Drop Rates

Sessily

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

If the drop rates go up much, the whole trading economy is shot.

If anyone can find any item they want without trading the economy suffers which isnt good for anyone.
The whole economy is based on duped items & runes that aren't even found anyway, I highly doubt anything will change UNLESS drop rates are increased to a REASONABLE level - which doesn't mean they should rain from the sky - so that duping is not so "necessary".



 

Smips

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Hardcore gamers like to mf 165156154564 hours, casual gamers like to get items without spending that 16515615456 hours. U cant compare, it doesnt make sense. Increasing droprates and u lose hardcore gamers, decrease/maintain the current rate and u lose casual gamers.

People who like to mf will argue that it feels very good to have found "XXX" item after 51215641 runs, and that increasing the drop rate will screw up that good feeling. Why do they say that? Simple, because increasing the drop rate will mean that ur 20000 weeks of mf for a griff doesnt seem very accomplished anymore, when some noob gets it on his first day of play(Just watch as all these hardcore mfer disagree with me. Simple mental defense).
Is there something wrong with people liking to MF a lot in D2? I see no problem with doing that. People are drawn to D2 for different reasons; some just like playing through the game, some like searching for the rarest items, some like trying new and unique builds, ect. I don't think anyone can say that any of these reasons for playing the game and any less significant than the other.

Also, what's wrong with getting satisfaction out of find a really rare item? If that's what you like to do most and you have fun doing so, what's the problem? Lowering the drop rates in D3 would only take away from this satisfaction because it would make the part of the game hardcore MFers like the most too easy. Imagine if D3 were released and it was absurdly easy. It would get old fast for every play that likes playing through with different or unusual builds. I guess the point I'm getting at here is that just because you don't really like playing the game to MF doesn't mean you should criticize people who do. Any hardcore MFer who disagrees with you isn't using "simple mental defense," they're defending the aspect of the game they enjoy most.


Anyways, about how I feel about the drop rates for D3...I don't think there was anything too wrong with the drops in D2. Some items were WAY to rare IMO though. Also, the diminishing returns on MF were pretty rediculous. I mean, 500 MF mean you have a 166% better change of an item dropping as a unique? That's pretty harsh. Also, I think high runes were a bit too rare...People who play SP can hardly even imagine finding high runes.


 

Nimbostratus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Why is it that any time somebody mentions making things less rare, everybody acts like the guy said it should rain zods? The great items should stay hard to find, but some of them really do need to come down to realistic (read: better than one in six million) odds.

I think all they really have to do is give magic and rare items better affixes and add limits on the low level ones. There are a lot of key stats that are either severely limited or completely unavailable on magics and rares in D2. And think about the rare weapons in D2- how many times have you found something in Act 5 hell that wouldn't even be passable in Act 5 normal because of all the "+1-2 fire damage" type junk that still spawns that late in the game? I'm not saying everything should spawn with an automatic 400 ED, but come on, be realistic here.
 

uzurpator

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Well - the problem with the game is that the whole drop system is woefully inconsistent. If the MF drones want to run mephy for hours at a time - I say, let them, but maybe, just maybe blizzard could acknowledge that some regular people would like to find decent rare/magic items without frustration.

Example - BoTD, the 'uber lewt' weapon we all know and love is 400% ed, 2 skills, 60% ias and some other crap mods. This is cutting edge.

Rare wapons I can find are 70%, 5% life leech and +1 barb skill (not even elite item of course).

The rift between regular and godly items is too big. Honestly - elite rare items should be a regular hell drop, with at least 4 high level affixes (say ~250% ed, 40% ias, 2 socket, 2 barbskill, or whatevers)

The game would be perfectly balanced, item wise, if a regular player could wear only rare/magic/crafted items (no runewords or uniques) and be able to comfortably solo hell without harvesting for items on purpose.

And let the MF drones have they ridicolusly overpowered uniques and runewords to hunt for.
 

5zigen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Well - the problem with the game is that the whole drop system is woefully inconsistent. If the MF drones want to run mephy for hours at a time - I say, let them, but maybe, just maybe blizzard could acknowledge that some regular people would like to find decent rare/magic items without frustration.

Example - BoTD, the 'uber lewt' weapon we all know and love is 400% ed, 2 skills, 60% ias and some other crap mods. This is cutting edge.

Rare wapons I can find are 70%, 5% life leech and +1 barb skill (not even elite item of course).

