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Dueling Games II

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Select, Mar 27, 2004.

  1. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    Dueling Games II

    Well Post games here. Be sure to state the Level and Class of your dueler and of course the IP of the game. Or ask for a host.




    GENERAL RULES
    -No use of any bugged, hacked, or duped items.
    -Please try to be polite.
    -No slow items are allowed for Physical Attackers. (Cleglaws, Blackhorns, etc)For example a necromancer or sorceress may use a Blackhorns face as a source of lightning absorb if they choose to.
    -Items that give Knockback (KB) are not allowed on any character class. Skills that have KB such as charge, smite, leap attack are OK to use.
    -No potions, wells, shrines, mercenaries.
    -No minions allowed which cannot be summoned in town (no Revives for the Necromancer). Decoy is OK to use.
    -Only 1 Absorb item per Elemental Damage. You can not use 2 lightsabres or 2 Ravenfrosts.
    -Poison Damage is limited to 200 poison damage from items per player. Characters are not bound by the 200 rule when skills are involved (Venom, Poison nova) (For VLLD and LLD keep to poison to none, or below 50)
    -You cannot use the charges of a charged item. Items with % chance to cast amplify damage or iron maiden are not allowed.
    -No .08 vita items. This includes Arkaines Valor, Harlequin Crest Shako, Baranars Star, and Gerkes Sanctuary.
    -Items that grant auras may be used with the exception of Holy Freeze
    -Rising Sun Amulet is banned.
    -Marrowalk boots equipped on Necromancers is banned (unless consent to use them is given in game unanimously).
    - No class but the Sorceress may use the Teleport skill.

    -I believe these should be guidelines as in, some exceptions can be made in game as long as it’s a unanimous decision between the duelers. It is my experience that duel games go much smoother if the duelers can make decisions in game when a problem arises (with the rules in mind as a basis). So if no one has a problem with Marrowalks for example, then a necromancer should be able to use them in that particular gaming session.

    TEAM DUELING RULES
    -Matches do not begin until both parties have clearly signified their readiness.
    -Leaving the Blood Moor is a loss, except for a Barbarian party that wants to pre-buff w/ Battle Order, but you may only get this once. If it times out, too bad.
    -In a Team duel, when you die stay in town until the duel is over.
    -Holy Bolt/Medic Paladins cannot be used.

    No Fast Run/Walk caps


    BANNED SKILLS
    Decrepify
    Bone Prison
    Holy Freeze
    Holy Bolt
     
  2. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    OK now that i have that up again.


    High level dueling game up. 70+ 68.7.1.66

    I do have a low lvl dueler and a mid lvl guy id be willing to host with as well, but that depends on who shows up :D
     
  3. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    game down.
     
  4. 6stringspanky

    6stringspanky IncGamers Member

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    anyone wanna make a mid( 40ish) or a high game
     
  5. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    i might want to do low lvl dueling, but i ahve no specific dueling character. i might try my patt'ed fishy, are they any good?
     
  6. LprMan

    LprMan IncGamers Member

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    Hey, I have a lvl 55 spearbarb and I would like to try some pvp, of course against chars who are about as high lvl

    But I can't host :(

    edit:

    @ farting_bob

    I would really like to duel your fishy with my spearbarb, that must be interesting :D
     
  7. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    well I have a lvl 59 Pally that ill be willing to duel with...game up

    40-70 give or take.

    68.7.1.66
     
  8. Derrick1001

    Derrick1001 IncGamers Member

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    Why is Holy Bolt Banned? :scratch:

    /noob question
     
  9. pharaoh

    pharaoh IncGamers Member

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    Well, if you were to duel with a skellymancer, you'd need to have totally different rules than Select proposes for his duels, as this is one of the builds the rules hurt the most. Imagine, a skellymancer using Amp and Decrepify (whups, Decrepify is banned) to power his minions (whups, a necro can't summon anything except a golem in town, so make that minion, no plural) in a duel. You probably wouldn't do very well at all.

    I know Select was trying to be fair, but the fact is, most of the rules he listed sound rather unfair to me. Certain builds rely on skills like Decrepify, Bone Prison, and Holy Freeze as critical skills, and these rules render those builds completely unplayable. Likewise, builds that rely on 'hit slows target' (and remember that it's heavily nerfed in PvP anyways; it will never slow more than 50%) or poison damage get the shaft, whereas other builds can stack on massive leech and physical damage, and make 'fair' one-hit-killer machines.

