bramble sins do no better vs them then my enigmasin and in many cases they do worse(Issue there is mainly my AR, cause I am to lazy to prebuff and switch gear, and both assassins can have AR issues).

    Now after saying that I dont think that the dmg benifits of bramble outweigh the mobility, more life and better defense of having enigma, at least not with my style of play, ie hit and run, trap whore and mb spam up the wazoo. I honestly think that both are quite viable and it mainly comes down to style of play and who you expect to face, but as most pub and priv duels are filled with all kinds of sorcs, necros, wind druids, hammerdins and trappers I feel that the enigmasin is better equipped to face those types of duels, and can be almost as good if not as good vs other non caster builds barring wwbarb and bramblesin. Dunno, rambling now so i will stop ;p
     
  5. derekdoo

    derekdoo Banned

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    engima
    treks + fade makes psn damage quite low, also antidotes make psn resis up to 85
     
  6. Lunatic

    Lunatic IncGamers Member

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    Even with maxed resist venom still does massive dmg.
     
  7. TheKing

    TheKing IncGamers Member

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    ok, i have a bramble wwsin and i can kill good casters as well as enigma wwsins... why wear enigma? to chase casters? you`ll never have faster cast as a socr, so they`ll teleport faster then you and have the time to cast some spells... however, why to chase casters when they could came at you... you can stun lock them while they came at you, traps and mind blast(not maxed) with 20% fcr(tg golves)... why attack when you could wait for them to came into your traps?? enigma is good vs bowama with KB... w/o KB you can kill them with bramble(you`ll have 86% fhr)... and don`t forget that in most tournaments and oficial duels teleport is not allowed and you`ll lose tons of dmg, fhr, pzn rez thorns aura(this hurts melee chars)... anyway, if you like to be a offensive wwsin, go with enigma, if you like to have mass dmg and play defensive, go with bramble...
     
  8. Zangeif

    Zangeif IncGamers Member

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    papercut put it well in his post, I want to help clarify what he said though.

    The ww mechanic is unbelievably overpowered when compareed to other melee attacks. Because of this, a ww assassin should be able to beat other melee characters with either Enigma or Bramble. While you may have more life at the end of the duel if you use Bramble, you will still win with Enigma as well. The only exception to this is when you fight another ww assassin or a ww barb. WW barbs are impossible to beat regardless of armor choice, so when it comes down to it, the only duel that Bramble will affect positively is one against another ww assassin (I don't play ladder, Grief smiters may be hard/impossible for ww sins to beat but I don't know)

    If you wanted, you could build your assassin with extra strength so that he could wear Bramble vs melee or Enigma vs casters. However, since Bramble is only needed to win against one other build, I don't think it is worth it to weaken your chances against EVERY caster class just to strengthen it against other ww sins.

    TheKing - You can't wait for good casters to come to you because they never will. Go duel a top necro without teleport, I guarantee he will NEVER be on your screen for a mb or DFlight opportunity. You can easily chase and catch casters even though they teleport faster than you. They need to stop to cast a spell in your direction. When they do, you get on their screen, establish a namelock, and mb them, followed by either a DFlight or a wof. Then you can usually tele in and land a ww.

    Lastly, I don't know why people claim teleport isn't allowed in tournaments or private duels. It most definately is on USEast, and I'm pretty sure it is on USWest too.
     
  9. Lunatic

    Lunatic IncGamers Member

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    Most leagues on europe either prohibit the use of external skills that aren't found on that char (except for Chaos and WW). The other leagues that do allow this usually restrict other items like absorb or so when you do use those skills. The difference between USwest/east and europe always was big.
     
  10. papercut

    papercut IncGamers Member

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    If you want I'll be glad to demontrate out hard it can be to hit a semi-decent teleporter with DF alone, even though my only caster is a Tals sorc I am pretty sure it she casts fast enough to make my point ;p

    I am on USEast Ladder.
     
