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Diablo 3 Dev Naming and Drinking the Haterade

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Flux, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Flux Submitted a news story

    Diablo 3 Dev Naming and Drinking the Haterade

    Blue post from the B.net forums about a big complaint thread that was deleted, then reinstated. You want to read it now, don't you? First off, here's the Blue reply, from a different thread created to complain about the deletion. Diablo 3 Dev Naming and Drinking the Haterade:

    So you're deleting 20 page long topics again huh?

    Not that I'm surprised since you did this already several times. Anything unconvenient and it gets deleted. Do you think the 20 pages and 300 upvotes get erased like that as well? Oh man this company... instead of fixing the problems they rather delete the undesired feedback. Hilarious.

    Lylirra: The original thread has been restored and can be viewed at its original link. While the OP does violate our posting guidelines, the following conversation is mostly constructive (albeit heavily moderated), so the thread in its entirety should not have been removed. For that I apologize.

    As a general reminder, however: harassing or attacking other posters (be they Blizzard employees or other players) is not okay. Full stop. Doing so will likely lead to your post/thread being locked or removed outright. In some cases, depending on the severity of what's been said, your account may even be penalized. That's not ideal for you or us, so working to be as constructive as possible -- even if you're voicing a dissenting opinion -- is always a good tactic to strive for.

    A good thing to remember when participating in a discussion on these forums is to "attack an idea, not a person." Be passionate, be argumentative, but focus your conversation on ideas, designs, concepts, mechanics, etc. Not people.

    Kyrone, if you'd like to reduce the risk of further critiques requiring such active moderation, I encourage you to remove personal attacks from your arguments. They are not needed for your feedback to be both valid and relevant. [source]http://diablo.incgamers.com/blizzard-tracker/devthread/us/15700314848[/source]


    It's got to be good, after that intro, right? Click through for the deleted, then un-deleted OP, and prepare to be... underwhelmed.



    After reading Blue post, I was all primed for the OP, thinking it would be some really flaming fury! Original complaints! Sadly, it's just another "I don't like Trials because vague reasons" gripe-fest, but one that kicks off by naming a bunch of D3 devs and calling them idiots for making design decisions this one guy disagrees with.

    And Blizzard in general, if that is even possible after all the insane fails they did with this game.

    You have a franchise with millions of fans around the world and handle it the worst possible way.

    Updates with minor changes nobody asked for, while ignoring the real and valid feedback, all every 3 months.

    No communication, nobody knows what is going on, but at this point I think not even the dev team has a clue what is going on either.

    Patch 2.1.2 was supposed to ship mid December but then you realized that the devs will be on holidays if major bugs had to be fixed?

    Sad enough that you lack developers confident enough in their skills to not mess everything up every patch, but are you telling me a company like Blizzard can't even set up a proper timetable and you didn't realize that Christmas is around the corner? Very professional.

    But that enhances the opinion I already got when seeing Josh, Wyatt and Travis talk about this game. Josh shows fake enthusiasm and speeks about "awesome loot" in every 2nd sentence...all I could think was "Sorry Josh, the loot system is pathetic, itemization is aggravating and 90% of all items are nowhere close to awesome."

    Travis seems like he could fall asleep every second when he speaks about D3. No passion at all.

    And Wyatt...oh man, I have never seen another developer so out of touch with his own game. But sure, it's nice finishing a GR level 18. Prime example why the game is failing and dying now. Devs don't play their own game and don't listen to the hardcore players who do.

    Also, why we even have community managers at this point is beyond me. All they do is post on ridiculously silly posts every now and then. The highly rated posts never get any attention, everything is ignored.

    What I can simply not understand is why you are wasting the potential of such a great franchise. If the lack of revenue is the problem, simply add microtransactions.

    * More stash space.
    * More character slots.
    * Unique transmogs.
    * Unique pets.
    * Small xp/leg droprate buffs for a limited amount of time.

    You have so many fans who would pay for that, and this would allow you to put more resources into developing actual content. If that is not a win/win situation then I don't know what is.

    Step your game up Blizzard, your reputation is going down the hill.[source]http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700233837[/source]


    I hope you had some good cheese to enjoy with that whine? As for the complaints... who knows? There's nothing specific in terms of bad thing or solution; just a bunch of "stuff sucks and stuff and Devs are nubs" which is why the thread got deleted. The irony is that similar complaint threads (which always seem to be posted by players with about 5, or else 5000 hours played) exist constantly and are not moderated. This one just got snipped since it named specific devs.

