Do you believe in God?
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moo-cow
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
jews without the s is blocked by the filter beacuse it is still in use as an insult by the less savory members of this board.
as far as me not understanding the trinity correctly/at all, from the outside it looks a lot like 3 and not one. as far as the second commandment seeming to accept there being other gods out there, one could draw aditional proof from genesis where God says let us create man. that verse is followed by male and female he created them. Rashi points to that verse and says the Torah gives people the option of pointing to it as proof of multiple deities if thats what they want to read from it. As far as the second commandment, i think the classic jewish commentators say that of course there aren't other gods, and that in addition you shouldn't believe they exist or hold power seperately or in conjunction. I'll look more into it tomorrow since i'm not near my books right now.
just to clarify a bit, jews don't see jesus as a prophet, we don't believe/have record of/acknowledge/whatever any prophets from about the time of the end of the exile after the First Temple was destroyed as part of a balance with the idolaters also not having any more. We see him as just another agitator the romans killed. from a jewish law point regarding his teachings i've been told by rabbis i trust and who have looked at it themselves that he deviated on three things and either preached what was either a da'at yachid (lit. singular opinion, opinion held by one sage and rejected as an accepted practicible ruling) or acted against jewish law. the three were washing hands after eating a meal with bread instead of before it, healing on the sabbath, and i forget the third still.
jews without the s is blocked by the filter beacuse it is still in use as an insult by the less savory members of this board.
as far as me not understanding the trinity correctly/at all, from the outside it looks a lot like 3 and not one. as far as the second commandment seeming to accept there being other gods out there, one could draw aditional proof from genesis where God says let us create man. that verse is followed by male and female he created them. Rashi points to that verse and says the Torah gives people the option of pointing to it as proof of multiple deities if thats what they want to read from it. As far as the second commandment, i think the classic jewish commentators say that of course there aren't other gods, and that in addition you shouldn't believe they exist or hold power seperately or in conjunction. I'll look more into it tomorrow since i'm not near my books right now.
Tanooki
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
The Christian take on the "let us" from Genesis is that God is talking to Himself - specifically to the "section" of him that's Jesus.
John 1:1-3
I didn't mean that we shared "one of" our Gods with the Jews - I meant that we claim YHWY as our deity, even if Jews don't recognize it - much the same way Christians don't recognize Allah and YHWY as the same deity.
*edit* And it's the Muslims who think Jesus was a prophet, but not as high a prophet as Muhammad. The Jews think Jesus (if he actually existed) was just a guy who went around stirring up trouble.
*2nd edit* Is it considered "trying to get around the spam filter" when you're not flaming, but want someone to be able to read your discussion without having the fill in the blanks? Like if you italicize one of the letters so Jew shows up correctly, is that bannable? Or is it only when you want to use a word in a negative sense?
The Christian take on the "let us" from Genesis is that God is talking to Himself - specifically to the "section" of him that's Jesus.
John 1:1-3
I certainly can understand why people would assume Christians are polytheistic, but it isn't accurate.
I didn't mean that we shared "one of" our Gods with the Jews - I meant that we claim YHWY as our deity, even if Jews don't recognize it - much the same way Christians don't recognize Allah and YHWY as the same deity.
*edit* And it's the Muslims who think Jesus was a prophet, but not as high a prophet as Muhammad. The Jews think Jesus (if he actually existed) was just a guy who went around stirring up trouble.
*2nd edit* Is it considered "trying to get around the spam filter" when you're not flaming, but want someone to be able to read your discussion without having the fill in the blanks? Like if you italicize one of the letters so Jew shows up correctly, is that bannable? Or is it only when you want to use a word in a negative sense?
Majaii
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
I must admit that I find it kind of funny that we put Christians, Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witness's in separate categories, since they all believe in Christ. I take it though that christians is supposed to mean just a general christian belief or church, such as a born again christian?
I don't know about muslims, but from what I understand all of those religions including jews believe in God the Father. Catholics just use the trinity, jews believe in God as well, which many would call the god of the old testament. Mormons as we have come to be known, believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the holy ghost as 3 seperate members of what we call the Godhead, that are all of the same purpose. I don't know about Jehovah's witness as much, but they believe in Christ, and I am pretty sure in the Father as well.
Catholics:
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/beliefs.php
Mormons:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-restoration-of-truth
Jehovah's Witness:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/article_02.htm
Don't know who you mean by christians, so nothing there.
