Diablo IV, Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 Forums - Diabloii.Net
Diablo Item Classes. A Concept
Well, we go back to discuss Rares vs Uniques. A debate that has subsided somewhat in the past years, has been brought up occasionally since D3 was announced, but I suspect will become the thing of the day once more info on item classes is eventually released.
This post is just my small contribution to the debate and my attempt at exposing what I've been thinking for the past few weeks over this issue. I do not presume Blizzard needs "idea makers". The good folks at Irvine are some of the best in the business. And if that isn't enough they do talk among themselves and brainstorm. Furthermore, what I'm going to present here will indeed deviate somewhat from what D1, and particularly D2, got us used to. But... and this is the but... why not discuss? Who knows, maybe some juice can be taken of this.
...
It's been my opinion since pretty much the launch of D2, the item classes and item generation in Diablo is all wrong on what concerns Rares and Uniques. Magical and Socketed items have very specific purposes and as such are in a world apart. Crafted items are most probably not even be a part of D3, so discussing these is mute. Even if they do, they will most certainly be much different from D2.
The debate has always been a struggle between the importance these items have on the character. I always subconsciously felt there was something wrong with the whole debate. But only recently could put my finger on it. And that is, if Rares should be better than Uniques or Uniques better than Rares is, in my opinion not the problem, but the consequence of the actual problem. When a conflict arrives, the solution is found by searching the root of the problem. The problem isn't the conflict, but what caused it.
When D2 arrived it didn't take long for the first voices to be heard (and I was one of them) that weren't all too happy with the way Uniques had been treated. For the most part these items were pretty much useless. The logic escaped us: How could these items, the rarer of the rare, with unique artwork on most cases and that cool factor associated with a gold drop, be so, you know, weak? The fact is that the people at Blizzard North probably felt the same and they corrected the "mistake" with the LoD Expansion.
When LoD arrived something weird happen. Soon enough another batch of voices was heard complaining that rares should deserve a better treatment. They were now useless, they rightfully said.
And so it was born the Days of Conflict... not really. Just doing the dramatic bit. In any case, I was already somewhat aware at the time the mistake hadn't actually been corrected. Just changed to become another mistake. Because one can complain Uniques should be better than Rares with the same validity than someone else arguing that Rares should be better than Uniques. There's a thread somewhere on this forum where yours truly tries to convince everyone that Uniques should be better and ends up defeated by the logic of the arguments of those who think they shouldn't. And I still think Uniques should be better, but I can't deny some of the most strong arguments against this.
So, where is the problem exactly. How could this be solved?
Let me tell you that I believe to think that some balance can be achieved between Rares and Uniques so that players can fully enjoy these two item types is an error. It just won't happen. The random nature of Rares leaves no room for proper balancing against a fixed item type (even if one with semi random mods like most LoD uniques). Mods on rares would have to see their current caps buffed. But this would lead to a strong possibility of powerful rares that would outshine current Uniques. And as the game progressed and we stashed our findings, more and more great rares would penetrate the market until Uniques became useless trinkets. And so there we would go again...
No. I believe the answer lies in scratching the whole Rares/Uniques concept and start with a clean slate.
So, here it goes...
What if the Rare and Unique classes are not a function of the item, but of the mods? In other words, what if it where mods, their quantity and grade, that dictated if an item was Magical, Rare or Unique?
Let me try and help you visualize this; An item is set to drop and the mod generator algorithms kicks in. Forgetting all factors that can affect item generation, let us assume we are at the start of the algorithms. Mods start being picked (increase max damage +, cannot be frozen, blabla) as well as their respective values if available (I'll call them grade or quality of the mod).
Eventually the algorithms either hits a "no more mods" or "max mods reached", or whatever, flag and ends. Now... if the item generation engine contained a sort of "calculator" that could pick those mods, their grades, and even combinations of mods, it could ascribe the item as being magical (few mods maybe 1 or 2, low or medium grade values), Rare (up to X mods, some medium and high values), and Unique (more than X mods, many high values).
And to make it even more representative, it could decide certain Uniques, or all Uniques, could roll one or two more mods as a bonus from the same mod tables as all items or from a special mod table for Uniques only. In the end, the item would drop with the respective color.
So what does this mean?
- Uniques as we know them today would be gone. The new concept would be of randomly generated items that have better mods than rares. Artwork could still be defined and attributed to Uniques being generated with certain type of mods. Names could still be given from tables of names that were too associated with mods.
- All items (Magical, Rare and Uniques) were rolled the same way. Item balancing issues would be almost certainly easier to manage by the game designers. Albeit, perhaps more complicated to code initially.
- The item class concept in Diablo would shift towards mods. These would be the defining factor of an item class, its quality and its price (both on the in-game shops as in players markets). As it should.
- Magical, Rare and Uniques would all scale nicely and in an harmonious manner. No more Rares better than uniques, or magical better than rares. The gradation of these item classes was simplified and made obvious.
- Legendary Items could still exist of course, and take the place of Uniques as the fixed item type. Only this time uncontested. Because of their godly nature there wouldn't be a discussion of the likes "Uniques should be better than Legendary!".
...
Folks, I get into the habit of writing a lot. Get carried away and am not really good summarizing. But paraphrasing the great Blaise Pascal "if this post is too long, is because I lacked the time to make it shorter."