    As an example, my bonemancer would be heavily hampered by these rules. In PvM, against single tough monsters (like act bosses), my standard approach is to spam Bone Prison, and then fire off Spirits, and in PvP, I'd likely use a similar approach against melee characters. While it could be argued that using Bone Prison is 'cheap', there are numerous ways to counter it (Teleport, Leap/Leap Attack, Whirlwind, Dragon Flight, break it down, return the favor by using Prison on the offending necro, and then Spirit him, etc). If the rules prohibiting the use of item charges and Teleporting by non-sorcies wasn't there, Teleport would be an option to every player. While Enigma is very hard to obtain, it is not at all hard to get an item with charges of Teleport.

    Again, I'm not trying to put down Select; I know he had the right intent. Banning hacked/bugged/duped items, for one, is something I agree with entirely, but banning the use of legitimate items and skills is something I don't agree with, in most cases. About the only time I would support those restrictions is when they concerned a bug, ie Marrowwalk+bonemancer, but these would have to be extended to all cases of the bug in question, not just singling out one example. After all, why should Marrowwalk be banned for a necro, while allowing Trang's gear on a fire sorcy, or Carrion Wind on a druid?
     
  10. Boddah_khan

    Boddah_khan IncGamers Member

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    Cleric paladins being used the heal other in team games. Holy bolts heal capacity would take all the fun out of team duel games. It really only applies to B.net, but it's in our rules just to make sure it never happens. Cheers!
     
  11. pharaoh

    pharaoh IncGamers Member

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    I believe it is banned because with the right synergies, it can actually be very useful for healing party members in team duels. However, I see no problem with this- if gear with leech, +life/kill, and +mana/kill is allowed, why not Holy Bolt?

    Ahh, I have to be careful. I already went off on a bit of a rant in a previous post, so I should stop myself now. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Toa3t

    Toa3t IncGamers Member

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    Heh, Select posted those rules with mind to characters created purposely for PvP. While SP doesn't really have the same dueling atmosphere as Bnet, there still are a few devoted players.. I had a Bowazon and Sorceress in 1.09, and am planning a new Bowie for 1.10. Regards to specific rules:

    Bone Prison is banned because Necros are already horribly, horribly overpowered. BSpirit seeks, can't be blocked, can't be resisted, and is often invisible. Without much effort at all, the damage can be 3k.. with a 1/4 PvP penalty, it still does 750 a shot, enough to kill 99% of all characters in three hits. If they're allowed to use BP as well, g'luck having a duel last for more than half a minute, especially if the opponent is an Amazon, Druid, Paladin, or Assassin. Decrep, same reason behind.

    As for the limit on poison from non-skills, it's easy to get, well, a bucketload of it from charms, then you only need to hit the opponent once and run around like a wuss for the rest of the match. This can be countered by items like Death's Hand, but still yeah :D

    Again, back to Necros, Marrowalk is banned because they're so damn powerful to begin with. A Rabid Druid with Carrion Wind can be decent, but not enough to be "uber leet". As for Sorceresses with Trang's, the +skills that isn't class-specific has a cap of +3 for the character who actually possess that skill. For example, the +18 Fire Ball partial bonus would be capped at +3 for a Sorc, and +6 BO from Call to Arms would lower to +3 on a Barb.

    Some of the rules may seem unfair, but "fair" is really defined totally differently between PvP and PvM.

    -Kevin

    (note: from what it sounds like, a lot of guys have interest in duels with their regular PvM characters, like Spearbarbs and Fishymancers. One thing to think about is to make two separate duel threads, one for dedicated PvP, and one for guys who want to have fun and more or less get their feet wet. For the latter, the only rules that would only truly be needed would be no KB/slow/bugged items, at least until somebody comes and smashes everybody with 10k Hammer damage from their Pit runner, or something :))
     
  13. 6stringspanky

    6stringspanky IncGamers Member

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    well leech doesn't work that i know of im 1.10 in pvp......maybe though....it's been a while
     
  14. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    first off, even on b.net bone prison is considered BM, accept for in pubbies, HF is considered BM, accept for in pubbies, Pot chugging is considered BM, accept for in pubbies(what im saying is We are trying to keep the duels from turning out like pubbies where one or two classes of the super rich domminate because theres no real rules).

    poison from non skills has been coverd previously.

    Necromancers, the majority being bonemancers, will have no problem taking out most everything withough prison...they still have full use of bone wall and still can do about 1k dmg a hit with relativly decent gear. believe me they are at no disadvantage. especially when their bone armor soaks up around 1000 dmg.