    That's kind of distinction without a difference, since saying "Trials suck" vs. "trials suck because Josh/Wyatt/Travis" makes zero difference in content, but the later goes against the "calling people out" rules in the Battle.net forums and gets deleted because of that.

    On the larger issue... what's the point in such ranting? I guess some people enjoy it, or want to join in as a break from their 8 hours of play every day, but what benefit does anyone think Blizzard gains from such threads? Like the devs were just waiting around for someone to call them idiots, and that's the secret word that will launch them into action? They're working on the game as much as they can and think they're making improvements. Obviously not everyone agrees, but childish name calling doesn't add value to arguments, at least not once you're past junior high. (Unless you do it with some real style, of course.)

    Agree or disagree?

    Continue reading the Original Story
     
  2. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    I don't understand why this post is being a reason to delete the thread at all? Yeah, the guy is aggrevated and doesn't hold back on expressing it clearly. But he never left the level of expressing his viewpoint and drifting off into outright accusation just once. If anything, he even tries his best to stay constructive throughout ventialting all the anger accumulated.
     
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  3. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    venting, not ventilating. sorry.
     
  4. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    ???

    Ain't the core of constuctive criticism in his post that from his perception Blizzard is just pacifying the community and not really listening to issues pointed out and ideas liked by their customers?
     
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  5. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    I mean that from my viewpoint, what Flux called "childish name calling" is nothing more than pulling up examples, he derived his opinion from. Thus even that is criticism upon how the devs communicate themselves and the game to the community, which can also be argued for as being constructive in nature.
     
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  6. jEj

    jEj IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, sorry subby but the complaint doesn't seem as whiney as the Incgamers article in response :p I suspect it's all a bit tongue in cheek as the mention of, "Drinking the Haterade," is Kardashians worthy.

    Also, silverfang is more on target with what was actually occurring, imo.
     
  7. sneakytails

    sneakytails IncGamers Member

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    This is actually a good post for those forums, complete sentences, punctuation, and paragraphs.....oh my!

    Calling out the devs by name was a mistake, but other than that, he's not doing anything out of the ordinary for the general discussion forums. He did make some points, which automatically puts the post miles ahead of most others on that forum.

    It's also fairly easy to go borderline insane doing rifts until you can't take it anymore, that makes us posters a grumpy bunch.
     
  8. ADest

    ADest IncGamers Member

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    He named Josh, Travis, and Wyatt... But nowhere do I see anything insulting in the post? Calling someone out of touch with a video game, saying they lack passion about said game, and calling them out on fake enthusiasm and need to drop tag lines every other sentence isn't an insult last I checked.

    Definitely deleted without reason. Pretty much agree with the poster. D3 is generally one big waste of potential. Yes, that's debatable. What isn't debatable is the FACT that this game has been chock full of mistakes, errors, bad implementations, and faulty game mechanics since early beta.

    It's also a fact that Blizzard doesn't really listen to feedback. All you see on their websites is FEEDBACK, FEEDBACK, FEEDBACK, feedback wanted! And boy do they get it. I've never frequented the forums for a video game (or anything, really) as much as I did with D3. And wow, the feedback that came in on D3...

    So many good ideas, so many incredible threads, and we end up with RoS... So yeah, I had been holding out hopes that RoS would do for D3 what LoD did for D2, but RoS erased those ideas. There's never going to be the much needed retooling of D3 at it's core. All we'll ever see is numbers being realigned and reassigned. The community asks for a redesign and the developers instead constantly market these adjustments. And they wonder why the forums are constantly bombarded with negative feedback?

    It's a vicious cycle. It's not going to break anytime soon, though. The haters are gonna hate till the end of time, and Blizzard is not going to retool. Instead they'll go on presenting the haters with new transmogs and dyes, and feed the cycle of hatred. I know, I was a hater. I used to crack a rib in rage everytime we asked for the holy four of main stat, life, crit chance and damage to be reworked and instead we get weapons with a chance to cluck like a chicken or laugh when you die. I swear, it's like Blizzard was purposely taunting us! I felt personally attacked.

    Then I realized it really is their game, and for whatever reason they just weren't going to retool. Ever. Yeah, they would pretend they were 'working on it' but they just wanted to keep their haters as customers. That's when I decided to walk. Away. For a while. But like the earlier poll showed, no one ever really leaves Diablo. Diablo leaves you. So until they turn the servers off, I still catch the bug. I play Blizzards game. I'll (likely) buy the expansion. But in the long haul, the entire experience has left me feeling alienated and used.