Edit: I can only claim to know what LDS (Mormons) believe, so the others is just what I have heard. Not intended to cause a ruckus, but flame on if you feel the need :wink:
I must admit that I find it kind of funny that we put Christians, Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witness's in separate categories, since they all believe in Christ. I take it though that christians is supposed to mean just a general christian belief or church, such as a born again christian?
I don't know about muslims, but from what I understand all of those religions including jews believe in God the Father. Catholics just use the trinity, jews believe in God as well, which many would call the god of the old testament. Mormons as we have come to be known, believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the holy ghost as 3 seperate members of what we call the Godhead, that are all of the same purpose. I don't know about Jehovah's witness as much, but they believe in Christ, and I am pretty sure in the Father as well.
Catholics:
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/beliefs.php
Mormons:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-restoration-of-truth
Jehovah's Witness:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/article_02.htm
Don't know who you mean by christians, so nothing there.
Edit: I can only claim to know what LDS (Mormons) believe, so the others is just what I have heard. Not intended to cause a ruckus, but flame on if you feel the need :wink:
BobCox2
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
I listed as Agnostic since I believe in God to the extent that I would define God as the force or forces that is responsible for the universe.
Thats about all the definition I have though. I don't believe participation in organized religion though.
The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.
I listed as Agnostic since I believe in God to the extent that I would define God as the force or forces that is responsible for the universe.
Thats about all the definition I have though. I don't believe participation in organized religion though.
The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.
Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it.
TheNix
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
This is more or less what I think and expressed far better than I could.
Tanooki
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
BobCox2, like I said, I can understand why you believe we're polytheistic. But please give us the benefit of the doubt. The mistake is with your understanding of the nature of the trinity, not with our understanding of what polytheistic and monotheistic mean.
BobCox2, like I said, I can understand why you believe we're polytheistic. But please give us the benefit of the doubt. The mistake is with your understanding of the nature of the trinity, not with our understanding of what polytheistic and monotheistic mean.
Re: Do you believe in God?
Anyway - assuming there is a God then surely, by definition, everyone worshiping a deity is worshiping the same deity, just in different ways?
Personally if I had to choose a religion I would go with Bahá'à as I generally like a lot of their world view, although (like almost all religions) they're too socially conservative for me really.
I like their stance that 'God' sends prophets to people at a time and a place that is suitable for those people to help them. Then later sends a new prophet when they are ready for the new teachings. This essentially views most religions as 'true' - that God came to a particular people in a particular place and gave them a message that was suitable to them, which might have been different to the message that was suitable for people in another part of the world.
The rationalism that they are all parts of the same god isn't toooooo far from the Hindu position where Brahman is "God", Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva are all parts of Brahman and the remaining gods are all part of Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva.
Anyway - assuming there is a God then surely, by definition, everyone worshiping a deity is worshiping the same deity, just in different ways?
Personally if I had to choose a religion I would go with Bahá'à as I generally like a lot of their world view, although (like almost all religions) they're too socially conservative for me really.
I like their stance that 'God' sends prophets to people at a time and a place that is suitable for those people to help them. Then later sends a new prophet when they are ready for the new teachings. This essentially views most religions as 'true' - that God came to a particular people in a particular place and gave them a message that was suitable to them, which might have been different to the message that was suitable for people in another part of the world.
KillerAim
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
Tanooki:
Water can be a solid, a liquid, or a gas: three aspects of one substance. God can be the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit; three aspects of a single deity.
Tanooki:
The explanation I prefer was told to me by a Priest when I was in his class in high school. It's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across.
Water can be a solid, a liquid, or a gas: three aspects of one substance. God can be the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit; three aspects of a single deity.
WildBerry
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
While not a perfect analogy, I would like to take a second to cheer this, for "aspect" is indeed a rather appropriate term to express the parts of the trinity. One could indeed say it's the same entity expressing itself or manifesting differently.
Re: Do you believe in God?
Thought i would clarify the multiple christian thing a bit
Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was a god not God
Only 144,000 will go to heaven (basic all of the Jehovah's Witnesses) and will rule with Jesus over the new earth where people who were resurrected by God will live after Armageddon
There is no hell
There are several other points but they're the main differences.
