Do you believe in God?

[PFSS]

Re: Do you believe in God?

but Christians can point to this verse:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Firstly - this is one of those instances where it would be really awesome if this was written down as it was spoken, not decades later.

Secondly - There's a lot of stuff in the New Testament that is at odds with the OT, and in these instances Christians believe that the word of Jesus supersedes laws laid down by God that had stood for a few thousand years. With this in mind it is a tad arrogant for Christians to believe that God would never send a further prophet whose word would supersede that of Jesus.

But don't worry - Muslims have similar issues with the Ba'hai as the Ba'hai believe that they worship the same God but have a more recent memo, which to Muslims is a direct challenge to their religion.

And if you aren't even a member of any of these religions, why do you even care?

I think non-members will stop bothering these religions when these religions stop bothering non-members.

Just as I have never met a person on the Left who doesn't believe he has the right to tell others how to live their lives.

Out of curiosity - what rights are the Social Liberals (who I'm guessing you're referring to as the Left in this context) planning on removing from Christians?

Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you do not approve of. Nazis were free to be Nazis under Hitler. It is only when you are able to do things that other people don't approve that you are free.

So you mean that when non-christians in the US can do things that Christians don't approve of, like *** marriages and abortion, then they will be free?

 

[KillerAim]

Re: Do you believe in God?

PFSS:

I think non-members will stop bothering these religions when these religions stop bothering non-members.

Pardon me, but your age is showing. The religious are fighting in the retreat mode. Nine times out of ten, the religious group is fighting for the return of religion to some aspect of society where it used to flourish. They are not trying to impose some new religious expression on Society as much as they are trying to prevent the abolition of religion from Society. Back around 40 or 50 years or so, religious Christmas songs where the norm in Public School; so were Christmas symbols such as a crèche, Saint Nicholas, or an angel. I worked at a factory where the Our Father was played at the beginning of each shift. Most states had blue laws and absolutely no politician would have dared advocate same sex marriage. Bush is considered some kind of a religious nut because of his references to God. The truth is that almost every president before him gave speeches that made his references seem very mild.

I'm in no way saying that that was a better society. I'm just saying that the idea that the Religious Right is trying to impose its views on a Society that has been 'religion-free' is an appalling rewriting of history.

Out of curiosity - what rights are the Social Liberals (who I'm guessing you're referring to as the Left in this context) planning on removing from Christians?

Different targets - same claim of superiority and a need to restrict consenting adults from performing consensual acts for the 'good of Society'. Restrictions on who I can hire or fire, rent to or refuse to rent to, associate with or refuse to associate with, all because the Left has determined that I might be unfair to some protected group. I can't open a restaurant that allows smoking; I soon won't be able to purchase a regular light bulb; and my son and daughter had to adhere to speech codes at college that threatened to punished them not for their intent, but rather for how someone might possibly perceive their intent. Or how about the good people who want to make it illegal for me to buy certain foodstuffs because they have determined that they are unhealthy for me?

And let's not forget the 600 pound gorilla in the room -- Global Warming fanaticism. I see no difference between a person who wants to make it impossible for me to marry someone of the same sex for the 'good of Society' and a person who wants to make it impossible for me to buy a gas guzzler for the 'good of Society'.

 

[Nostavar]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Secondly - There's a lot of stuff in the New Testament that is at odds with the OT, and in these instances Christians believe that the word of Jesus supersedes laws laid down by God that had stood for a few thousand years. With this in mind it is a tad arrogant for Christians to believe that God would never send a further prophet whose word would supersede that of Jesus.

But according to the bible, Jesus is God. Not just a prophet.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Do you believe in God?

PFSS:

Pardon me, but your age is showing. The religious are fighting in the retreat mode. Nine times out of ten, the religious group is fighting for the return of religion to some aspect of society where it used to flourish. They are not trying to impose some new religious expression on Society as much as they are trying to prevent the abolition of religion from Society. Back around 40 or 50 years or so, religious Christmas songs where the norm in Public School; so were Christmas symbols such as a crèche, Saint Nicholas, or an angel. I worked at a factory where the Our Father was played at the beginning of each shift. Most states had blue laws and absolutely no politician would have dared advocate same sex marriage. Bush is considered some kind of a religious nut because of his references to God. The truth is that almost every president before him gave speeches that made his references seem very mild.

