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Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Drixx, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. Drixx

    Drixx IncGamers Member

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    Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    So,

    From reading what everyone has mostly been saying since this forum opened, and looking back at what folks have said when the subject of Diablo 3 has come up from time to time previously, I thought I'd throw in an "opposition" viewpoint on the matter. I really plan to address two prevailing comments:

    1.) People who say "I don't want it to be an MMO / Pay to Play game"
    2.) People who say "I want it to be the same, or have X feature the same"

    To understand the MMO pay to play model, you just need to adjust your viewpoint of what the payment is for. An MMO constantly grows and changes (hopefully for the better). There's always new content, skills, quests, items, etc... being developed. Part of the montly fee to play goes towards paying the staff who continuously move the game forward. This constant state of development does have it's problems (the game is /never/ bug free for example), but it brings with it a lot of benefits. For one, you don't get locked into playing the same story repeatedly. With an MMO, there's always more storyline being revealed. You also have way more patches, more frequently, that address issues like balance, etc...

    The other thing to realize is that you're paying for entertainment time. I play Diablo 2 and WoW. I play D2 about 10-12 hours a week on average, and WoW somewhat more like 20 hours a week. Some weeks it's more! For the most part, that time is very enjoyable. So ... the cost per hour of entertainment for me is something like $0.18 ...

    Let that sink in. A trip to the movies with my wife would yeild lets say three hours of entertainment. Tickets are $12 each, so that's $24 if all we do is get tickets without having a meal out or any concessions. There's also likely a gallon of gas to figure in, so another $4. So $28 for six total hours of entertainment. That's $4 per hour. That means going to the movies is 22 times more expensive in terms of cost per time. That's staggering.

    The bottom line for MMO's is that yes there's a fee. BUT ... You would have to play for less than four hours in an entire month for it to be more cost per time than a trip to the movies. Most people play for vastly more time than that. Even if you only play 20 hours a week, you're getting a very solid bang for your buck in terms of entertainment costs.

    The monthly fee for an MMO is both reasonable and worthwhile. How many times have we all lamented and wished there were more patches for Diablo 2? If Diablo 3 works on a monthly fee model, that will not be a conern again. To me, it's worthwhile to pay to play.

    So, that point addressed ... moving on to #2.

    I for one would like to see and Diablo 3 that is a totally new game experience. Start with World of Warcraft as a base, and then break the mold in every area. Blizzard over the years has done a lot of firsts. I would love for Diablo 3 to be a totally new concept in gameplay.

    I do NOT want anything from Diablo 2 gameplay wise honestly. I don't mind some references to D2 stuff ... be it with items carried over into D3 or some basic classes retained. Other than that, let's see something fresh and new. I don't want my "endgame" to be farming the same boss 500,000 times in order to collect every item in the game.

    I VERY MUCH would like to see the game be playable single player if one chooses. I know that's completely outside of the realm of current MMO game design but Blizzard has never played by everyone else's rules before ... why should they now?

    I guess the bottom line for me is this. If Diablo 3 is just Diablo 2 with new graphics, a new storyline and other than that it plays and feels the same... I'd just as soon stick with Diablo 2. When it comes to the Diablo series, I don't think Blizzard can give it the "Starcraft 2" treatment and have it really succeed.

    This post is, of course, just my opinion. I'd love to see what other people think of it though...
     
  2. bodis

    bodis IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    I personally disagree, I would like to see D3 like D2, I like the idea of farming the boss 500,000 times to collect grail, I dont like playing online with other people, as I personally dont have all time in the world to play and will be left behind very quickly, and what I hate most is ladder resets, where you just have to start over.

    Just my thought :)
     
  3. mgcemir

    mgcemir IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    well, imo, steven segal on big screen is irreplaceable.
     
  4. Merick

    Merick IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    $12 for a movie ticket!?
     
  5. phrozenX

    phrozenX IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    Yup, that's what it costs here as well.

    If they do make D3 an mmo, there are a few things they need to do to make it work:

    1. It must be fast passed with fairly easy leveling. Many people play d2 because there is little to no grind involved. It also seems that mmo's are getting more grindy every time one gets released. I for one, don't have enough time these days to sit down for 6 hours to gain one level.

    2. Tons of items... tons. MMOs don't tend to drop a decent amount of loot to keep the item finder happy. Sure you get a decent amount of vendor fodder, but not that many uniques/sets/rares.

    3. NOT based on wow(basing it on WoW was mentioned earlier in the post). Sure WoW is successful, but the graphics don't lend itself to d2. It needs a much darker atmosphere and overall better artwork especially on the characters. One of the main reasons I do not play WoW is due to the graphic style. They aren't bad per say, but too me they look like poorly drawn cartoons that are out of proportion.


     
  6. Drixx

    Drixx IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    When I said based off WoW, I meant as a starting place. I would expect the world to be much darker. BTW, I've put in something like 40 or 50 hours so far on level 93 for my Blizzard sorc and have not yet leveled ;p

    As for items... that would be the hardest part really if they make it an MMO... balancing wealth.

