# Energy advantages over mana

#### Ax2Grind

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Energy advantages over mana

AFAIK, the only benefit of energy is in attaining maximum mana - it helps in nothing else, unlike Diablo. I've reviewed the maximum mana formula and here's my immediate conclusion.
Facts & Formulae Archive said:
Maximum Mana Potential

Formula for calculating the maximum amount of mana a player will have after items, stat points, etc.:

Maximum mana = ((BaseEnergy - StartEnergy + Level - 1) * ClassBonus + ItemMana + StartEnergy) * (1 + PercentMana / 100) + ItemEnergy * ClassBonus

Where:

BaseEnergy = amount of Energy without items

ClassBonus =
Amazon : 1.5
Assassin : 1.5
Barbarian : 1
Druid : 2
Necromancer : 2
Paladin : 1.5
Sorceress : 2

ItemEnergy = total "+X to Energy" and "+X to All Attributes" gained from items

ItemMana = total "+X to Mana" gained from items

Level = character's level

PercentMana = total "Increase Maximum Mana X%" gained from items and skills

StartEnergy = amount of Energy the class starts with:
Amazon : 15
Assassin : 25
Barbarian : 10
Druid : 20
Necromancer : 25
Paladin : 15
Sorceress : 35

Note: The assassin gets 1.5 mana per lvl up and 1.75 mana per point of energy. Therefore this formula is inaccurate for assassins.
Assuming a Barb reached CLvl99 with no added energy, there'd be an obvious benefit of %mana if it existed, since it's multiplied against a sum which includes item mana, while item energy simply gets added to the end. So item mana, point for point, will be the same or better than item energy, but item energy would only be the same as item mana if no added energy or %mana exists. Can the same be said for all other classes?

The maximum energy from items appears to be: 340 for a Barb, 330 for a Sorc, 325 for everyone else. I suppose there must be an easier way to figure out the ideal amount of item energy versus other mods to attain a healthy maximum other than casting until everything is dead or you run out of mana, with the latter meaning add more. I started by deciding end gear item energy summed with added energy to reach potion critical of 200. Is that a good place to start?

#### Orphan

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Ax2Grind said:
AFAIK, the only benefit of energy is in attaining maximum mana - it helps in nothing else, unlike Diablo.
Correct. If it were my way, I'd use energy both as a equip requirement for certain items (mostly magic-aligned items, like occy, and spirit) -and- as a sort of enhanced spell damage modifier (though in this case, spells would need to be rebalanced of course). As it stands at the moment, almost every build keeps energy at base, even sorceresses, which makes the stat a bit of a joke.

Ax2Grind said:
Assuming a Barb reached CLvl99 with no added energy, there'd be an obvious benefit of %mana if it existed, since it's multiplied against a sum which includes item mana, while item energy simply gets added to the end. So item mana, point for point, will be the same or better than item energy, but item energy would only be the same as item mana if no added energy or %mana exists. Can the same be said for all other classes?
Note that battle orders has mana %, but it sounds like you might have been referring to item-based mana %?

But generally, item-based mana is better than item-based energy. This is not only because of the reasons you mentioned above, but also mostly because the item-based mana is usually higher than the item-based energy. I mean, the highest +energy that can spawn on a magical item is +30, while the highest +mana is +120, which would give even a sorceress twice more mana than +30 energy (and four times more mana for a barbarian).

Ax2Grind said:
The maximum energy from items appears to be: 340 for a Barb, 330 for a Sorc, 325 for everyone else. I suppose there must be an easier way to figure out the ideal amount of item energy versus other mods to attain a healthy maximum other than casting until everything is dead or you run out of mana, with the latter meaning add more. I started by deciding end gear item energy summed with added energy to reach potion critical of 200. Is that a good place to start?
I don't really know what you're aiming for here. I get the impression you want a build that doesn't need to worry about mana much (even low levels)? Though I'm not sure what build. In any event, there are generally better alternatives than to put many points into energy. If this isn't what you mean, then I might need you to elaborate abit more.

#### Ax2Grind

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Details...

The more added energy or percentage mana, the more effective item mana is, and yet neither affects item energy. So, if you put enough attributes into energy, item energy is only needed to reach 200 - the critical hit point for potions. I averaged this at the same amount per level as vitality (also going for critical), so for each class:

Strength: 1 per level;
Dexterity: 1 per level;
Vitality: 1.5 per level;
Energy: 1.5 per level.

For Assassins this reaches 118Str/Dex, not including Alkor's rewards or stopping at CLvl96 with them (the highest you should ever go outside of the Race for 99 on ladder), because that's the exact requirements of scissors suwayyah. For other classes, less of one and more of another is usually ideal - even for Barbarians who'd get strength bonuses from Immortal King's other pieces when trying to wear the ogre maul and sacred armor (you're rarely blocking and getting a huge attack rating bonus from the full set). Paladins rarely need that strength, choosing more dexterity for 74%+ blocking, and so on.

At the same time, this average - with item energy and vitality - can reach 200 for both criticals. I understand a lot of people suggest no attribute points into energy, and certainly people can choose to place those points into vitality instead (as they probably do in hardcore), but if playing the way Blizzard suggests (don't say it), I'd think - on average - 98/98/147/147 with 15 spread points, if you go above CLvl96, is ideal starting design, give or take.

#### helvete

##### Diabloii.Net Member
The "critical potion breakpoint" is actually only where the curve stops being linear and starts flattening out.

#### Ax2Grind

##### Diabloii.Net Member
I'm aware, but the point is if those 147 energy points are placed into vitality it changes the way you play: less reliance on health potions and more on mana. Before you could buy mana potions it was a mad dash to snatch a potion while cowing, so I just want consistency (I may also still be just as trained to fill out the character as I am in hording certain things, if you've seen my trade threads). Now, I just fill my belt, gulp and forget, while refilling from whatever potions drop. Also, without so much reliance on mana items, like charms and such, I can use more skillers for damage, and for melee characters that means more leech.

For everyone it means faster killing, but in order for those +skills to really be beneficial, due to most skills curving, you'd spread out some of those skill points. I wouldn't place twenty points into Holy Shield unless I wanted defense, since the blocking tapers off, and if I want defense I'd probably put points into Defiance for the synergy, so you're talking about a specific build, etc.

IOW, if you spread out your attribute points, spread out your skill points, too, to take advantage of those bonuses. You've probably read my hybrid drafts in the Paladin/Amazon forums, so this may make a bit more sense with that in mind.

#### helvete

##### Diabloii.Net Member
maxing HS is mostly done for smiters for the added damage.

#### Ax2Grind

##### Diabloii.Net Member
helvete said:
maxing HS is mostly done for smiters for the added damage.
Exactly, and - as it turns out - my Paladin also has the synergy for Holy Shield:
• Sacrifice: 20
• Zeal: 4
• Smite: 20
• Holy Shield: 20
• Fanaticism: 19
• Defiance: 10
• Redemption: 7
• Pre-requisites/one-point wonders: 10
It's the adapted six-in-one Exemplar build I drafted some time ago (Martyr/Vindicator/Defender/Zealot/Dragoon/Relinquisher), but - in this case - Zeal and Smite are very low mana usage, with Smite unable to leech it, and Holy Shield is done in town almost exclusively, so Redemption and Zeal should be enough for that. The point was for other builds, though.