    Ive dueled a lot with single player and these rules dont hinder anyone...we even let somethings slide cause in game we are pretty relaxed.

    if enigma where aloud, pretty much every defensive build would never be touched. trappers would just TP away and stun lock you into oblivion. WW barbs would have a huge advantage over sorces and zons. Wind druids and necromancers would also become way overpowerd. Now if you have enigma, feel free to wear it. and if you really want to use it, ask everyone in game and let them decide, but always consider using the teleport on it banned untill everyone in your game decides its ok. I myself use a WW assassin which is the same concept as enigma but its relegated to assassins only, if someone doesnt like me using WW Ill switch to my kicker and thats it. And if there is a tournament I couldn't use my WW assassin cause these rules will stand firmly then in game and out.


    All in all, I dont want SP PvP to turn out like B.net pubby duels. they just stop being fun if everyone has teleport and 4 auras on at once. it gets rediculous. these rules keep the builds within a reasonable limit. you can still do some pretty insain dmg and be hard to beat, but youll never be completely over powerd. well bone necros are still rough heh. I don't feel these rules ask too much of anyone and I know that if you do make a PvP character youll have fun even with these rules in mind.

    and a side note about leach...It does almost nothing now, youll maybe get 20hp back per hit, and thats with A LOT of leach.


    (note: from what it sounds like, a lot of guys have interest in duels with their regular PvM characters, like Spearbarbs and Fishymancers. One thing to think about is to make two separate duel threads, one for dedicated PvP, and one for guys who want to have fun and more or less get their feet wet. For the latter, the only rules that would only truly be needed would be no KB/slow/bugged items, at least until somebody comes and smashes everybody with 10k Hammer damage from their Pit runner, or something )


    this is a very good Idea. a General Dueling thread would be a good idea. Knockback i think would be acceptable there though, cause its kinda hard to find a good bow without knock back on it. i guess that way you can have your pubby style duels if you dont agree with this thread or just dont feel like going up against pure PvP built characters.:p...it could work.

    Please excuse my bad grammer and spelling. . . :drool:
     
  15. pharaoh

    pharaoh IncGamers Member

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    It seeks, but it moves very slowly- even more so when someone uses Slow Missiles on it. I'm not sure about the block thing, but if it can't be blocked, odds are that is a bug, and we should whine to Bliz to fix it, along with the FE and Charge bugs. And, as I mentioned in my other post, were it not for the prohibitions in place, any class could easily escape the Prison. As for it being invisible, I've never seen that, myself, but if true, that is most certainly a bug.

    Besides, you are talking about one specific build (pure bonemancer) against certain other specific builds. You will always be able to point out how Build X will usually prevail over Build Y. For example, a fast-casting Frozen Orb sorceress with Energy Shield and lots of mana would have the edge against the aforementioned bonemancer. She couldn't be trapped by the Prison (with Teleport), and with high Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery, good luck having the necro survive long against her. Remember that the necro will run out of mana a lot sooner than the sorc, especially if she has high Warmth.

    Does this mean we should ban Teleport, Frozen Orb, Cold Mastery, and Warmth for sorceresses? After all, if these skills allow a sorcy to take down the "already horribly, horribly overpowered" necro, that surely means that they make the sorcy even more "horribly, horribly overpowered", right? /sarcasm

    And what about bowazons? Guided Arrow seeks, travels a lot faster than Bone Spirit, costs a lot less mana (even to the point of costing zero mana with enough +skills), can support life/mana leech, can have elemental and poison damage stacked on (and plenty of it, too- just look at Buriza or Hellrack), and also stacks with special mods like Crushing Blow, Open Wounds, Deadly Strike, and Freezes Target (though these are limited in PvP like most other things). With the Guided+Pierce bug fixed, they're not quite the juggernauts they were in 1.09, but they are certainly no slouches in PvP. With a fast bow and some IAS (which, by the way, is a much more common mod than FCR), she will snap off arrows faster than our necro friend will cast Spirits.

    Something that still puzzles me, to this day, is why some people value poison so much in PvP. I mean, you might be able to load up on it with charms or other gear, but you can also load up on elemental damage, which is generally better, as it stacks, as well as (in the case of cold damage) adding a secondary effect. Picture I have a character who attacks fast (as virtually every non-caster type will try to do), say a zeal paly, for example. I'd much rather have 500 elemental damage than 1000 poison, because with the stacking, I'd do 2500 with five zeal hits, whereas the poison would do a little over 1000, depending how fast it worked. To me, poison only becomes more useful than elemental damage in three cases. First is when you're fighting a mob with multiattack skills (zeal, fend, fury, etc), as the poison will be spread out, thus adding 1000 damage to each target rather than 500 (using my zeal paly example), assuming the poison runs its course before you hit the poisoned monster again. Second is when it is your only viable means of dealing damage, because the target is immune and/or highly resistant to other damage types you have at your disposal. Third is when you're a melee character, and you want to put some distance between yourself and your target before it dies (Stygian Dolls and CE/FE bosses come to mind). Only the second case applies to PvP, and then only partially- absorb notwithstanding, elemental damage should be just as effective as poison, and both are less effective than physical, with the 50% cap on percent-based PDR.