    @Bodis - Essentially what you're asking for is a graphics overhaul and a new set of storyline quests (or ACTS) for diablo 2. I'm not sure that would be the best bet for Blizzard.

    There's an MMORPG out on the market right now that's free called Minions of Mirth. It's being developed by a couple people under the company name Prairie Games. If interested, you can google it. The graphics are not great by any stretch. What is appealing about it to me though is that you can play solo on your computer without anyone else.

    Or you can connect to a server and play with people. It's completely up to you... and only the very toughest things in the game require more than solo play. You can level faster and have a social aspect if you play with other people, but it's not required to advance and enjoy the storyline at all.

    If Blizzard can somehow make Diablo 3 a game where you can play solo or go online, that would be the best of both worlds IMHO. I'm just not sure that Diablo 2 with a new storyline and some whitewash (graphics) is what would be the best to me.

    That said, I'm incredibly excited that D3 may be a reality soon, and no matter what it is, I'll most certainly be buying it.
     
  7. phrozenX

    phrozenX IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    At least it didn't take 15 months to reach level 93.
    :p


     
  8. skizmer

    skizmer IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    The problem with making Diablo 3 an MMO like that is that it becomes a time sink. You can be godly in D2 and only play for maybe 10 hours a week. I played WoW and to stay on top of the game (which is what I like to do because I'm sort of a video game perfectionist) it would take 30 hours or more a week. You had to go to raids every other night, then you'd have to farm materials for raids. I just don't want to see D3 turn into a huge time sink, it needs to stay something that you can play for an hour then walk away from and not feel like you've missed anything. The fact that D2 isn't an MMO is probably the reason it's stuck around so long. That's my 2 cents.

    And one more thing, I didn't like having to be in guilds like on WoW to be good. D3 needs to stay something you can play by yourself while online and still be just as good as everyone else.
     
  9. WhiteAlien

    WhiteAlien Banned

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    As I already posted in another thread WoW is too cartoony, looks like Tiny Toons for kids and made with basic graphics for masses, so it works on almost any PC. It was their cash cow, but I hope they wont make same thing with Diablo. Main thing is to make dark scary ambience with high quality graphics.

    I'm against MMORPG. There are many of them already, like Guild Wars, Final Fantasy to mention few. I just don't get the principle to stay in queue to kill ONE monster !! But it could be MORPG with limited number of players till 12 or 16 per game like in D2 with 8pl.


    For DIII I would like to see more interactive environment. For example we could:

    - burn trees with meteor or firewall
    - could broke (not just open) chests/barrels with feet, hand or some weapons
    - explosions could use complex particle physics so the debris always flow in random directions and on impact could do some damage on environment (brun grass, make holes etc)
    - arrows could stack in bodies, ground or walls and depending of material make deep or shallow holes or just bouncing away
    - killed monster bodies could decompose more slowly and in more complex way, lets say depending of environment (for ex. in desert they dry out, in rainy forest they slowly disappear in ground and decompose)
    - when killing monsters you could chop off body parts - legs, hands and if he is still moving chop of head.
    - you could see real damages done on armors, for ex. bumps from mace hits or holes from arrows and of course depending of material used do different protection of wearers body.
    - could dig holes in ground or in wall (just for fun :laugh)
    - more blood, blood stays on your helm, armor.

    In theory that all will be possible in near future with new physics engine. nVidia promises control of 8million particles in future. Who interested can read article here
     
  10. Hey

    Hey Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    I don't have much to say on this issue, but I would hate to see them ruin D3 by making it P2P online. I like playing battle.net, but I refuse to pay real life money for a virtual game. If it comes down to it, I'll stick with Diablo 2.
     
  11. mince pies

    mince pies IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    A part of me wants it to be an MMO because of the P2P and better servers, regular updates, etc. but another part wants it to stay traditional to the Diablo series so far. I'm afraid I'm on the fence with this one :S
     
  12. Treguard

    Treguard IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    Hi, i'd just like to make a quick suggestion on what i'd like D3 to be like, i think they should keep the same style of play and graphic style. I'd like to see something with like starcraft 2 graphics or probably even better. It should be a MMORPG but not like wow, more like DARK AGES but with the Diablo style.

    I think it's time to move it into the MMORPG genre for me as i have been playing wow for a long time now but will definately give it up and retire to play D3 as its where my RPG saga began!
     
  13. Aranock

    Aranock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    Against the ideal of an MMO. Personal opinion. If you are an MMO fan, i'd skip this post.

    Few reasons why-

    Diablo has always been a great storyline RPG game to me. MMO's do have story, it's true, but from my experience being an ex. dark age of camelot (2-3 years) wow (1 year) everquest (6 months), i can say that MMO's seem to lack in the storyline department and focus on the gameplay...or the storyline impact is substantially less. Addicting as hell mmo's are, but with everything else that comes with an MMO(those who have quit playing them know what i'm talking about *coughs* destroy's your life in MANY ways)= not worth it to me. Seen a few good friends become A- 40 lbs heavier, B- lose girlfriends C-become completely antisocial and D- generally become hateful/angry and increase stress

    Turn the Diablo universe into an MMO means adding endless gameplay hours just to be considered Mediocre. I agree with the previous comment about doing 1000 runs to get that prize. Nevertheless, a bigger world would be a nice touch

    An MMO is usually never a single player game, and that's what Diablo is to me. Considering wow brought players from most MMO's genre's, so too came their bad habits and lack of mature conversation (lollerskates etc.)