I'm in no way saying that that was a better society. I'm just saying that the idea that the Religious Right is trying to impose its views on a Society that has been 'religion-free' is an appalling rewriting of history.

If you're trying to refute my point then I have to say that pointing out how the Religious have for decades been using the State to enforce their views on people seems to be an odd way to go about doing it.

Personally I'm with you on it going too far, like total removal of Christmas from public schools, but the origins of it going that far often lie in people on the Religious side using their positions to enforce religious education.

My (state) school, in the UK, did a Christmas play each year (though sometimes it was about Joseph) without complaint. Which when you consider that Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims made up about 95% of the school population is moderately impressive. We also did Eid and Diwali related events. There's a lot to be said for letting kids do this stuff, and it's sad that extremists on both sides have caused this to be removed from state schooling.

Restrictions on who I can hire or fire, rent to or refuse to rent to, associate with or refuse to associate with, all because the Left has determined that I might be unfair to some protected group. I can't open a restaurant that allows smoking; I soon won't be able to purchase a regular light bulb; and my son and daughter had to adhere to speech codes at college that threatened to punished them not for their intent, but rather for how someone might possibly perceive their intent. Or how about the good people who want to make it illegal for me to buy certain foodstuffs because they have determined that they are unhealthy for me?

Personally I'm with you on this stuff.

But according to the bible, Jesus is God. Not just a prophet.

God superseding himself by sending a prophet to speak on his behalf or God superseding himself in person - I'm not sure of the practical difference.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Also, every carpenter would tell us that we are idiots, as everybody knows that a table will fall over if you knock off one of its legs and only 3 remain.

Depends where people put their plates, I think.

Dondrei - please enlighten us as to your understanding of the Christian theology, and in what way am I wrong saying that YHWH and Yeshua and the Holy Ghost are the same being.

Insofar as they are not.

buttershug:

Just as I have never met a person on the Left who doesn't believe he has the right to tell others how to live their lives. Like Thomas Sowell has said:

So... telling people not to tell other people how to live their lives is telling people how to live their lives?

And let's not forget the 600 pound gorilla in the room -- Global Warming fanaticism. I see no difference between a person who wants to make it impossible for me to marry someone of the same sex for the 'good of Society' and a person who wants to make it impossible for me to buy a gas guzzler for the 'good of Society'.

Actually I think there is a difference there. One is for the good of society and the other is for the survival of society. If our society was a room filled with gas then restricting the sale of matches would not be the same as restricting the sale of tshirts with naughty words on them, for example.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Dondrei - please enlighten us as to your understanding of the Christian theology, and in what way am I wrong saying that YHWH and Yeshua and the Holy Ghost are the same being.

In the context of Christian theology you're perfectly correct. Your problem is that you use the standard of Christian theology to other religions. You claim that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Moslems (for some reason, you're missing Jews, who also worship the God of Abraham) do not bow to the triune God that Christians share. That's true, they would not acknowledge such aspects to belong to their God. Where you seem to make the strange comment is that you deduce that since we have YWHW as our God, and we assume Him to have these two other aspects and that these aspects to be inseparable of Him, nobody else is actually worshipping Him in any form or shape.

The rest of the world just doesn't see it that way. That's Dondrei's issue, if I read him right.

and my son and daughter had to adhere to speech codes at college that threatened to punished them not for their intent, but rather for how someone might possibly perceive their intent.

So disciplining a pupil for calling a teacher a shoddy ****** is unfair treatment that neglects to discover her true intent behind the speech act?

Trust me, most of the speech codes everywhere act on assumptions of perceived intent. I don't flip when called names, but I am not expected to accept it, either.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Well, the tetragrammaton is firmly associated with the God of the Old Testament. There have been various occasions on which it has been substituted for Jesus' name, and there are a few fringe theories that the New Testament originally contained such, but that's it.