    Yeah, I know about oskills being capped at +3 on the class that 'owns' the skill, so perhaps Trang's wasn't the best example. Come to think of it, it was flat-out wrong, since +skills aren't part of the synergy bug, as far as I know; only charged items are. A better example might be a non-sorc using Trang's gear and, oh, say Moonfall. My point was that singling out one class wasn't fair. That's basically saying "Hey necro, you can't exploit this bug, but we'll let anyone else exploit it if they want." Besides, just because someone plays a necro doesn't make them a bonemancer- maybe a mojomancer wants a high-level BP to deal with act bosses, but doesn't want to waste a bunch of skill points. Hell, even bonemancers don't automatically make use of that bug. I have a bonemancer, and I also have Marrowwalk, and I wouldn't take advantage of it. I did it the honest way, and sunk 20 points in Bone Prison (also in Bone Wall, Bone Spear, Bone Spirit, and I'm working on Teeth). I'd much rather do it like that, and have the boots for use on another char (the Life Tap charges are very handy, if you ask me).

    Yeah, I know- and believe it or not, my bonemancer was not designed with dueling in mind at all. While I might use him were I to duel, he was built for PvM and MF.

    Still, even were I to concede on the BP issue (which I don't; I still maintain it's easy enough to escape, if you remember "it might be used against me" when you build your character), and the poison issue (again, I don't), that leaves many other issues. Why no Holy Freeze? Why no knockback from gear, while allowing skills like Charge and Smite, which can very easily put an opponent into hit recovery lock? Why no Holy Bolt paladins in party duels, especially considering if the other side doesn't like it, killing the offending paladin is a perfectly viable solution? Why no "hit slows target" while allowing cold damage (not everyone has CBR gear on every char, especially lower-level ones)? Why allow Open Wounds if poison is restricted, considering how (to the best of my knowledge) it cannot be resisted, or its duration cut down, while poison can be reduced in both ways?

    These are just my thoughts, though. When I saw Select's other post where he listed these same rules, I thought to myself that some of them didn't really make sense to me, but I didn't say anything, because I don't duel very often. Then today, when I saw Bob's post about a fishymancer in a duel, I kind of chuckled to myself because of the irony- sure, you can play a skellymancer, as long as you don't use any skeletons, heh- and next thing you know, I went off on a rant. Now I've done it again.

    Looks like people weren't lying about Durf; I blame him for my recent rants. :)

    Having separate threads for the 'pro' and 'amateur' duelers is a very good idea, though the trick then becomes how to determine who belongs in which. My bonemancer, for example, would likely do very well in the 'amateur' group, so might not belong there, but as he wasn't built for dueling, and I don't have a lot of experience with it, I'm not sure he'd belong in the 'pro' group, either.
     
  16. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    ok, good arguments all around. theres obviously two very different view points here. Myself and a few others(liquid_evil) just want to get a PvP community goin. We both feel that, yeah, maybe we put up too many rules, but we both believe in limiting Bad mannered items/skills. we are revising the rules...probably taking out a few things. adding something different, not totaly sure yet. either way look for new, possibly less rules soon. but I can tell you that Decrip and enigma teleporting, Holy freeze, KB(in most cases) and Slows target will most likely be off limits still.
     
  17. pharaoh

    pharaoh IncGamers Member

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    Potion chugging I agree with, unless people agree potions are okay. But let's not judge by b.net standards, shall we? :)

    Heh, what about Bob's fishymancer?

    Why wouldn't you be able to use her? You should know the rules don't prohibit oskills or WW; after all, you wrote them. :)

    Hmm. Well as I said, I haven't dueled much, and virtually not at all since the patch. Still, I would suspect Life Tap still works, and with Dracul's Grasp, it's an option available to all melee characters.

    Heh, a good bow without knockback? There's plenty of them; bows without knockback outnumber those with knockback by far.

    But why is knockback banned in the first place? It's not like you get multiple-hitting piercing guided arrows knocking you around like a pinball anymore; Bliz finally acknowledged guided+pierce was a bug, and fixed it like they ought to have done ages ago.

