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Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?) d

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by Soulless, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Firstly, this is supposed to be a discussion about the sorceress class. What about exactly? Read on!

    I have been playing DII for a very long time and I could not help but notice that the sorceress class is somewhat gimped. Why? Perhaps I am wrong here, but hear me out.

    Before you read on, the following is an opinion from a sorceress player whose playing style does NOT include a mercenary and who likes SOLO play more than teaming up, and I shy away from Infinity not only because it's become boring, but because it's too generic as well (at least for me). Plus, the use of Infinity also means using a mercenary, so...Anyway, please read the following keeping in mind what I just said.

    I'm talking about immunities on Hell.

    There are simply too many of them. Almost any monster I run into has an elemental immunity. When I run into a boss, it has at least two immunities, and if they happen to be the ones I specialized for, I'm basically screwed. And tri-elemental sorceresses leave me too weak to be honest...so much effort for them for just mediocre damage, or even less than mediocre...it's not worth it in my opinion. Too much effort for a mediocre result.

    Elemental immunities are way too common. Physical immunes, magic immunes and poison immunes are not nearly as common as fire, cold and lightning immunities. You see whole packs immune to one of your elements, like cold, for example. And they are very common compared to let's say, physical immune packs. Physical immune packs are rare compared to cold immune packs, or fire immune packs, or lightning immune packs.

    I'll be honest....I feel like **** when I invest 50+ skill points into fire only to see that every other boss on Hell is immune to it, not to mention a bunch of other normal monsters. That's half my god damn skill points...and they ain't worth crap. Almost any other PvM build can get more out of 50 skill points than a sorceress. Because my 50 skill points don't mean **** when so many monsters are immune to fire.

    Is the game staged against the sorceress? Are a sorceresses' skill points worth less than those of other classes?

    IMO, the answer is yes. But I would like to hear your opinions. Am I wrong and just over reacting, or is there some truth in what I said?

    Thanks for reading, and I'm eagerly awaiting any comments.
     
  2. zrk

    zrk Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Perhaps try out d2 versions 1.06 or earlier. No immunities there so you can enjoy spamming your favourite skills as much as you want. More hell viable skills overall, too. and once you try 1.06 static field, there is no way sorceress could seem underpowered, Lol :p
     
  3. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    This much I know :) But this is version 1.13, and not 1.06, sadly. And I play on battle.net, so I can't really just play any version I like. I wouldn't want to either, since 1.13 is the official version.

    But like I said, I play on Battle.net, so playing another version is not a possibility :)


     
  4. Millard

    Millard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    wow this brings back memories of the world of warcraft forums, back when i played that game LOL. everyone always complaining about how their class sucks. probably a troll post but i'll bite.

    sorceress is the 2nd most played class on bnet, just behind paladin. she's not gimp at all. If you think she's gimp, you're doing it wrong.

    and most classes have problems with immunities, not just sorcs.

    I'm not sure what you're problem is-- a dual element sorc build can easily solo hell untwinked. single element sorcs make some of the best MF chars and you can spec energy shield for very high survivability. my infinity lightning sorc can solo any area of the game quickly and easily while wearing 1700% gold find gear.

    so i guess your main problem is killing that one dual immune mob (that you should be skipping anyway) because you can't be bothered to hire a merc?
     
  5. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    No my friend, this is not a troll post :) Thanks for replying! This is not a whine either, like I said, it's supposed to be a discussion.

    I know all classes have problems with immunities, and I did not say otherwise. I was making the point that immunities are way more of a problem for a sorceress than other classes, because the sorceress relies on elemental damage (fire, cold, lightning), and those immunities are the most common types of immunities in the game. Physical, magic and poison immunes are very rare compared to fire, cold and lightning.

    Also, let's leave mercenaries out of this. Everyone has their own play style, and mine does not include a mercenary. My main problem is not with the mercenaries themselves, but rather with the fact that a sorceress RELIES on one to be a tank. I happen to like the idea of a sorceress who can get by on her own, and prefer to play without a mercenary.