    I will only ever buy two more Blizzard games (well, technically 3)at this point. Legacy of the Void, and the inevitable final D3 expansion. (The 3rd being the console version of all D3 games) I don't even know the name of Blizz's Titan filler game, and have lost all interest and excitement in their games. I used to hang onto their every word during the SC2 & D3 announcement days, these days I usually log in and find I didn't even know there was a new patch released between my last log in and today...
     
  9. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    Now ask me, why I can't get up the motivation to complete writing out this skillsystem design concept of mine, although I'm quite sure that it has developed into a coherent framework, both D3 and its future successors would definitively benefit from? (No, don't! That question was rethoric and already answered upon with ADests contribution.)
     
  10. Blanchard

    Blanchard IncGamers Member

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    What the OP said offered nothing constructive whatsoever; he essentially called out names in the void without giving any substance or examples to validate his claims save for the timetable one. While that one point may have held water, Blizzard also gave a technically valid reason for not wanting to patch that early, that being that they wouldn't be around to fix bugs during the break after things went live. With the success of the game and the fact that the playerbase conflicts on essentially every topic in existence in regards to it I had high hopes for more productive discussion. Sadly it's hard to gleam much of anything useful from this post.

    You are not providing useful feedback when call out developers who you don't know the daily routines of nor what they have contributed over years of working on a game and instead take what seems to be a shot in the dark based on "how they talk about the game" and insult them on their own forum about it. Instead they could have, I don't know, talked about anything game related sans the vague possibility of microtransactions. He clearly doesn't know much about the devs, insinuating they don't play their own game (they do, a lot...just watch the Thursday streams) and even going as far as to talk about just what flavor of bad he deems each individual one.

    I'm not sure what you thought we could constructively change with OP's post...the personality of the developers when they're in front of cameras? How incredibly useful to us as gamers.
     
  11. Turbojugend

    Turbojugend IncGamers Member

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    imho, complaintees often times forget that devs are not solely responsible for everything, that there are many people surrounding them and that decisions are made in plenum.

    the people working on (any) games are very much more likely to know what works (i.e. balance?) and what not, since most of us are not progammers, designers, etc., and/or work for Blizzard, and mentioning specific people, who are just "the voice" of D3/Blizzard/EA/DICE/blah, ... is in general unjustified.

    if any game would be that crap, then "those" people complaing about everything, that DO play the game nonetheless, would be better of NOT playing it instead of trolling forums and puking anger.
     
  12. Michal

    Michal IncGamers Member

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    I disagree with the microtransactions. I don't want microtransactions and am thankful to Blizzard for not implementing them.
     
  13. Michal

    Michal IncGamers Member

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    If they are easethetic only - maybe. But in that post, 3 of the 5 items requested impact gameplay directly - more char slots and stash is definitive advantage (e.g. I can save up more backup gear in HC so when I die I'm ready to go etc.). Let alone drop rate buffs.

    I like the current model where I pay the sum up-front and I get everything with it (PC gamer once jokingly called it "buy to play"). The content patches are gravy.
     
  14. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    Have you really not gotten, that it's the way of communicating with the community being criticised here? Only when it comes to microtransactions is he actually talking about the state of the game itself. When analyzing the text for its message, there's one sentence standing out clearly as the framework the critique is set in, overshadowing both what's written before and (, especially immediatly) after: "But that enhances the opinion I already got when seeing Josh, Wyatt and Travis talk about this game."

    Atop of openly saying, that it's the perception he's derived from the communication open to him, it implicates that he's fully aware that it's just such and does not have the whole picture, but turns all around it into examples perceived leading to the development of his opinion. He indeed hasn't validated the examples through further argumentation, though, but that wasn't necessary for the point he adressed to begin with and does only turn them into personal attacks themselves, if taken out of context.

    Also don't forget the forgetfullness of memory regarding details, especially when boiling with rage. The timetable issue brought up you're seeing as the only valid point of criticism, is probably the only thing that was fresh in his memory while writing the text and I'd isolate it as the last straw that broke the camels back. The rest sounds more like he was just remembering the resume he took out of the respective communications at the time they've crossed his path, intertwined with perceived changes over time, with obvious difficulties differentiating those. Only logical, as an outburst of emotions runs its course and naturally lacks the structural base necessary to clearly differentiate the two.

    Again: What's critizised, is the overall communication between developers and community, essentially telling the devs that a common ground in communication hasn't been reached yet and they still appear to live in an ivory tower and developing the game besides the needs and wants of the community.