  11. diskoren

    diskoren IncGamers Member

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    For the venom dmg comparison:

    Code:
    1,75 * 1,75 = 3,0625 'Cast venom and strike with bramble and tranggloves
    
    1,75 * 1,25 = 2,1875 'Prebuff with brambe and tranggloves, strike with trang
    
    1,25 * 1,25 = 1,5625 'Cast venom and strike with tranggloves
    
    3,0625/2,1875 = 1,4
    
    3,0625/1,5625 = 1,96
    diskoren
     
  12. saito

    saito IncGamers Member

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    I think bramble is better, have you never felt as fb shoots into your back while you are runing and you just get into sort of dodgin animation and can't escape or do df? I think high fhr makes ww sin better, because if you get hit you don't stop like an idiot for a short time, and if you can't catch caster just don't try to catch him If he's runing let him run and w8 for your opportunity to hit I found even if sorc is very good she always makes mistakes

    but after all ww sins sux, trapsins rulz :), and playing as assasin is more fun than as barb/sorc hybrid
     
  13. Zangeif

    Zangeif IncGamers Member

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    .08 valk + shael, 20fhr on duped resist boots, fhr skiller and a 5res/5fhr sc = 87 fhr for 86 breakpoint which is 4 frames.

    It's pretty funny that you would notice a difference in 1 frame of fhr but you don't care about DFlight being 13 frames slower than a 65 fcr tele.

    Statements like "even good sorcs make mistakes" just don't make sense. Even good ww assassins make mistakes too, and they will balance out with the mistakes the sorc makes.
     
  14. Lunatic

    Lunatic IncGamers Member

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    Just because you can't play something right doesn't mean it sucks.
     
  15. '22'Souljah

    '22'Souljah IncGamers Member

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    Whisper me on USWest NL *xkrayzi3x to duel a ww sin
    and wtf is a barb/sorc hybrid they're two different classes?
     
  16. turmania

    turmania IncGamers Member

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    [QUOTE='22'Souljah]Whisper me on USWest NL *xkrayzi3x to duel a ww sin
    and wtf is a barb/sorc hybrid they're two different classes?[/QUOTE]


    i think he tried to mean, a hybrid as in using melee skill and caster skill in one build like kicker/trapper or ww/trapper.

    now i like trappers but i definetley can not say they own a ww'sin. weapon block is a wonderfull skill for a ww'er and she las loads of it. usually a trapper has little chance vs a ww'sin. unless she is a hybrid trapper.

    i'm a major fan of trapper/kicker hybrids. i like them on pvm and to some extent on pvp stage as well. but they sure are not the best on pvp stage.
     
  17. saito

    saito IncGamers Member

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    ww sin is nothing more than a barb with tele only has low fcr,low def, low dmg and is just intermiedete tipe of character, where trapsin is pure assasin which uses traps and some help skils, you don't need to pretend to be barb and relay on smth like ww, ww is ****... they just suck just put on some gear vs psn and they die
     
  18. TheKing

    TheKing IncGamers Member

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    ANY tipe of wwsin can kill a trapasin, trapasin are good for townguarding... nothing else... and don`t req much brain to use one...
     
  19. turmania

    turmania IncGamers Member

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    Now saito, you are wrong and you are using a language that will get ppl angry, no need for that.

    a ww'sin true she doesn't dish more dmg as ww babr, she has less life,less ar, less def, and less deadly stirke and so forth then a ww barb. but she has other attributes, weapon block, side skills like venom, trap skills. those are pretty powerful skills if used right. a ww'sin vs a trapper, assuming ww'sin doesnt use thundergods and absorb items is a 50-50 duel. don;t underestimate a good ww sin with a powerfull bramble armor and u can use aborb vs their poison, altough not much, but they cau use absorb on your light dmg as well.so its not a really nice way of thinking, yuo can absorb them they can absorb you and they can abosrb your light dmg more efficiently probably you will end up healing them...

    i like trappers and consider them on of the best pvm and pvp builds around. but they can be easily countered in pvp as well. a good trapper is hard to make, and hard to play right. a good trapper would have a good mix of light dmg, fire blast.
     
  20. '22'Souljah

    '22'Souljah IncGamers Member

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    put on some gear vs lightning and trappers die ez
    you still didn't reply about dueling my ww sin? come on it "sucks"
     
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