In fact it is probably more familiar to modern Christians via Jewish mysticism than anything else.

 

[krischan]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Depends where people put their plates, I think.

Yes, that's a matter of the center of mass and not about defining a plane, but I prefer not to argue about it with a carpenter. They are the guys who need one stroke to hammer in a nail and I'm rather skinny, so I prefer not to appear as a smartass.

 

[Tanooki]

Re: Do you believe in God?

If you lump in Catholic with Christian, that's two...

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses worship a different deity (despite what they claim), just like Muslims.

Hmm.. interestingly enough, Jews share a deity with Christians and Catholics, but they'd deny it, wouldn't they?

Dondrei - please enlighten us as to your understanding of the Christian theology, and in what way am I wrong saying that YHWH and Yeshua and the Holy Ghost are the same being.

Insofar as they are not.

In the context of Christian theology you're perfectly correct. Your problem is that you use the standard of Christian theology to other religions. You claim that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Moslems (for some reason, you're missing Jews, who also worship the God of Abraham) do not bow to the triune God that Christians share. That's true, they would not acknowledge such aspects to belong to their God. Where you seem to make the strange comment is that you deduce that since we have YWHW as our God, and we assume Him to have these two other aspects and that these aspects to be inseparable of Him, nobody else is actually worshipping Him in any form or shape.

I've been using Christian theology (and I thought I was clear on it) simply to point out that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are their own seperate religions - not Christian denominations. I also pointed out that Muslims claim to worship "the God of Abraham" when in fact they worship "the God of Muhammad".

As far as Jewish people go - how many still today follow the Law as handed down by Moses? Are you actually worshipping your God? Do you really care what Christians think?

I think non-members will stop bothering these religions when these religions stop bothering non-members.

I was referring to someone who is neither a Mormon nor a Christian trying to argue that they're the same thing.

 

[buttershug]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I've been using Christian theology (and I thought I was clear on it) simply to point out that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are their own seperate religions - not Christian denominations. I also pointed out that Muslims claim to worship "the God of Abraham" when in fact they worship "the God of Muhammad".

As far as Jewish people go - how many still today follow the Law as handed down by Moses? Are you actually worshipping your God? Do you really care what Christians think?



I was referring to someone who is neither a Mormon nor a Christian trying to argue that they're the same thing.

But there are different groups that have as valid a claim to the title Christian as you do.
And Muslims can claim to worship the God of Abraham as much as you can.

BTW, you may have said but, do you observe Saturday as the Sabbath as the Bible says, or Sunday as the Catholics do?
Of course the strange thing is the Bible was put together by Catholics.

Imagine the discussion as if you were outside of any of the beliefs. The Islam claim to the God of Abraham is as strong as yours. The only reason you have to saying they don't is you believe something else.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Do you believe in God?

What's even weirder is that christians who of all people bellive in "Gods divine plan" seem to spend more than anyone praying to god and asking for things. If god already has a plan then who are you to ask him to change things?

 

[Tanooki]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I worship on Saturday.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I've been using Christian theology (and I thought I was clear on it) simply to point out that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are their own seperate religions - not Christian denominations. I also pointed out that Muslims claim to worship "the God of Abraham" when in fact they worship "the God of Muhammad".

And how do you make that claim? Have we, the Christians, not falsified what is the God of Abraham in your eyes then?

And just by listening stories tied to Eid al-Adha this week, I'd say pretty certainly that the Moslem God is the God of Abraham. Much more than ours, at least, for these guys Abraham is someone who matters, not a dusty old geezer in the thicker part of the Holy Book that you don't have to care about.

As far as Jewish people go - how many still today follow the Law as handed down by Moses? Are you actually worshipping your God? Do you really care what Christians think?

The "you" here is confusing. Are you talking to me or the general *** audience?

And as you know, literalist Orthodox Jews exist. And even if most Jews aren't that way, what has that to do anything? The law isn't unmade for us, either.