The rift between regular and godly items is too big. Honestly - elite rare items should be a regular hell drop, with at least 4 high level affixes (say ~250% ed, 40% ias, 2 socket, 2 barbskill, or whatevers)

The game would be perfectly balanced, item wise, if a regular player could wear only rare/magic/crafted items (no runewords or uniques) and be able to comfortably solo hell without harvesting for items on purpose.

And let the MF drones have they ridicolusly overpowered uniques and runewords to hunt for.
This is a good point imo.

I think one of the great things about D1 was that the uniques were good, but they werent utterly dominant.

In D2 this changed where uniques were the way to play, magic items were essentially worthless (except for chipped CCBoH).

What really made it worse in D2 was that finding that High ED cruel weapon of Quickness was incredibly more difficult than simply finding and using a unique weapon.

I hope they rebalance it in D2 so that magic items will maybe have less stats or mods on them, but ultimately could be better than uniques. Perhaps giving them a higher ED cap, or allowing a way to socket items and giving magic weapons 3 sockets always and not allowing sockets on uniques. Or anything. Just something to increase the viability of non uniques would be awesome.

Aside from that the discrepancy between unique items was huge also, some of them being awesome and some being beyond worthless. This should have been addressed too.



 

sbn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

The whole economy is based on duped items & runes that aren't even found anyway, I highly doubt anything will change UNLESS drop rates are increased to a REASONABLE level - which doesn't mean they should rain from the sky - so that duping is not so "necessary".
This is exactly my thinking on the problem. If you create items that with such amazing stats, then make the item too rare for 95% to ever find, there will be duping. I try to take a very realistic approach to this subject. The problem for me starts with the source, which is Blizzard's design for these games. Making the 1.10 runewords was not necessarily the biggest problem, but having them use so many high runes that would simply never be found. The odds of finding one HR is extremely rare, the odds of two? Nobody could realistically look at ever making a Breath of the Dying, since it used Zod.

But the human nature, and let's keep in mind the audience here, is going to dictate that you simply can not hold out on a pedestal certain items and say "Ha! Good luck finding". A simplistic example would be holding out a piece of candy to a child and holding it just high enough out of his reach. Now when the other children have a piece of candy, obviously the desire for that child is going to not only increase, but other emotions such as jealousy will not arise. It is normal, and actually expected point, of games of this nature to continually improve your characters. When the game is so dependent upon items, and you have leveled high enough, then the desire becomes one thing only: items.

I think melee chars are most affected by the drops as they are. For example, it is very difficult to have a decent melee char start the ladder, as the items found are about 99% worthless. The health, defense, resists, life leech, mana leech, etc.. all effect the melee much more than say the Necromancer or Sorc. By creating almost a dependency on items rather than say skill or gameplay, the desire increases tenfold to obtain better items obviously. But when these items are not to be found, people WILL seek an alternative.

I have played this game now for 8 years, and in 8 years they were never able to address duping. Each stage there was always a response by the community. Worse yet the measures Blizzard enacted did not solve the problem, but now merely made it impossible to trade for certain items. While I know my view is somewhat controversial, I merely wish to just look at things objectively. As I see it, duping is not as much the problem as the drop rates, or ability to obtain items. While there certainly is a good percentage of players who wish to avoid things such as runewords made from HRs, I think the reality is most players simply do not realize what the true effect would be if there were no dupes (again I am not advocating, but merely discussing reality). Even at some of the "legit" trading forums you have many players that while not trading their Enigma there, certainly do have them.

In short, if they continue to have some godly-uber must have items that have drop rates similar to D2, and not "legitimate" means of obtaining, then you WILL have dupes and hacks for D3. That is a 110% guarantee. Over the years I have thought of numerous different proposals on this, but sadly none too popular :). I think the best method that at least received some positive responses was this:

The idea behind Diablo Clone was just plain idiotic. This did not solve the problem of SOJs duping, but merely enticed more TO dupe. But the idea of Ubers I believe was excellent. Although collecting keys is time consuming, the reality here is that you are almost guaranteed some keys after a set number of runs. Through time you have the keysets, and then begin to obtain the organs. After all that work you face 3 Ubers which drop one of the nicest items in the game, the Hellfire Torch. Aside from some rare duping of 20/20 Paladin torches, the reality here is that almost all torches are legit. Now think if they were instead dropped randomly at the same rate as Death's Fathom. Does anyone want to argue that torches would NOT be duped?