    Also, I realize that the sorceress is a great MF-er, and that it's a very common and popular class, and very fun to play (it's the only class I have ever played, I tried other classes and no class I ever played was nearly as interesting as the sorceress) but that's not the point of the discussion :)


     
  6. MinusDII

    MinusDII Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    I agree that Sorcs have an unfair disadvantage. Light Sorc with Infinity is the only one which can handle Hell like other characters. Other builds do work but its difficult (compared with Light Sorc/Hammerdin/Summoner ext.) even with great gear.

    Of course if you did change the game so there were no immunities then Sorcs skills would have to be completly rebalanced. Without immunities sorcs would be far too powerful so all there skills would need to be nerfed.

    IMO all they should really do is stop infinity breaking light immunes, at least then other builds would compete on an even playing field.
     
  7. Ghoulz

    Ghoulz Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    It really is unfair for the sorceress if you focus on mastering a single powerful skill like lightning or blizzard.

    When you choose to go dual elemental, your usually forced to use the same typical skills.
     
  8. redground

    redground Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    I think they should find ways to sorcs break cold and fire imunities, but infinity would be too obvious. Maybe cold mastery could break imunities, they would just have the max monster cold resist should be -200.


    It would be nice do spam a super orb and kill everything on screen, like lightning does today.

    Or maybe make Hydras able to break immunities.
     
  9. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    I agree. I think there should be only one immunity per monster, and that the 6 types of immunities should be spread out equally among the monsters in Hell difficulty, so that no one immunity would be encountered too often.

    Like this, I have always felt that the game is pretty much staged against me, and I don't even wanna talk about Uber Tristram, where the adds are immune to ALL 3 of your elements. And everywhere I go, elemental immunities are abundant, and there's no way you can use your skills freely like other classes. And you know that your main skill will only last you until Hell, because then it's gonna be overshadowed by immunities.

    Yup, Frozen Orb is getting really boring as a backup skill, especially after I made like what, 50 sorceresses or so during the time I played DII? And I'm talking 50 minimum here, what on Single Player mode, what on Battle.net, SC or HC...you name it.

    It's kind of ironic that the sorceress has no inherent way whatsoever to break immunities, considering that almost EVERY Hell monster has at least one elemental immunity, and the sorceress deals only elemental damage.


     
  10. EnerSense

    EnerSense Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Blizzard has tried to balance the game but it's difficult to do that. You have serveral classes each with their strengths and weaknesses so it's really impossible to do it fairly. No matter what is done, one class will always seem stronger or weaker than another. When I think of a sorceress or some type of magic user, I imagine someone that has control of magic to deal with any type of situation. I play Single Player and I've made Tri-Elementalists which I posted in the Single Player Forum and some that I did not post. I do have to agree that they are weaker and I play them on lower player settings (up to a 4 player game). I've created some Dual-Elementalists (Meteorb and CL/FO) and noticed the increase in power in those builds. My merc takes care of the immunities that my sorc cannot deal with otherwise I just teleport past it. Maybe we're better off playing a different game. :)
     
  11. Noite Escura

    Noite Escura Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Well, if your playstyle doesn't include a mercenary you should maybe not be playing a sorc. :scratchchin:
    There are too few dual immune monsters in the game, usually only pack bosses that can be avoided without major problems. Unless you're aiming at killing EVERY monster in the game, (doing all areas, clearing any monster style). But then again, you're probably going to have problems with every class, because most don't have a way to deal 3 sources of damage (unless Summonmancers, which can use Amp to break phys immunes, but then again, good luck clearing areas with a no-merc summoner --- boooooring). I don't remember playing a class that can rely on itself and kill ALL character in the game. Even toons that have a 3rd type of attack usually have it fairly weak and will require a merc to tank against an abnormally strong boss. Even hammerdins have taken a penalty now in 1.13 and can't kill magic immunes anymore.
    Honestly, I don't see why people complain about dual element sorcs being weak. My Tal's Meteorb could kill Mephisto in 6 seconds in a solo game. Sorceress are glass cannons, so that their attacks can be powerfull even if not fully developed. You can even go tri-elemental and have power to clear the game with the right equipment. Of course there will always be that Fanatic Cursed Extra Strong boss that will be impossible to tank, but then it would be a tough nut to any class.
    If there is a situation I think sorcs have an disdvantage tough, is in PvP, where you can't make a Sorc vs all build. No matter how much powerfull your atacks are, they can be negated by a bad loser char.



