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Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Indecisive, May 2, 2008.

  1. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

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    Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    I'm interested to see what's most effective versus monsters (not PvP).

    It seems that the kicker has most advantages, but it's not obvious.

    Advantages for kicker:
    1) Speed. You can land 6 kicks in 22 frames (about 1 second).
    2) No need for claws, which means more versality.

    Disadvantage for kicker:
    1) No Deadly strike. I'm not quite sure about the enhanced damage, but I believe this does not transfer to the kicks either. At least not from weapons.

    Advantages for c/c assassin:
    1) It can deliver double damage (deadly strike and critical strike). Hence, more damage.
    2) Clawblock means less dexterity needed for block, and this also blocks elemental damage.
    3) Dualwielding claws just looks cooler.

    Disadvantage to c/c assassin:
    1) The IAS breakpoints are very high, which means you pretty much cannot use fade and use BoS, or have a merc with fanatism aura.
    1 b) If no fade, one must sacrifice alot of good equipment just because of the need for resistance.
    2) Slower attacks means that the c/c assassin does not have as many chances for different modifiers to happen as the kicker has, especially crushing blow.

    I must go to bed now, but please do fill in more if you can think of any. I believe the kicker is better than the c/c assassin after the points that I have made above. However the c/c assassin does deal more damage thanks to double damage from the skills Deadly Strike and Critical Strike.
     
  2. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    That's a pretty good summary for primary builds (although you can still play a c/c kicker too. :prop: ) The speed issue is really the biggest one. I think it's still a little easier to get better physical damage and leech with DClaw despite its speed disadvantage, but factor in Crushing Blow and elemental, and Talon comes out way ahead.

    I don't know if that's so much a knock on DClaw though, as it is Talon being pretty crazy good.

    Also DClaw is IMO a little nicer as a charge release, though Talon isn't bad there either.
     
  3. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    When it comes to releasing charges I prefer normal attack for PS and DC for FoF/CoT/BoI because these have the same speed.

    Isn't Talon bugged so that it can only release charges on the first kick?



     
  4. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    Yeah, since it gives the fastest potential charge-release cycles, Normal Attack can be extremely good. Me, I like the practical benefits of DC's AR bonus and more chances to release in a given amount of time.

    I don't think so. There is a vaguely similar sounding bug where it'll sometimes -retain- charges after an unsuccessful first kick, but it doesn't seem to affect releasing in any negative way.



     
  5. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    I don't quite understand why you say that normal attack would be faster when releasing phoenix strike charge ups? How is this calculated? DC have 10 fpa (5 fpa on each claw) when you reach max EIAS, while normal attacks is slower.
     
  6. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    That's right, but when you're comparing charge-releases, it's most common to look at how many releases you can get over a given period of time. The key thing is those extra 3 frames on DC are 3 more frames before you can start charging up again.

    Maximum for Normal Attack = 7 frames (and it's easier to get to max)
    Maximum for Dragon Claw = 10 frames, but you get two attacks.

    (Technically the fastest Normal Attack averages between 7 and 8 frames, but let's ignore that.)

    So example for charge-releasing, best case:
    Phoenix x2 + Normal Attack = 21 frames
    Phoenix x2 + Dragon Claw = 24 frames

    Normal Attack is 3 frames ahead. But then you multiply that by the total number of cycles. 2 cycles, it'd be 6 frames. 5 cycles, 15 frames.

    etc.

    So where you mainly care about releasing charges, Normal Attack is *in theory* faster than DC at doing so. It has a couple of other advantages too, if you're using something like Phoenix. It takes about the same IAS to get to max as a "Strike" charge-up, so it's more efficient from a gear standpoint. And it's much more similar to the "Strikes" in speed, so it's possibly easier to time releases.

    DC's big advantages from a release standpoint aren't theoretical speed, but rather the reliability it gets from having a big AR bonus and two chances to release in a fairly short amount of time. So, for example

    Phoenix x2 + Normal Attack (misses) + Normal Attack (hits) = 28 frames
    Phoenix x2 + Dragon Claw (with at least one swipe out of the two hitting) = 24 frames

    So it pulls ahead in that example, especially since its AR bonus makes it less likely to miss in the first place, especially with two chances. And a completely missed release is much worse for your timing than a few more frames to do it. (Also, while it's much, much harder to get to 10 frames with DC, it'll always be at least a little ahead of Normal Attack if you look at swipes per frame for a given amount of IAS.) Finally--and this comes back to what you were thinking--if you're just looking at the earliest possible single release, DC will get that release opportunity a tiny bit earlier, at 5 frames rather than 7.

    Then DC has damage and effect application benefits too, that go beyond mere charge-releasing.

    Anyway, I think that DC has more practical advantages overall, but there is something fun about trying to approach 2 meteors a second with Normal Attack. For example. :D

    This excessively wordy post has been brought to you by BeB. Wait, what was this thread about again? :prop:

    (edited for clarity and to clean up a mistake)



     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  7. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    Thanks for the explanation BIGeyedBUG. I see your point now, but still there is something that bugs :azn: me. If you use two claws, then won't you be using both when you use normal attacks, and thus have slower finishing attack than dragon claw? Otherwise I see what you mean, if you only use one claw.
     
  8. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    When dual wielding you will indeed use both claws with normal attack, but the difference is that with DC is that you can still make just make one swing. You are not forced to do two like with DC.
     
  9. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    Thanks Stephan.

    I've also compared the Dragon Tail with Dragon Talon, and see that the fastest DTail is 7 fpa. The IAS required for this is also pretty high though, like it is for Dragon Claw. The damage from Dragon Tail is alot higher than what you get from Dragon Talon, and Tiger Strike in combination with Dragon Tail, increases this even further. This is because the ED from Dtail works AFTER the total damage has been calculated. I calculated that at level 30 Dtail, you do 22165 damage with a level 30 Tiger Strike and Myrmideon boots. Without Tiger Strike, you get 4684 damage each kick (which is 12000 damage per second if you hit all the time). This is not so bad. The AR however is lower using Dtail than using DC or Dtalon.

    If you want to do more damage, then Dtail is superiour, followed by DC and lastly Dtalon. But when it comes to speed, Dtail is the slowest attack.

    • Dtail (7fpa, chargeup is also 7fpa) - slowest but does most damage of all 3 listed attacks
    • Dclaw (10 fpa, 5 fpa on each claw) - a little faster than Dtail, and more AR. Does more damage than Dtalon.
    • Dtalon (7 fpa first (or last?) kick, then 3 fpa for as much as 5-6 kicks). - fastest attack ! Also good AR!

    DC is faster than Dtail allowing more CB, and Dtalon is even faster. I'll not look at DFlight, because it's not very practical as a regular attack, but can come in handy from time to time.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2008
  10. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dragon type kicks vs Dragon claw

    What stephen said. :) The minimum time before you can start another attack is 7 frames for Normal Attack, 10 frames for DC. DC does get two claw swipes in that time, but it still takes 10 frames to finish.

    Probably what I should have typed the first time instead of all those :words: .
     

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