    Ahh, don't worry about it. We're not grading this as a term paper, you know. :)
     
  18. Select

    Select IncGamers Member

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    I talked about my WW assassin because some people see it in the same light as using the tele off enigma, thats all.

    I dont know much about draculs grasp cause i havent used them personally. i hear that they let you leach a little more, but im under the impression that the leach they give still isnt anything special in pvp.

    you may be right about the bows.


    Like I said, myself and others just want to get a PvP community going. So we are tonning down the rules in order to keep it simple yet keep it from being a BM festival. these are the rules as of right now, but they still are subject to change in the next day or so. I feel these are a bit more reasonable.

    GENERAL RULES
    -No use of any bugged, hacked, or duped items.
    -Please try to be polite.
    -No slow items are allowed for Physical Attackers. (Cleglaws, Blackhorns, etc)
    -Items that give Knockback (KB) are limited to ranged characters. Skills that have KB such as charge, smite, leap attack are OK to use.
    -No potions, wells, shrines, mercenaries.
    –Necromancers may use Minions, but no more than 20.
    -Only 1 Absorb item per Elemental Damage. You can not use 2 lightsabres or 2 Ravenfrosts.
    -Poison Damage is limited to 200 poison damage from items per player. Characters are not bound by the 200 rule when skills are involved (Venom, Poison nova) (For VLLD and LLD keep to poison to none, or below 50)
    -You cannot use the charges of a charged item. Items with % chance to cast amplify damage or iron maiden are not allowed.
    -No .08 vita items. This includes Arkaines Valor, Harlequin Crest Shako, Baranars Star, and Gerkes Sanctuary.
    -Items that grant auras may be used with the exception of Holy Freeze
    -Marrowalk boots equipped on Necromancers is banned if they are exploiting the Prison bug. (unless consent to use them is given in game unanimously).
    - Please, no use of decrepify
    -I believe these should be guidelines as in, some exceptions can be made in game as long as it’s a unanimous decision between the duelers. It is my experience that duel games go much smoother if the duelers can make decisions in game when a problem arises (with the rules in mind as a basis). So if no one has a problem with Marrowalks for example, then a necromancer should be able to use them in that particular gaming session.

    Holy freeze is banned.

    in summary.

    No more than 20 minions, charges, slow or holy freeze, and no more than 200 poison from non skills. and of course no duped/hacked/bugged items. and no more than 1 absorb per element.
     
  19. 6stringspanky

    6stringspanky IncGamers Member

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    someone needs to get ahold of the old 76legit rules from the old dueling clan.....they were as fair as fair can get. i dueled by them in a few tourney's......awesome rules
     
  20. Liquid_Evil

    Liquid_Evil IncGamers Member

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    Firstly pharaoh, thanks for the replies, it's nice to see where some people stand on dueling issues. For just fun non-tourney duels, the rules are just guidelines with the exception of pot chugging, shrines, mercs, slow gear, or hacked items. No one really cares (for the most part) if someone is using an "illegal" item or skill.

    The .09 SP PvP rules were loosely based on 76legit but now that 1.10 is here and 76 all but disbanded, a lot of our rules are similar to Clan Honors format.


    Some characters cause too much lag for the game to be fun. However, a skellimancer (with skeletons) did join a dueling game not too long ago and we had fun dueling it. Remember, unless its a tournament where people might exploit some rule for their char, everything is pretty lax.


    He didn't write them, a collection of PvP'ers modified the .09 rules to better suit the style of 1.10.


    That can be considered BM, but yeah, that is an option for melee in these lax games.

    With the original rules there were Faster Run Walk caps for all chars (for lag and fairness issues). Therefore, skills that affected FRW were banned.

    Apples and Oranges baby. Every smart char has CBR and the original rules were written for High lvl tournament characters.

    From the way you speak about Bone necros makes me believe you might be biased towards them. (no offense meant) Look out of the eyes of the other characters that have to duel them. No one will like getting caged and pelted, and it will take time to break out of the prison giving the necro added seconds to hurt you and not all character possess the moves needed to escape them quickly. With these 1.10 synergies the bone necro is arguably the best PvP character (and if I would have had my way, BS would have been banned, and this comes from a guy who played only necros in .09 pvp) Its unblockable (not a bug, magic damage such as hammers can also not be blocked) unresistable, homing, and all the rest of the crap toast said. GA and it are not even in the same league as far as I'm concerned. Those rules are in place to cut down on the power a bonemancer can obtain and are needed in my opinion. Characters that do well and are easy to make are the characters that will be used the most often. I don't want 1.10 to breed an army of PvP Necros, ideally I'd like it to be as fair as possible for every character and that is why some of these rules are in place.
     

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