Dual-yielding and whirlwind

[sirwhere]

Dual-yielding and whirlwind

I see barbarian-versus-caster (BvC) builds all use two weapons for whirling.

Well, I just checked the original threads at the Lurkerlounge where whirlwind was first decoded and I noticed dual-yielding does not make a hit check for both weapons. It only does so if there are TWO targets in range.

Since PvP is strictly a 1 target issue, you'll be doing the 1-handed damage all the time. In that case, you might as well be using a range 4 axe vs casters and axe/shield vs physical damage characters.

Has this changed with 1.10, or have there been other developments that I'm unaware of?

 

[Ce Olba]

This information you got here is very incorrect. If I'm correct, the way WW acts in PvP with dual-wielding is still a mystery. The only thing that is sure is that the first hit check always hits with only the primary weapon and (or so have I read from here) that it's always 4 frames. As for the others hitchecks, I haven't seen any 100% correct information. But it seems that after the first frame, it would be completedly randomized, so it's kinda like a lottery. Or so I would guess.

 

[sirwhere]

The info on Lurkerlounge for dual-yielding is as follows. It might be very incorrect, but it's the most convincing one I've seen. Actually, it's the ONLY one I've seen

Suppose we dual-yield two weapons, the primary weapon hitting last breakpoint (delay 4 frames), and the secondary weapon hitting the next-to-last breakpoint (delay 6 frames).

Frame 0:
Click WW

Frame 4:
Check for hit with weapon 1
Switch to weapon 2
Next hit check frame: +4 (frame 8)

Frame 8:
Check for hit with weapon 2
Switch to weapon 1
Check for hit with weapon 1 if there's a 2nd target in range
Next hit check frame: based on speed of weapon 1, +4 (frame 12)

Frame 12:
Check for hit with weapon 1
Switch weapons
Check for hit with weapon 2 if there's a 2nd target in range
Next hit check frame: based on speed of weapon 2, +6 (frame 18)

etc..

So here you see the main features of dual-yielding whirlwind:
- First hit is done with primary weapon ONLY
- Delays after frames 4 and 8 alternate. These delays are based on the weapon speed of both weapons, each at a time
- Dual-yielding does a hit check for each weapon provided there are TWO targets in range

Linkie:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=25873&st=45

So, if I read the conclusions of Ruvanal, Myrdinn and Hammerman correctly, this is how it works.

If this is in fact the way it works, it shows that dual-yielding in PvP is NOT as effective as you might think. You'd be better off using a 2-hander for extra damage and range. Unless, of course, you dual-yield to use the bonuses of the second weapon (+2 skills, resists, +stats, etc).

 

[myrdinn]

update info (1.11b PAtch)

Hi,
Whirlwind was first "decoded" long time before this LurkerLounge topic , but it does not matter.

The info quoted here are patch 1.09 mechanism
WW have been modified in the last 2/3 patchs.

Patch 1.10
Even if you have only one target, you can hit this target Twice.

Patch 1.11
WW was done on a 4 frames basis. Now the finishing function is called every frame so "6 frames breakpoint" is really a 6 frames breakpoint and not "4/8/4" anymore.

Now Which hand is used to compute IAS in PVP ???
First there are still 2 "FREE IAS" hits
The first one only attacks with the primary weapon
The second one attacks with the secondary and then the primary weapon.
Then the following hits use weapon IAS of the "current hand"

The answer to the question depend on how far you are from the target when you start whirlwind

If you are close enough to reach your target at the first free hit then the IAS used is the one of your secondary weapon as long as the target can be reached.
The following happens
Frame 4
FreeIAS hit with Primary weapon
swap current weapon

Frame 8
Free IAS hit with secondary weapon.
Secondary weapon is used to compute "the NExt time you should hit"
Swap current weapon
attack with primary weapon
Swap current Weapon

Frame X "the next time you should hit" Frame computed right before.
attack with secondary weapon.
Secondary weapon is used to compute "the NExt time you should hit"
Swap current weapon
Attack with primary weapon
Swap current Weapon

And so on ...

Ifyou reach the target at the second FREE IAS hit.
This is the same, the secondary weapon is always used.

If you reach the target at your third attacks then this is the primary weapon that is used for IAS
Frame 4
First free IAS hit but no target
swap current weapon
Frame 8
Second Free IAS hit but no target
Secondary weapon is used to compute "the NExt time you should hit"
swap weapon

Frame X (the one compute right before and the one you reach your target)
Attack with primary weapon
primary weapon is used to compute "the NExt time you should hit"
swap weapon
Atack with secondary weapon
swap weapon

And so On

So there is nothing related to any kind of Lottery

There is something that is still an hypothesis here since I don't look at the 1.11b's WW function in detail. I'm not sure that the 2 first free IAS attacks are still at 4 and 8th frame.

