Do you believe in Prohibition?

BRKO

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Any prohibition is fruitless.
And it is not economy supporting at all.

There is the worlds biggest consumption of beer per head in my country.
The state earns insane money from it.
The state spends only a bit less money on treatment of alcohol victims.
Its very common that teenagers have a beer with their parents.
Alcohol is bad but its a firm part of our culture and its a huge business.

Anything that can be taxed is/will not be viewed as danger to society ergo its only matter of time before all that is known as drugs becomes legal.
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Stillman said:
You have to ask yourself, "can society afford more sick people?" This is a tough question, because most of us are not exposed to sick people in our day to day lives.
If you want to eliminate fiscal burdens on society, get rid of the old people. Medicaid and Social Security in one fell swoop. And I bet most of the sick people in those hospital beds were old too.

The "I would support it, but it's too expensive" argument doesn't quite cut it. Why would you support it? Presumably because you value individual autonomy and think that people should be able to do what they want if it doesn't hurt anyone else. But if you believe that, then you pretty much have to believe that people need to take responsibility for their mistakes too. You couldn't possibly believe that people should be able to do what they want and make others pay for it, could you?

As someone whose most deeply held and staunchly defended value is individual liberty, I recognize the Welfare State society's seemingly benevolent commitment to taking on our burdens of responsibility as a direct assault on those values. If society is going to pay for the consequences of your actions, its only natural that it decide what those actions can be. This is an attribute of the modern Welfare State, all its paper commitments to democracy and freedom notwithstanding. (And in case you were wondering, this is why a lot of libertarians think Communism, Socialism, Democratic Socialism, etc. are all basically the same thing: they're all headed in the same direction for the same reason).
 

PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Maybe you should have to be licensed to possess the drugs and tie that license to holding a job.
I just saw this, I live in an Islamic country and this is exactly what I have to have if I want to be able to legally drink alcohol. To get my license this is what I had to provide:

A letter from my employer saying they had "No Objection" to me drinking alcohol. (I also had to get a similar letter to get a driving license!)
A copy of my employment contract, stamped by my company.
A company "Salary Certificate" which the Government uses to decide how much money I can spend on booze each month.
A copy of my Tenancy agreement (sucks to Flat-Share)
A Copy of my Passport + Visa Page
4 Passport Photos
Fill out a form, where one of the first questions is my religion. (Muslims are not allowed to have a Drinks License)

Then I got my Red (every other Government card here is Gold) Alcohol License.

Without one you theoretically face an automatic jail term if caught drinking, but in practice you have to be making an *** of yourself.

They are a bit harsher on other drugs, where possession of *ANY* quantity has an automatic minimum 4 year jail term.

Moosashi said:
If you want to eliminate fiscal burdens on society, get rid of the old people.
I saw somewhere that on average something like 95% of your lifetime medical costs occur in the last two years of your life.


 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

If you want to eliminate fiscal burdens on society, get rid of the old people. Medicaid and Social Security in one fell swoop. And I bet most of the sick people in those hospital beds were old too.
In your case there's a far easier alternative: cut defense and deficit funding. You pay about as much in interest on your mind-boggling debt as you do on health care.



 

BobCox2

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

1920 + 75 = 1995

You suck at math and using the phrase 'end of' in a sentence.
December 5, 2008, Marks 75th Anniversary of Prohibition Repeal
as in the End of Prohibition.
Sorry If you missed that from the context, no one else seemed to.


 

stillman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Moosashi, I don't quite follow some of your terms since I am not into politics, laws, etc.
But to answer:
'You couldn't possibly believe that people should be able to do what they want and make others pay for it, could you?'
I'll say no. It's really frustrating watching sick people complaining about the nurses who are doing such a good job, and soaking up free drugs and care (in Canada) all because they wanted to smoke/drink/eat excessively.

I'm basiacally still on the fence about the whole issue. As I noted, I'd be fine with legalization of marijuana IF they make a ban on tobacco products. We would save billions on hospital costs. Of course, how do you handle the millions of people breaking the law, and smuggling cigarettes just like the rum runners durring liquor prohibition? Well, idk. Take a chunk of all that wealth we're saving from fewer patients and give it to the police to fight the smugglers. I'm not saying it would work, but it might help. Give people a 2 year warning to quit smoking before the law takes effect, give out free quit-smoking therapies, compensate tobacco growers to fund other things they could start growing, etc.

As for getting rid of old people, it's kind of too late for that. The development of geriatric drugs has reached a level of solid perfection. We can now take people who are useless at the age of 70 and keep them useless for another 35 years. Idk what drug makers were thinking. It's not like the 99 year old vampires are enjoying a high quality of life. They are, IMO, being tortured by being kept alive for decades after their natural lives have actually ended.

They can't see properly, so they can't read or watch anything, they lose awareness of their surroundings, they lose cognitive abilities, they can barely speak, and they certainly can't move. They also can't hear or even breath well enough on their own sometimes. They are basically dead, but with drugs keeping their vitals going. And there are nurses making $30 an hour to keep them going.