Mormons believe
believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this, the American continent
believe in baptizing a living person on behalf of a dead person ensuring a place in heaven
also since i cant be bothered writing all of it this http://www.*********/lds/nutshell.htm
Catholics Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, thus she is called theotokos (God-Bearer) and "mother of God." Catholics, like Protestants, believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. However, Catholics and Orthodox believe that Mary remained a Virgin her entire life. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived without original sin in order to be a sinless bearer of God incarnate: Jesus Christ. This is known as the immaculate conception. This sinlessness was accomplished only on account of God's grace, and not on Mary's merits. The Orthodox too believe that Mary was sinless when bearing Jesus, but the moment at which she became sinless is debated. Catholics and Orthodox both believe that after Mary completed the course of her earthly life, she was assumed into heaven, similar to the way the great saint Elijah was. Mary is the Mother of us and the mother of the Church, and just as Christ is the new Adam, Mary is the new Eve, who obeyed God where Eve disobeyed.
Catholics hold Mary in high regard and often pray to her (hail Mary)
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen
They believe that the bread and wine of the Eucharist really are Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity — not just "symbols".
Like with the other religions there are other differences and it may seem small you many people to us (the people who practice these religions) they are significant.
Sorry for the long winded and incoherent post I'm completely buggered after work
Thought i would clarify the multiple christian thing a bit
Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was a god not God
Only 144,000 will go to heaven (basic all of the Jehovah's Witnesses) and will rule with Jesus over the new earth where people who were resurrected by God will live after Armageddon
There is no hell
There are several other points but they're the main differences.
Mormons believe
believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this, the American continent
believe in baptizing a living person on behalf of a dead person ensuring a place in heaven
also since i cant be bothered writing all of it this http://www.*********/lds/nutshell.htm
Catholics Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, thus she is called theotokos (God-Bearer) and "mother of God." Catholics, like Protestants, believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. However, Catholics and Orthodox believe that Mary remained a Virgin her entire life. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived without original sin in order to be a sinless bearer of God incarnate: Jesus Christ. This is known as the immaculate conception. This sinlessness was accomplished only on account of God's grace, and not on Mary's merits. The Orthodox too believe that Mary was sinless when bearing Jesus, but the moment at which she became sinless is debated. Catholics and Orthodox both believe that after Mary completed the course of her earthly life, she was assumed into heaven, similar to the way the great saint Elijah was. Mary is the Mother of us and the mother of the Church, and just as Christ is the new Adam, Mary is the new Eve, who obeyed God where Eve disobeyed.
Catholics hold Mary in high regard and often pray to her (hail Mary)
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen
They believe that the bread and wine of the Eucharist really are Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity — not just "symbols".
Like with the other religions there are other differences and it may seem small you many people to us (the people who practice these religions) they are significant.
Sorry for the long winded and incoherent post I'm completely buggered after work
Dondrei
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
I find it really bizarre when Americans talk about Catholics and Christians like they're completely separate religions. I mean for one thing, if anyone has the right to claim the word "Christian", it's Catholics.
And anyway, don't they teach you the word "Protestant"?
P.S. I can't answer this question because it can't decide whether it's about theism or religion.
I find it really bizarre when Americans talk about Catholics and Christians like they're completely separate religions. I mean for one thing, if anyone has the right to claim the word "Christian", it's Catholics.
And anyway, don't they teach you the word "Protestant"?
P.S. I can't answer this question because it can't decide whether it's about theism or religion.
What's wrong with a good old-fashioned clover?
Re: Do you believe in God?
Why do Catholics have the right to be called Christian? they believe things which aren't scriptural (not in the bible) not to mention it is the Catholics who want to be called Catholic (well at least originally anyway) and they were not the first Christians anyway
P.S. just so you know I'm an Aussie
Why do Catholics have the right to be called Christian? they believe things which aren't scriptural (not in the bible) not to mention it is the Catholics who want to be called Catholic (well at least originally anyway) and they were not the first Christians anyway
P.S. just so you know I'm an Aussie
Re: Do you believe in God?
No they weren't the original Christians existed during and after the life of Christ and the word/religion of Catholicism appeared around 107 AD and and many Easter Orthodox churches refer to the Pope as the head of the Church and call themselves Catholic,
Catholicism is a broad term that refers to the body of the Catholic faith, its theologies and doctrines, its liturgical, ethical, spiritual, and behavioral characteristics, as well as a religious people as a whole.[1] In one sense, it refers to the Roman Catholic Church and the Christians living in communion with the Church of Rome.[2] In a broader sense, Catholicism is associated with any church, including Anglicanism, that claims continuity with the Catholic Church before separation into Greek or Eastern and Latin or Western.[3] Churches that make this claim of continuity include not only those of the Anglican Communion, but, among others, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East.