 

[nickedoff]

It's _wielding_ you realise :|
They aren't making a cake =D

 

[iliketoplaydiabloalot]

If you read on arreat summit, it says that a dual yielding barb hits 50% more then a single weapon. The weapon on the right hand is the primary and the one on the left hand acts as the secondary weapon, tho you dont get its full potential as it does hit at 6 frames as apposed to 4 for the primary one. This of course if u hit the breakpoints with the weapon speeds.

 

[RTB]

And the AS is horribly outdated on that one. The info by Myrdinn has been around since some time after the release of 1.10.

Oh btw, Myrdinn, you mentioned once that since 1.11 the actionflags for Whirlwind sequence are set for all frames, but that's not the case in 1.11b d2common.dll. They're still only set on frame 4 and 8.

 

[myrdinn]

Yes RTB I have seen your topic (nice job btw) and this is something I must confirm next time I will debug WW
I should not use the terminology "Action Frame" when I speak of the 1 frame because this is not exactly the same mechanism

It Seems that this action frames are used for the 2 first free IAS hits, then the Whirlwind function do not use it anymore and check every frame if you have reached the "Next frame you should attack".
I could be mistaken, this is something that is still under debugging

 

[Ce Olba]

So simply, what you're saying is that if both the weapons hit the 4 frames breakpoint, on the first 4th, the primary will attack, and on any following frames, both will?

 

[myrdinn]

So simply, what you're saying is that if both the weapons hit the 4 frames breakpoint, on the first 4th, the primary will attack, and on any following frames, both will?

No sorry if I'm not clear.

When I say Frame 4 and Frame 8, it means 4 and 8 frames after you have clicked, this is not the speed of your weapons.

Whatever are the IAS of your weapons you always attack (this is the 2 Free IAS attacks) once at Frame 4 and twice (if you have 2 weapons)at frame 8 (with frame 0 = the frame when you click).

Then the IAS of the current Weapon set the next frame you should attack.
If both weapon reach the 4 frames Breakpoint you should attack at frame 12 /16 /20 ...

if you have target you attack twice (one for each weapon) you swap current weapon twice. So the current weapon stay the same
If you don't have target you swap the current weapon (so IAS too).

Until you reach your target you swap current weapon.
Then you reach your target current weapon do not change, it means that this is always the same weapon IAS that is used

 

[sirwhere]

Hum.. I see. It wasn't very clear but I think I know what's going on. Interesting to see dual-weilding whirlwind changed in patches 1.10 and 1.11. I wasn't aware of that.

So, conclusions seem to be:

- Free hits at frames 4 and 8 are still there.

- Primary weapon hits at frame 4, both weapons hit at subsequent frames, provided you have target.

- You don't need two targets to be in range to get two hits. One is enough, and it gets hit twice.

- After frame 4/8, weapon IAS is used to calculate next hit-check frame. Calculation will alternate between left/right weapon if you're "hitting air", or stick to one of the weapons if your hitting stuff.

This right, or have I misread it?

By the way, myrdinn, does usual 1-weapon whirlwind still works as normal, i.e. with 1-handed breaks at -10/-35 and 2-handed breaks at -10/-30/-60?

 

[myrdinn]

Your conclusion is absolutely right

1-handed WW still works as normal. Since WW finishing function seems to be called every frame the 6 and 10 frame breakpoint should be affected.

I know the formula not the conventional notation
If you make a "breakpoint table" with value increased 5 by 5 you should find

WSM-IAS Fpsbetweenattack BaseFrame = 16 / AnimRate = 256
20 12
15 10
10 8
5 8
0 8
-5 8
-10 6
-15 6
-20 6
-25 6
-30 6
-35 4
-40 4
-45 4
-50 4
-55 4
-60 4
-65 4
-70 4

Yes -10/-35

WSM-IAS Fpsbetweenattack baseFrame = 19 / AnimRate = 256
20 14
15 12
10 12
5 12
0 10
-5 10
-10 8
-15 8
-20 8
-25 8
-30 6
-35 6
-40 6
-45 6
-50 6
-55 6
-60 4
-65 4
-70 4

Yes -10/-30/-60

The "true" breakpoints are not rounded

 

[sirwhere]

Great! It's cleared up now. If one thinks of it, it makes sense dual-wielding does just about the same damage as a 2-handed weapon.

Not that this game makes much sense, but ok

 

[Romper Stomper]

dual-wielding does just about the same damage as a 2-handed weapon.

Actually quite a bit more if you consider setups like grief + beast where the fanat and str applies to both, not to mention the fact that you are dealing more attacks which makes it more likely to score at least ONE hit (which often is a good outcome).

 

[sirwhere]

myrdinn, could you post the true breakpoints? As in, not rounded?

R.Stomper: yes, combos with grief outstrip 2-handers in total damage.

 

[myrdinn]

Breakpoints are

Baseframe = 16 Animrate=256
-7 --> 6 Frames
-34 --> 4 frames


Baseframe = 19 Animrate=256
+4 --> 10 Frames
-6 --> 8 frames
-27 --> 6 Frames
-59 --> 4 Frames

 

[sirwhere]

cheers. thanks for the data.