Anyway, legalizing weed would just add more patients, so that's why I say they have to remove a major health risk before adding another.
 

Sokar Rostau

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

You're making a common assumption for which there is no evidence.

The reason that Prohibition failed was simple. It did not stop people from drinking alcohol. Lifting Prohibition did not cause a sudden rise in the number of alcoholics (although it could be argued that the proportion of alcoholics in the population had dwindled, this was because of increased sanitation in the water supply over the previous 25 years preventing people from becoming alcoholics in the first place). There was also no significant change in the number of teetotalers. Some people drank alcohol, some people didn't and Prohibition didn't change this - those that wanted to drink still could, they just had to break the law to do so.

The assumption you are making is that if cannabis were to be legalised tomorrow, there would be a massive increase in it's consumption which would lead to an equally massive rise in health problems down the track (as well as there suddenly being millions of people turning up to work stoned). The reality is that any rise in users would be minimal and that 50 years from now you would be treating 50 patients per year for cannabis related medical conditions whether it is legal or not.

Another thing to consider is that, for children, it is often easier to obtain illicit drugs than it is to purchase alcohol or tobacco, add to this the fact that pot is, in Australia at least, much cheaper than alcohol and you can see that cannabis is more attractive to a teen than alcohol, meaning more teens will at least try it.

One of the effects of alcohol is that the more you drink, in one session, the more you want to continue drinking. Conversely, the more pot you smoke in a session the less likely you are to continue smoking that night - pot is a self regulating drug in that the more intoxicated you become the less you consume.

Another thing to consider, since it's been touched upon already, is the effects of cannabis, and other drugs, on the overall economy. When someone smokes a cigarette, they smoke a cigarette and that's it, aside from the taxes paid when you purchased your smokes there is no more impact on the economy. When someone drinks alcohol they will eventually buy a packet of chips, or some other snack, to go with it, and probably a pizza, kebab or burger on the way home (in a taxi if they're responsible). When a smoker drinks alcohol they invariably smoke more, in fact there are people that do not smoke cigarettes at all unless they are drinking alcohol. So, when a smoker drinks alcohol they add the purchase of the alcohol and their cigarettes and a snack or meal into the economy. Now, I'm not saying this to be funny, but when you are stoned you get the munchies. It is quite common for someone to spend $25 on some pot, smoke it, and then go out and spendanother $25 on food. In fact, I have seen, and probably done so myself, people spend as much as four times more money on munchies than they did on the cannabis in the first place.

As already noted, alcohol is directly responsible for violence, injury and death on an almost daily basis. Again I'm not being funny here, all a few bongs or joints causes is an urge to eat chocolate and fall asleep giggling at the TV.

Legalisation also has another effect. The State no longer has to pay for the trial and imprisonment of people incarcerated for having a bong and can divert it's resources to more important things like catching murderers and kiddy-fiddlers.
 

stillman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

^ I can agree with a lot of that...but not the part about the substance helping the ecconomy via purchase of food, etc. One sick person has got a tag team of 2 nurses (RNs) who get $30 an hour and it's round the clock care 24-7. So just in one hour, that's 60 bones. I suppose you could say the staff goes out and spends it in the ecconomy, but do they really? We don't know what becomes of that money. Maybe they hoarde it, or pay interest on loans or save for kids' tuition so the cash doesn't always flow. Compare this vast expense with the money spent on on stoner snacks all night and it would have to be the whole high school getting high/eating and contributing to the ecconomy to compensate for the hospital staff money. So even if there are just a few more patients, it becomes a huge burden to the already stretched-thin health care system.

And making the drug legal would increase the number of users or at least allow current users to increase their daily dose; I don't see why it wouldn't. People normally have to jones for a while when it is illegal. Their dealer is paranoid, the dealer thinks the cops are all out to get him, dealers can be real anarchists, they quit selling, run out, become unreliable, etc. Many people have to use a middle man who knows the dealer. The middle man moves away or rips off his friends. Now what? The users must take a drug holiday until they find a new source. Marijuana withdrawal syndrome is a cakewalk compared to nicotine withdrawal (intense cravings) and alcohol withdrawal (which can actually cause convulsions and death).

But if the drug is legal, these problems will go away and people who were once forced to stop using for a while can now use every single day until they get health problems. Then, party's over and they land in a hospital.

Some people actually quit because they are tired of getting hooked, then jonesing for a few days, spending the weekend shelling out unforseen amounts of money only to have someone dip into their share in the exchange. People get tired of relying on hick dealers and poor quality weed they get stuck with sometimes. There are many obsticles that limit their use or even cause them to quit. Getting too high after jonesing, worries about getting caught, and so on. Again, all these problems go away if you have legal, easy access to the drug every day. So people will smoke more and it add to the hospital stays.

Then there is the effect of tolerance which I won't get into now. But the obsticals of the drug being illegal means that after jonesing for a while, the users only have to start back up again using small doses. If it is legal, allowing them to never go without, they will need to take larger doses over time to attain a similar effect. Also, some people only pipe tiny amounts if they know their source is unreliable or a hassle.
 