Imagine the discussion as if you were outside of any of the beliefs. The Islam claim to the God of Abraham is as strong as yours. The only reason you have to saying they don't is you believe something else.

Without further arguments, that's all I see, too. Which is kind of sad, since Tanooki argues well and, as far as I can tell, tries to remain objective, insofar as it is possible in a debate like this.

 

[Tanooki]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Sorry to be confusing - I just assumed there's Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, ect in the discussion. So anytime I say "you" when talking about a specific religion, I'm talking to the participants who it applies to.

I don't actually know who worships in what way. There could be nothing but Roman Catholics here as far as I know.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I've been using Christian theology (and I thought I was clear on it) simply to point out that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are their own seperate religions - not Christian denominations. I also pointed out that Muslims claim to worship "the God of Abraham" when in fact they worship "the God of Muhammad".

As far as Jewish people go - how many still today follow the Law as handed down by Moses? Are you actually worshipping your God? Do you really care what Christians think?

You're talking nonsense and your personal views on the limits of your religion in no way impedes other denominations from being Christian as well. You can put your hands over your ears and say that any church that doesn't believe in transsubstantiation like totally isn't a real church dude, but look how well that worked for Catholicism.

 

[Magi]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I grew up Catholic.

I am now an Atheist.

I am not an Atheist because I was Catholic.

I believe that everyone has the right to believe in whatever they choose.

I only have one question/concern/need for clarification, and that is in regards to "Born Again Christians". I don't get it. How does someone who has lost their faith along the way, and then become "born again", somehow think they are better than people who have never lost their faith? I see this type of "religious superiority" amongst the majority of born-again-christians that I've come across and I just don't get why they think they're more special than anyone else.

Bible belt FTL.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I grew up Catholic.

I am now an Atheist.

I am not an Atheist because I was Catholic.

I believe that everyone has the right to believe in whatever they choose.

I only have one question/concern/need for clarification, and that is in regards to "Born Again Christians". I don't get it. How does someone who has lost their faith along the way, and then become "born again", somehow think they are better than people who have never lost their faith? I see this type of "religious superiority" amongst the majority of born-again-christians that I've come across and I just don't get why they think they're more special than anyone else.

Bible belt FTL.

Prayer is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Do you believe in God?

I only have one question/concern/need for clarification, and that is in regards to "Born Again Christians". I don't get it. How does someone who has lost their faith along the way, and then become "born again", somehow think they are better than people who have never lost their faith? I see this type of "religious superiority" amongst the majority of born-again-christians that I've come across and I just don't get why they think they're more special than anyone else.

Bible belt FTL.

I don't think that "Born Again" means you're regained your faith. AFAIK they believe that, as an adult, you have to be reborn into the Holy Spirit.

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'[1] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

LINK

 

[Magi]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Thanks for the clarification. Typically, when I hear from people who are "born again", it goes something like this: "I was involved with drugs...stealing...etc" or they performed some other kind of illicit/questionable/shady/gray activity or left the church. Then there was some sort of invariable epiphany (maybe they saw Jesus in their corn flakes, etc) which resulted in them being "saved" and "born again". Next came the "holier than thou" attitude.

Maybe it's all just interpretation...

Thanks!

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Do you believe in God?

Thanks for the clarification. Typically, when I hear from people who are "born again", it goes something like this: "I was involved with drugs...stealing...etc" or they performed some other kind of illicit/questionable/shady/gray activity or left the church. Then there was some sort of invariable epiphany (maybe they saw Jesus in their corn flakes, etc) which resulted in them being "saved" and "born again". Next came the "holier than thou" attitude.

Maybe it's all just interpretation...

It is no coincidence that the denominations that most sternly preach the need for spiritual revival and rebirth are the ones that, by helping those people, seek to recruit among those they deem spiritually dead or near gone. Nor is it surprising that they actually manage to turn them for better - as much as some people hate preachers, I'll take a self-righteous Christian over a drug-addict mugger any day.