So now we have the SOH from our conquest of the Ubers. Why not have a vendor that would sell items such as an Enigma or Crown of Ages with enough SOHs amassed? You see the point here is that like the Ubers, you are guaranteed a victory of sorts. I do not necessarily think that all players are just lazy, many simply do not like to MF, and the pay offs can be so disappointing as to make it nothing more than a waste of time. Let's keep in mind also that the D2 community as it is now is one of hardcore D2 fans, but this will not constitute a good percentage when D3 comes out. Casual gamers who simply just want to play, level their character, etc.., well to them item dependency and drop rates are an extreme hindrance to enjoying this game at all. I would agree if someone says then maybe D3 is not the best game for them, but that does not change the fact that a very large number by this game simply to play it.

p.s. If you have read this far....I appreciate that you haven't fallen asleep :thumbup:



 

phool

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

If duping is possible, people will dupe. Adding dclone... removing enigma... Whatever; the incentive to dupe is equally high, short of making an item system as unvaried as GW's (even then... pp items like max r7s), the only thing you're changing is what people dupe.

There is however no need for duping to ever be possible in D3.
 

uzurpator

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Simply put - balancing super items by their rarity only increases the incentive to dupe. Forcing people to use those items due to nothing else giving the necessary 'oomph' just magnifies this tenfold.

I honestly think that the problem would be solved if the regular 'out of the mill' equipment found by everyone offered 80-90% of the stuff offered by the 'cutting edge'. Then 'cutting edge' can be hyper rare (anyone remember griswold's set in 1.09?)
 

ColdAsIce

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

This is exactly my thinking on the problem. If you create items that with such amazing stats, then make the item too rare for 95% to ever find, there will be duping. I try to take a very realistic approach to this subject. The problem for me starts with the source, which is Blizzard's design for these games. Making the 1.10 runewords was not necessarily the biggest problem, but having them use so many high runes that would simply never be found. The odds of finding one HR is extremely rare, the odds of two? Nobody could realistically look at ever making a Breath of the Dying, since it used Zod.
Hi I read your post great point. Although I will have to put my opinion in I guess. Yea, it sucks runes are so rare..Which makes it almost impossible for most people to create the godly runewords. Although, you may find an HR only once or twice, but then count the other hundreds of thousands of people who have the chance to find them too. They say about 3-4 people find some sort of high rune each day that passes on each server which is pretty accurate I guess for being an average number, but HRS were meant to be traded and were meant to be rarely found.

With that being said, most of those runewords were meant to be very very rare to the game.. I didn't think blizz would have expected these dupes that caught them off guard, in which, now everyone has an enigma. My point is the runewords people seek were not meant to be for everyone, I see it as the people who seek this power and work hard for it.. Working hard could be trading your way to acheive what you want, or even playing the game.

Some people would ask me "You mean if HRs werent duped, people would trade them? Are you serious? I dont think so" Actually from my years of experience, I remember people would find HRs and go trade them for godlies and such. People will and people will not.

- Dave
 

Nimbostratus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

While it sounds nice on paper to have things that are super rare, there really isn't anything positive about it. All it does is encourage duping and hacking, and really, what's the point of even having something in the game if only 1% of the population is ever going to have it? Also, keep in mind that single player does exist, so having items that can only realistically obtained through trading is nonsense. It's just a wasted effort to have something available to so few.

As for duping, keep in mind that duping itself isn't the main problem-it's the other effects that come from it being so overwhelming. Even if people do manage to dupe in D3, it won't be a huge problem it people can still legitimately find the item without too much difficulty (thus, traded items are still likely to be legitimate). As long as we can prevent the "99% of all <high runes, stone of jordan, etc.> are duped" scenario from happening, it's good. Yes, preventing duping in the first place would be ideal, but preventing it from being a problem when it happens would at least be a partial victory.
 
Re: Drop Rates

It would just be great if rares were good again.

It was always really fun in classic diablo2 identifying a new rare with giddy excitement that it might help your character, or possibly be something utterly astounding...:D

If they just got rid of all the useless modifiers, and added some new useful ones into the prefix/suffix pool it would really help alot. like, what if you could get 10-20% crushing blow as a weapon modifier, but it had like, a required level of 90?