     
  12. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    I agree that balancing the game is a big problem, and I acknowledge that it's not easy to do that.

    But...wouldn't it be good if immunities were limited to just 1 immunity per monster if there's just 1 player in the game, and then increase the number of immunities to a maximum of 2 (on bosses only, of course) if 2 or more players are in the game? I'm not a game developer, but this sounds like a good solution, if we were to look for one.

    I played a lot of sorceresses, and always without a mercenary, and I did very well, apart from immunities, which were just a huge pain in the backside. I have to say that it's not fun even for a dual element sorceress to have 1/4 of monsters in the game immune to one of her elements. We're talking 50+ skill points for her main skill, and every 4th pack is immune to it...

    And yes, I usually do aim at killing every monster I come across. I like the thought of a sorceress who does't have to restart the game because she can't kill the 3 ancients in Arreat to get to Ball because one or even two of them are immune to both of her elements.

    You speak the truth, more or less. I understand that every class can encounter monsters that are immune to their attacks. But the problem is that cold/fire/lightning immunities appear on almost EVERY monster in the game.

    Poison necromancers don't have as many problems with poison immunes, and paladins and barbarians don't have as many problems with physical immunes. Magic immunes are rare as well.

    But elemental immunities are so common, they seriously gimp the sorceress. How often do other classes need to deal with poison/magic/physical immunes? Not all that often, right? But how often does the sorceress have to deal with cold/fire/lightning immunes? ALL the time. 70% of the time, a dual element sorceress can't use her other skill. She is stuck with just one, and that's that. Around 70% of the time, it's like the 40ish skill points I put into my skills don't even exist.

    It would be one thing if the amount of elemental immunities was equal to the number of other immunities on Hell difficulty. But they aren't. Elemental immunities are found on almost ever monster in the game. I think I am more or less right when I say that the game is pretty much staged against the sorceress :/


     
  13. Hector

    Hector Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Far from weak, I actually think Sorceress is the strongest class in the game - it even sounds like a troll thread, sorry! Immunities are just a minor annoyance and several builds can work around them no problem.
     
  14. Noite Escura

    Noite Escura Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    My point is that sorcs can have 2 attacks and still do as much damage as other classe do with fully synergized attacks. A poisonmancer will have trouble against Poison/Physical immunes. Sure it can break with amp and lower resists, but even then it will kill slowly than a sorc. Skeleton can kill PsnIs, but usually it's the merc who produces the first corpse to be exploded. Without the merc to kill fast and without Might aura they will strugle to kill. Even a 30 point Orb will kill faster IMO. Zeal Palas can kill almost every monster with it's fully synergized attack, but guess what? My Meteorb still clears an area faster, because a Zealot have to resort to an elemental weapon on switch to kill PIs, and with that they lose speed and can't leech. My Meteorb 60 point fire attack kills faster than Zeal (no Grief though, so maybe one can disagree) and my backup 30 point Orb kill faster than the Zeal with elemental weapon. The same goes for Poisonmancer, the 60 point Fire tree kill faster than the 60 point Poison Nova and I think the 30 point cold tree kill as fast, if not faster than the skeletons (with merc support). The difference is the meat shields that the necro has, but then again, it has issues with some areas (like Maggot Lair os doorways, where only 1 skele can attack each time). Sorcs on the other hand have teleport and can spam their skills from far away. Dual elemental trappers don't come close to the power of a dual sorc. Hybridizing the Assassin with kicks will take even more power away, as you will have to equip melee oriented gear. Druids are even worse.
    Considering about 25% of the monsters are immune to each of the elemental skills, we reach the conclusion that 75% of the monsters won't be immune to your main skill and 50% won't be immune to both of your skills. I guess that bothers me less that it does you.
    The only thing a Sorc lacks againt the above classes (except Paladin) is a minion that could tank and make her life easier. I suspect they tried to compensate for that when they made the stronger mercenaries in LoD. And while I think the sorceress is Ok the way it is, maybe i would introduce some changes if I could. For example adding a physical damage component to Meteor and maybe Telekinesis would make the game a bit more interesting



     
  15. Ghoulz

    Ghoulz Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Hammerdins.........

    hammerdins.....

    erm...