And so I'll stop here and hope to drawn some comments.
Well, we go back to discuss Rares vs Uniques. A debate that has subsided somewhat in the past years, has been brought up occasionally since D3 was announced, but I suspect will become the thing of the day once more info on item classes is eventually released.
This post is just my small contribution to the debate and my attempt at exposing what I've been thinking for the past few weeks over this issue. I do not presume Blizzard needs "idea makers". The good folks at Irvine are some of the best in the business. And if that isn't enough they do talk among themselves and brainstorm. Furthermore, what I'm going to present here will indeed deviate somewhat from what D1, and particularly D2, got us used to. But... and this is the but... why not discuss? Who knows, maybe some juice can be taken of this.
...
It's been my opinion since pretty much the launch of D2, the item classes and item generation in Diablo is all wrong on what concerns Rares and Uniques. Magical and Socketed items have very specific purposes and as such are in a world apart. Crafted items are most probably not even be a part of D3, so discussing these is mute. Even if they do, they will most certainly be much different from D2.
The debate has always been a struggle between the importance these items have on the character. I always subconsciously felt there was something wrong with the whole debate. But only recently could put my finger on it. And that is, if Rares should be better than Uniques or Uniques better than Rares is, in my opinion not the problem, but the consequence of the actual problem. When a conflict arrives, the solution is found by searching the root of the problem. The problem isn't the conflict, but what caused it.
When D2 arrived it didn't take long for the first voices to be heard (and I was one of them) that weren't all too happy with the way Uniques had been treated. For the most part these items were pretty much useless. The logic escaped us: How could these items, the rarer of the rare, with unique artwork on most cases and that cool factor associated with a gold drop, be so, you know, weak? The fact is that the people at Blizzard North probably felt the same and they corrected the "mistake" with the LoD Expansion.
When LoD arrived something weird happen. Soon enough another batch of voices was heard complaining that rares should deserve a better treatment. They were now useless, they rightfully said.
And so it was born the Days of Conflict... not really. Just doing the dramatic bit. In any case, I was already somewhat aware at the time the mistake hadn't actually been corrected. Just changed to become another mistake. Because one can complain Uniques should be better than Rares with the same validity than someone else arguing that Rares should be better than Uniques. There's a thread somewhere on this forum where yours truly tries to convince everyone that Uniques should be better and ends up defeated by the logic of the arguments of those who think they shouldn't. And I still think Uniques should be better, but I can't deny some of the most strong arguments against this.
So, where is the problem exactly. How could this be solved?
Let me tell you that I believe to think that some balance can be achieved between Rares and Uniques so that players can fully enjoy these two item types is an error. It just won't happen. The random nature of Rares leaves no room for proper balancing against a fixed item type (even if one with semi random mods like most LoD uniques). Mods on rares would have to see their current caps buffed. But this would lead to a strong possibility of powerful rares that would outshine current Uniques. And as the game progressed and we stashed our findings, more and more great rares would penetrate the market until Uniques became useless trinkets. And so there we would go again...
No. I believe the answer lies in scratching the whole Rares/Uniques concept and start with a clean slate.
So, here it goes...
What if the Rare and Unique classes are not a function of the item, but of the mods? In other words, what if it where mods, their quantity and grade, that dictated if an item was Magical, Rare or Unique?
Let me try and help you visualize this; An item is set to drop and the mod generator algorithms kicks in. Forgetting all factors that can affect item generation, let us assume we are at the start of the algorithms. Mods start being picked (increase max damage +, cannot be frozen, blabla) as well as their respective values if available (I'll call them grade or quality of the mod).
Eventually the algorithms either hits a "no more mods" or "max mods reached", or whatever, flag and ends. Now... if the item generation engine contained a sort of "calculator" that could pick those mods, their grades, and even combinations of mods, it could ascribe the item as being magical (few mods maybe 1 or 2, low or medium grade values), Rare (up to X mods, some medium and high values), and Unique (more than X mods, many high values).
And to make it even more representative, it could decide certain Uniques, or all Uniques, could roll one or two more mods as a bonus from the same mod tables as all items or from a special mod table for Uniques only. In the end, the item would drop with the respective color.
So what does this mean?
- Uniques as we know them today would be gone. The new concept would be of randomly generated items that have better mods than rares. Artwork could still be defined and attributed to Uniques being generated with certain type of mods. Names could still be given from tables of names that were too associated with mods.
- All items (Magical, Rare and Uniques) were rolled the same way. Item balancing issues would be almost certainly easier to manage by the game designers. Albeit, perhaps more complicated to code initially.
- The item class concept in Diablo would shift towards mods. These would be the defining factor of an item class, its quality and its price (both on the in-game shops as in players markets). As it should.
- Magical, Rare and Uniques would all scale nicely and in an harmonious manner. No more Rares better than uniques, or magical better than rares. The gradation of these item classes was simplified and made obvious.
- Legendary Items could still exist of course, and take the place of Uniques as the fixed item type. Only this time uncontested. Because of their godly nature there wouldn't be a discussion of the likes "Uniques should be better than Legendary!".
...
Folks, I get into the habit of writing a lot. Get carried away and am not really good summarizing. But paraphrasing the great Blaise Pascal "if this post is too long, is because I lacked the time to make it shorter."
And so I'll stop here and hope to drawn some comments.