It would also help if, as you leveled up higher, inferior magical modifiers became "locked out", preventing such silly occurrences as a level 90 character identifying a rare sword from pindleskin, only to see mods like 15% enhanced damage, 6% fire res, and 1-2 fire damage.

This could be done not only in diablo 3, but also diablo 2. making rares good again would really slow down the dupers, because good rares are well...really one-of-a-kind, which means they have to either find one themselves or trade for one...which itself would require something equally amazing.
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

what's the point of even having something in the game if only 1% of the population is ever going to have it? Also, keep in mind that single player does exist, so having items that can only realistically obtained through trading is nonsense. It's just a wasted effort to have something available to so few.
The purpose of rare and strong items is that the people will still have some goals to achieve after they finish the game. Someone brags about successfully completed (legit) BOTD-like item in D3? It just motivates you to play the game more.
And I don't see a reason why SP should be different from BNet in this case? 1) You can trade via TCP/IP (I hope TCP/IP will be still available for SP chars.) 2) Even if you don't trade, you can still hope to find the super rare items.



 

ColdAsIce

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

The purpose of rare and strong items is that the people will still have some goals to achieve after they finish the game. Someone brags about successfully completed (legit) BOTD-like item in D3? It just motivates you to play the game more.
And I don't see a reason why SP should be different from BNet in this case? 1) You can trade via TCP/IP (I hope TCP/IP will be still available for SP chars.) 2) Even if you don't trade, you can still hope to find the super rare items.
Which is pretty much what I have been saying all along since my first post on this thread.

My point of emphasis: Hard work pays off!


 

uzurpator

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Which is pretty much what I have been saying all along since my first post on this thread.

My point of emphasis: Hard work pays off!
Methinks it is established quite well, that all uber-rare uber-items achieve is botting and duping - with "unofficial" rules that, for instance, 40/15 jewels* are "legit" even though virtually all of them are duped.

*and pretty much:
any HR
160/60 armors
120/45 helms
most of high end runewords
+life skillers
3/20/20 sc's
and tonnes of other items



 

ColdAsIce

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Methinks it is established quite well, that all uber-rare uber-items achieve is botting and duping - with "unofficial" rules that, for instance, 40/15 jewels* are "legit" even though virtually all of them are duped.

*and pretty much:
any HR
160/60 armors
120/45 helms
most of high end runewords
+life skillers
3/20/20 sc's
and tonnes of other items
Yes, and they can be made/found legitly which is probrably the rarest thing about this game which makes it interesting.


 

Helmi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

I agree that the drop rates of D2 are horriffic and hope that D3 changes something about them.
I remember the time when I played D2 for the first time. Back then I was about 13 years old and bought the game merely cause I had some good memories about playing Diablo once on the computer of my cousin.
I rolled a Barbarian cause I kinda liked the idea of being a tough close range fighter. I leveled my way up and didn't follow any particular build -well ok I had one in mind but I never checked wether there's a guide about it or if it sucks- nonetheless I managed to kill Diablo without too much problems. But then all of the sudden a brickwall! BAMM!!!
My char totally sucked on nightmare and the game I was now playing could've been called Corpse Run.
At that point I would have done anything to get better gear or undo my skill choices but the only rare item I could find was for casters and the skills were unchangeable.
So I edited my character with some tool but after that it felt „wrong“ and I quit playing him.
It would have felt better if Blizzard would have given me an option to buy back skill points even if that would have meant to farm half an hour or more to buy back one single point.
Same about the items. If 30-40 or whatever countable number of boss runs would have been needed to find the item I wanted I would have done them. But ten up to hundred times as much because there is an 0.001% chance that it might drop? After all this is just a fekking game!
Furthermore I find it kinda awkward that Diablo or any of his brothers drops crappy unusable white stuff as if he's some kind of lower minion. Come on I've just slain one of the mightiest demons that ever walked the earth and all he was equipped with were some crappy common items which he might have bought from the nearest apprentice blacksmith? Hardly believable.
What I'm trying to say is that there must be something in the middle. I wan't to have the feeling that I achieved something when I finally got hold of an item but I definetly don't want to spent 2-3 weeks on farming to find some stuff that I can hardly use.
And I want the possibility to correct failures I made cause I wasn't sure about my character build or didn't foresee any future patch changes.
Don't forget that there are still people playing these games as singleplayer!
So in my humble opinion either make the rare items less über so that the complete game is doable with normal items that each SP char could get hold on or change something about the drop system.