    (From my own standpoint I'd have to add, that I'm still of the opinion that the devs have not even understood the arpg-genre and are wrongly reducing it to the core of primary hack'n'slay gameplay and itemization as result. I'm also not seeing any vision to the games longterms development at play - at all - and the design ideas regarding the skillconcept, which isn't really even a skillsystem, since the strike team went at it previously to release, are deeply routed in tactical/strategical thinking and strongly lacking on design decisions born out of the thought processes behind the roleplaying perspective.)

    That he mixes up the role with the person is a valid argument, though. On the other hand it's something again that 90% of all people are only thinking about, when it pertains to criticism addressed at themselves. As such I would say, it should be pointed out to him directly as an offer to help out in his self-awareness. But when positioning oneself in public :) The role), should just be ignored and not taken to heart :) The person). Insisting on the difference being there and lacking the view on the person himself (, which is understood intuitively by most, as we only get to see the role taken on anyways, ) and the effort he's brought up and into the project, is the same mistake Roper made and had to step down for and only helps escalating and spreading the emotions already out in the open.
     
  15. adastra

    adastra IncGamers Member

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    I've been a total bastard on the bnet forums in the past. I get passionate about the game but, then I reread it later on and realize what a D I'm being. I hate myself when i'm being that guy.

    The guy calling the pitcher and umpire names.

    Anyhow, I've slowly come to my senses. And, the truth is, if i had a life, I would be putting SO much energy into caring about what happens with the game direction.

    But, I do love Diablo ... since Diablo 1.

    I can honestly say that I appreciate anyone who puts there energy into making it a better game; even when the attempt fails ... at least they work at it.

    Besides this game has come a LONG way since D3Vanilla
     
  16. adastra

    adastra IncGamers Member

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    Hey Flux, you wrote about new seasonal legendary items in a thread earlier this past week, "and presumably a dozen or so new legendary items."

    Is this true? Will there be new legs in this season that weren't in the PTR?

    that would be a really nice surprise. I know they weren't planning on doing the new sets and the skull grasp in this patch. But, was there actually talk of other unknown items?
     
  17. DaTruth

    DaTruth IncGamers Member

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    My issue with his statements is this whole "out of touch" concept people keep using. Every time I see a thread somewhere about some issue, I come away realizing that some fairly significant portion of the player base will be pissed no matter what the developers do. Where someone may say they are "out of touch" because they don't do the things they like, another person may say they are implementing the things they want. Since there's no way to please everyone, there's no way to be "out of touch". My general opinion is that they often try to develop systems that fit into a middle ground, for better or worse.

    The issue I have with what he says about the Devs is that it is insulting to say a person is out of touch with their community, or that they lack passion. I've seen enough interviews with Travis to know that lack of passion isn't the problem.

    It may be true that they still haven't found the best way to communicate with the community, but again, there's a catch 22 in everything they do. Threads like that one don't do any justice because they are so blinded by their anger at that moment that they fail to seem rational, and the moment I start seeing name dropping, I generally stop reading, as it's counterproductive. Saying, "I wish they would communicate in X manner", or "I wish they would find a way to show their passion better in interviews", would better express that they want better communication without implying that the devs don't care. That's not going to actually lead the devs to listen to what you have to say.
     
  18. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    By the way: May I call you Lilyrra? I don't know, if you indeed are Lilyrra and am fully aware, that it is much more difficult to deduct a person correctly from their style in argumentation and prefered formulations, than it is to deduct their mentality out of underlying motivations expressed, but she's the only person I know of matching your style of expressing your thoughts I've come across in the community.
     
  19. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    I can relate to the concept bugging you, but in my opinion it's an expression of the feeling of not being listened to, up to the one told to be "out of touch" not showing to care enough in trying to understand the teller. Perhaps better said, it's expressing the feeling of not being accepted as a person on eye level. The same "out of touch" often comes up on the topic of reasons for a broken marriage, for example.

    That his formulations are of a harsh tone and would have come out much better, if he'd slept a night or two, before formulating his emotions, to rationalize what he's saying, can't be denied. But as you've said it yourself, it's the blinded by anger part: It's not in the nature of emotions to be rational and to ask for flowery formulations during an outburst of anger is, please excuse my openness, absurd up to being hypocritical. The rational thing to do would rather be, to accept the outburst as what it is and adept your view on what has been said in relation to the situation at hands, to not get fixed on the details, getting aggrevated yourself and missing the core of what's being screamed out. And without getting the core, it can't even be deduced, if the general point of view expressed through the outburst is actually reflected upon, or not, which would be the base for any dialogue clearing the air being possible.
     
  20. Silverfang

    Silverfang IncGamers Member

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    Sorry... Lylirra I've meant.
     

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