    Nope, I don't think Blizzard tried very hard.


     
  16. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    You say you think the sorceress is the strongest class in the game. Could you elaborate on that perhaps? What are your arguments on this to support that claim? :)

    And no my friend, like I said, this is not a troll post :)

    I would be trolling if I said that the sorceress can't kill fast. Speed killing is what the class is all about, and I definitely agree that the sorceress can kill much faster than probably any other build out there, all else being equal.

    I agree they can clear areas and kill monsters way faster than a zealot or a barbarian etc. And you are right about that. However, sometimes it's not about killing speed, but rather FUNCTIONALITY. Restarting the game because you can't kill the 3 ancients because one of them is immune to both your elements is not functional. And when it happens again in your second game, that's just not right.

    Killing speed is not the be all end all of this game. Functionality also counts for a lot.

    Single immunities are not a problem, they are killable. But on top of the fact that 80% of all monsters in hell have an elemental immunity, giving BOSSES dual immunities is simply a slap to the face. And some bosses we actually need to kill in order to progress within the game. And this is quite a serious issue for people who either play single player, or simply prefer solo play instead of grouping up (like me).


     
  17. zrk

    zrk Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    Look, i made a demo, a single element sorceress, in a p8 game, with nothing but her merc to kill immunes. But it is still among the fastest clearers, given this huge limitation. All you need is a decent merc and the problem is no problem at all
     
  18. Soulless

    Soulless Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    A sorceress can own Hell with the help of a mercenary, and I never said she couldn't. A sorceress can be very powerful with a merc. But that's exactly where my problem lies, partially.

    My argument is not that a sorceress is weak, my argument is down to the fact that immunities are too numerous in Hell, resulting in a sorceress that NEEDS and RELIES on a mercenary to do her job, whereas other classes do not due to the fact that other classes do not need to deal with immunities as often as a sorceress. And a sorceress needs to deal with immunes all the time.

    Well in any case, I was thinking a lot for the last few days and I think I came up with a build that could solo Hell without a mercenary and be able to kill dual immunes. It's not exactly a tri-elemental sorceress in the classic sense, but in any case I'll see if it works out, if I get there at all.


     
  19. Aaron Eh

    Aaron Eh Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    You could hold and Infinity scythe too (rich option). Or for the poor shop a wand of Lower resist.

    Or, maybe you are playing in the wrong areas, head to the ancient tunnels or mausoleum and see if you think the immunities are more or less favourable.

    For what it's worth I agree with you Blizzard makes a merc is almost mandatory.
     
  20. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo II staged against the sorceress? (is the sorceress weak?)

    your argument is that you refuse to play with the tools that the game provide you with (mercs), then say "omg I can't kill every little thing I see with my spells and that sucks".

    My advice is, go play a poison dagger necro, THEN come tell me how "unfrequent" poison immunes are. Or go do countess runs on a zealot and tell me how long you take to kill those always physical immune ghosts (yes, they are there more often than you think). Or take a mercless hammerdin for a spin in baal's room and tell me how you deal with wave 2 of baal's minions using nothing but blessed hammer (yeah, if you switch to grief and use smite or zeal you're no longer a hammerdin, right? you're a dual element which sucks)

    You seem to be under the impression that elemental immunities are more "common" than the others. Go take a look at the monsters you actually kill, and you will see they are immune to something else. Just to make my point even clearer: chances are, EVERY SINGLE MONSTER IN HELL is immune to something. The monsters that just die to your elemental spells are very likely to be immune to physical/poison/magic but you don't take the time to notice that because they die in 0.5 seconds

    get a damn merc or put your skill points in 2 trees. sorcs are not underpowered, matter of fact, I'd say they are a bit above the other classes, really, because they can skip immune mobs with teleport, which other classes rely on a piece of gear (enigma) to have
     

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