Sokar Rostau

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

What I meant about the economy was this.

A smoker buys a pack of cigarettes and is taxed on it (I know it is much less in N. America, but in Australia the tax is at least 100% of what the pack should be worth, and I've heard it once described as 300%). That's it. That's their only contribution to the economy.

Total contribution: ~$10-$15 depending on brand.

Someone goes out on a Friday night and gets drunk, pays tax on their drinks and the pizza or a burger they buy on the way home. If that person is also a smoker they will be smoking around twice as many cigarettes while drinking than they normally would while sober.

Bottle of bourbon - $30
Slice of pizza/burger/kebab - $5-$15
50% more cigarettes - $5-$7.50
Total - $40-$62.50

A stoner will buy his pot, sit around for a few hours and then go out and buy food. Lots of junk food.

Pot - $25
Chocolate (3 bars and 1-2 blocks) - $10-$20
Bottle of Coke - $3
Chips (say a bag of Doritos and a bag of Cheetos) - $5-$6
Whole pizza - $15-$25
Another bottle of Coke - $3
"Oooo Beef Jerky!" - $4
"Hehehe Gummy Bears, dude, they're so cool" - $3
"OMG JELLY BELLIES!!!!" - $5
"Dude, what happened to the pizza?" "We ate it" "We did?" "Yup" "****, let's go to McDonald's."

Come to think of it, this balances out when the stoner is also a smoker because smoking pot has the opposite effect to drinking - it often makes you smoke less cigarettes (usually because tobacco is used to make the cannabis burn more evenly... which is also the PRIME reason for dependence among non-cigarette smoking stoners).

I'll address the rest when I wake up (been playing NWN2 and now it's 5am... )
 

PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

And making the drug legal would increase the number of users or at least allow current users to increase their daily dose; I don't see why it wouldn't.
Alcohol is legal, yet for some reason I do not drink three bottles of wine every night.

Cannabis is illegal, yet for some reason some people manage to practically chain-smoke the stuff.


 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

In your case there's a far easier alternative: cut defense and deficit funding. You pay about as much in interest on your mind-boggling debt as you do on health care.
Things that are difficult to do:

1. Moving faster than light.
2. Herding cats.
3. Making Congress spend the same amount of money it collects in taxes.
4. Holding your breath for 10 minutes.
5. Not correcting people who are wrong on the internet.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Seeing as you spend more on defense than most of the rest of the world combined - and unlike most countries you've never actually been invaded (except that one time when you attacked the British and bit off more than you could chew, if that counts) - you could probably fairly easily afford to slack off a bit there. You just have to buy some extra pairs of pants to help out when you wet yourselves every five minutes.

And of course, a large chunk of that debt is from past military spending.

But it's good to see a Libertarian completely unconcerned about out of control government spending, provided it's on a standing military (because you love those, of course). After all, that's how Reagan ruined conservatism.
 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Seeing as you spend more on defense than most of the rest of the world combined - and unlike most countries you've never actually been invaded (except that one time when you attacked the British and bit off more than you could chew, if that counts) - you could probably fairly easily afford to slack off a bit there.
Oh yeah? You just told them how great the money has been spent and how well the machine that money has oiled is working!

I'd agree with you. But do remember, since Libertarians think this is one of the few valid reasons for Government to exist and to spend money on, some are squeamish to undermine or question such way of spending money. This is because they think that a State unarmed is a nightwatch without his sword and holds but his lantern, and is good for nothing else than breeding anarchists.



 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Things that are difficult to do:

1. Moving faster than light.
2. Herding cats.
3. Making Congress spend the same amount of money it collects in taxes.
4. Holding your breath for 10 minutes.
5. Not correcting people who are wrong on the internet.
Man, thanks for #5 - I was just going to respond to Donny. :crazyeyes:



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Seeing as you spend more on defense than most of the rest of the world combined - and unlike most countries you've never actually been invaded (except that one time when you attacked the British and bit off more than you could chew, if that counts) - you could probably fairly easily afford to slack off a bit there. You just have to buy some extra pairs of pants to help out when you wet yourselves every five minutes.
Had to be said.

Americans love safety when it comes to geting more firepower.

Most of them get killed off because they're fat. Does that make them exercise and eat healthy for safety's sake?

**** no. They buy a gun. Because they want to protect themselves from harm!



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

Had to be said.

Americans love safety when it comes to geting more firepower.

Most of them get killed off because they're fat. Does that make them exercise and eat healthy for safety's sake?

**** no. They buy a gun. Because they want to protect themselves from harm!
To be fair, most of the things they're protecting themselves from are other Americans.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

This is because they think that a State unarmed is a nightwatch without his sword and holds but his lantern, and is good for nothing else than breeding anarchists.
LOL.

I think your understanding of libertarianism is a little wonky.



 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in Prohibition?

LOL.

I think your understanding of libertarianism is a little wonky.
Not necessarily. They full well know there's a thin line between them and their lawless brethren. That's why some of them endear that line and try to boldface it. Makes sense, actually.



 
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