No they weren't the original Christians existed during and after the life of Christ and the word/religion of Catholicism appeared around 107 AD and and many Easter Orthodox churches refer to the Pope as the head of the Church and call themselves Catholic,
Catholicism is a broad term that refers to the body of the Catholic faith, its theologies and doctrines, its liturgical, ethical, spiritual, and behavioral characteristics, as well as a religious people as a whole.[1] In one sense, it refers to the Roman Catholic Church and the Christians living in communion with the Church of Rome.[2] In a broader sense, Catholicism is associated with any church, including Anglicanism, that claims continuity with the Catholic Church before separation into Greek or Eastern and Latin or Western.[3] Churches that make this claim of continuity include not only those of the Anglican Communion, but, among others, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East.
There's also a huge difference between a difference of interpretation and down right blasphemy
krischan
Europe Trade Moderator
Re: Do you believe in God?
Just so you know, I'm not a Catholic and I'm not even particularly religious.
Why aren't they Christians then ? Who says that ? And who says that they were not the first Christians ? The Roman Catholic church says that it was founded by Jesus himself who said that he will build his church on Petrus who was the first bishop of Rome.
Just so you know, I'm not a Catholic and I'm not even particularly religious.
Re: Do you believe in God?
Petrus is Peter and that scripture is so often misinterpreted
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it," (Matt. 16:18).
The Roman Catholic Church Puts a great deal of emphasis on Peter and claims that Jesus said he would build his church on him.
The scripture reference to which the Roman Catholic Church attempts to substantiate its position is found in Matt. 16:18. Here it is in context.
"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ," (Matt. 16:15-20).
Nouns in Greek have gender similarly to actor/actress in the original text the word that was used was not the male "petros" referring to Peter the first Priest of Rome but the female noun petra meaning "I will build my church upon rock" which is referenced in the bible as being a strong foundation so it basically means 'I will build my church upon a strong foundation'
Other examples of the noun petras referriing to a rock or stone include
# Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
# 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
# 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."
Petrus is Peter and that scripture is so often misinterpreted
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it," (Matt. 16:18).
The Roman Catholic Church Puts a great deal of emphasis on Peter and claims that Jesus said he would build his church on him.
The scripture reference to which the Roman Catholic Church attempts to substantiate its position is found in Matt. 16:18. Here it is in context.
"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ," (Matt. 16:15-20).
Nouns in Greek have gender similarly to actor/actress in the original text the word that was used was not the male "petros" referring to Peter the first Priest of Rome but the female noun petra meaning "I will build my church upon rock" which is referenced in the bible as being a strong foundation so it basically means 'I will build my church upon a strong foundation'
Other examples of the noun petras referriing to a rock or stone include
# Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
# 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
# 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."
buttershug
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
and moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
Edit and the Christians around the time of Christ and shortly after did not believe he was the Son of God.
If you believe that, you got it from the Catholics. Your beliefs are not from the early Christians, they are from the Catholic line.
They wrote the Bible.
and moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
Edit and the Christians around the time of Christ and shortly after did not believe he was the Son of God.
If you believe that, you got it from the Catholics. Your beliefs are not from the early Christians, they are from the Catholic line.
Tanooki
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Do you believe in God?
I attend a home church on Saturday... I can't stand bureaucratic churches anymore. The government was clever - it knew that if restrictions were placed on the Church people would rebel. So instead they granted the Church tax exception status - as long as they don't preach politics. The fear of losing that status keeps the Church right where the government wants it.
As for the deity status of Jesus, perhaps the Catholics were the first to realize it, but there's plenty of scripture for anyone today to come to that conclusion on their own. I personally rely on none of the Catholic traditions that aren't found in the Bible.
Communion - yes
Baptism - yes
Confessing to a priest for forgiveness - no
Last Rites - no
I attend a home church on Saturday... I can't stand bureaucratic churches anymore. The government was clever - it knew that if restrictions were placed on the Church people would rebel. So instead they granted the Church tax exception status - as long as they don't preach politics. The fear of losing that status keeps the Church right where the government wants it.
As for the deity status of Jesus, perhaps the Catholics were the first to realize it, but there's plenty of scripture for anyone today to come to that conclusion on their own. I personally rely on none of the Catholic traditions that aren't found in the Bible.
Communion - yes
Baptism - yes
Confessing to a priest for forgiveness - no
Last Rites - no