Please forgive my spelling or grammar mistakes as english isn't my native language.

Cheers
Helmi
 

uzurpator

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

Yes, and they can be made/found legitly which is probrably the rarest thing about this game which makes it interesting.
Battlenet disagrees with you, that is why 'legit' duels are stocked full of those items. And honestly if I was a dueler (I ain't) intrested only in pvp then I'd trade for those things.

Frankly, I value my time more then I value money, so as a dueler I'd prolly buy the items online because you know - running a mephy for a year to get that shako(ber) is worth that 20$...
It is obvious I guess that online bought items are guaranteed dupes.

Clarification: I don't buy items online, I don't do that at all, currently I play mods which actually have respectable drop rates



 

JunkStory

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

It would just be great if rares were good again.

It was always really fun in classic diablo2 identifying a new rare with giddy excitement that it might help your character, or possibly be something utterly astounding...:D

If they just got rid of all the useless modifiers, and added some new useful ones into the prefix/suffix pool it would really help alot. like, what if you could get 10-20% crushing blow as a weapon modifier, but it had like, a required level of 90?

It would also help if, as you leveled up higher, inferior magical modifiers became "locked out", preventing such silly occurrences as a level 90 character identifying a rare sword from pindleskin, only to see mods like 15% enhanced damage, 6% fire res, and 1-2 fire damage.

This could be done not only in diablo 3, but also diablo 2. making rares good again would really slow down the dupers, because good rares are well...really one-of-a-kind, which means they have to either find one themselves or trade for one...which itself would require something equally amazing.
Strongly agreed.

In D2, unique items and runeword became the dominant items to use.. and 90% of all people on bnet would be using the exact same items. The whole idea of unique items was just totally pwned.


 

redrach

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

I've returned to Diablo 2 single player after years and this topic is highly relevant to me. The biggest problem I have is this:
Not all untwinked character classes can complete the game.
Pretty simple isn't it?
I'd say there's something seriously wrong with a game if you need certain items to complete Hell difficulty which are only dropped by Act Bosses in Hell difficulty. Of course, its not even that easy. You need to do hundreds, if not thousands, of Boss runs with your ****ty gear before you can equip your shiny loot.

As for what I think Blizzard could do to fix this:
- Increase chances of finding rares/uniques across the whole game. Make it so that Boss runs aren't the only viable method.
- Ensure that Bosses only drop rares or higher.
- Bosses in Normal/Nightmare/Hell should drop Normal/Normal & Exceptional/Exceptional & Elite items respectively, or possibly one level lower as well.
- Have at least one item dropped per Boss be class-specific. Makes it a whole lot easier to find the specific item your looking for.
- Of course, for the previous point to work, all classes have to be equally good at Boss running.
- Instead of making all uniques more common, just ensure that the most common ones are enough for a character to complete the game, while the rarer ones allow for faster killing, faster Boss runs, etc.
 

LawStudent

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Drop Rates

What the biggest problem (not touching the dupes/economy problem) is that they have made the truly godly items (with the elite uniques and amazing multiple-HR runewords) that if there werent a duping problem only a few people could attain, and then right under that is a DROP to rares and lower uniques. They raised monster difficulty, and raised the ceiling of items, but did not change the middle ground.

What LOD original got right (originally):
Uniques should be good, but not possibly the best items.
The MORE unique rare and magical items should rule the show.
I liked how magicals in the beginning of LoD had the best possible raw power stats, the Cruel modifier only being available on magic items but that is well balanced with rares with slightly less max damage but the possibility for high damage and other modifiers like leech.

I thought from how LOD was originally was high level rune words sucked compared to unqiues and even magical items, and thought that those needed to be upped. But, to this degree, where it invites dupes is impractical and offers no truly middle ground-viable items in hell.

Variety of items is great. That's what makes the diablo series so amazing.
Rarity is important! It gives people a goal to shoot for. It gives the hardcore gamers a hope to find perfection.
I don't mind if 1% of people have an item, it's about having viable items for the non-hardcore gamers.

What I think is optimal, is that for your standard run through the game, you achieve one amazing item (not necessarily, top notch, but very good), and some good items. What I think could help this in multiplayer is to split up drops better between party members, and not having a contest for the prize after the boss dies.
 
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