    Personal speculation would be that they shelved the D3 MMO version when blizzard north dispanded, perhaps due to the arrival of world of warcraft.

    In the end, those who play MMO's now and are a fan of MMO's will of course want to see d3 become an MMO since the diablo universe is superb. I loved dark age of camelot (especially superior RvR Center Keep taking!, and 3 realms with realm specific classes that share general characterists but different skills I.e Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade), always considered it a mmo diablo type, but even over time i grew very tired of it. Seems to be the going trend of mmo's. I'm sure one day people will become bitter and hateful of wow just like evercrack, starwars galaxies, etc. I just don't want to see that happen to my favorite storyline.

    Nevertheless, i'm playing whatever they put out. If in MMO version, will likely just make a goal for myself, like achieve the highest lvl then quit, as MMO's never have an ending. "this is the game that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some gamers, started playing it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue playing it forever just because this is the agme that never ends...." type of deal. Whatever it is i have high hopes it will be spectacular.

    -My 2 cents for the evening.
     
  14. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    I think you are seeing things up side down when it comes down to playments. wow need monthly fees because it is an MMO. If they build diablo smart, they won't need monthly fees because they won't have to constantly update. If they make diablo III, they have to think about how they can build a game that doesn't need monthly fees.
    One thing to consider is how the can keep server stress to a minimum. One thing that can help is go low on graphics and go low on player count per map. Each additional bird the flies around has to be monitored and send by the server. Ditch those and you will have less stress. You can probably think about other things.
    btw, note that unbalancing things aren't that much of a problem either and don't need constant patching. Right now, hammerdins are to powerful, though lots of people play them and have fun. If 1.12 comes out, hammerdins will be nerved though other classes will become the new strong class and people will still love playing them. You can't ever balance everyting, and that isn't even needed. Just make sure that you have enough patches to keeps things going. Just refress the ladder every 0.75 years and have a new patch every 1.5 years. That way you have the time to get into the patch and explore the possibilities, though you don't get stuck in a pattern. You'll have to keep on being inventive.

    Now I think diablo III should be like diablo I and II, just like fifa 2008 looks like fifa 2007. If they break with the diablo idea - and I believe a MMO might do that - then it won't be diablo III and they should come up with a new name. If it's diablo III, I think the have to keep the following aspects.
    1. Play stile. The game-based play stile of diablo is good. If they change to MMO, you will lose this play stile and it will prevent people from doing what they want. If people want to play single player or solo, they should be capable of doing so. If you want to play in a party, this is possible aswell. You can argue that 8 players is a bit low, and if they manage to get enough good builds up and running, perhaps they can go higher. Though going MMO where you can play with 100 people if you want just isn't what I think about when I think about diablo.
    2. possibility. Just look at diablo 2 and what you see is possibility. Has anyone already counted the number of build that are played at this moment. For amazons alone, you get 4 main builds and if you count in theme builds, you can easily come up to more then 10 for amazon only. Now go and look at what weapons you can use and you will see the possibilities diablo II offers. Bow alone you have 4 top end bow, count in some little cheap alternatives...
    And don't forget crafting, runewords, magic items, rare items, set items, imbue...
    boss running, alvl 85 running, forge rushing, key running, dclone hunting...
    I'd hate to lose all those possibilities.
     
  15. Markerst

    Markerst IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    I too played WoW and liked the game a lot in most aspects. I quit it for several reasons though:
    I don't like the battle system: it is too static compared to Diablo 2. When you fire a spell it's just slugging it out with your opponent, No dodging, zigzagging or plain running. In Diablo you cast fireball and your opponent can evade the effects. The only exception are area spells in WoW but that just ain't enough for me.
    It is indeed a huge time sink. To play the better loot area's you have to be in a group, and you must play some instance which costs you about 3 hours to complete. Hardly possibilities for taking a break in that time. In diablo 2 you can do a boss or a pitrun in a much shorter time.
    The first person perspective in WoW is too common now in games. What is wrong with the view from above as in diablo 2? If Blizzard would put in a zoom option in D3 I'd be perfectly happy with that aspect of the game.

    I'm not against MMO in general. Drixxx is perfectly right in stating that it's downright cheap for the fun you can get from the game. I also like the trade and profession system in WoW.
    I'm afraid however that reason number 1 and 2 that made me quit are inherent to an MMO.

    Another thing to consider is that Blizzard would be unwise to develop competition for their biggest cashcow by putting another MMO on the market. It could be more like a successor, but that would mean we have at least a year or three to wait.
     
  16. WhiteAlien

    WhiteAlien Banned

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    If you want to stick witth these possibilities then you have to stick with D2 forever. I dont think in DIII will be Act1 with lvl85 pits where you could farm elite socketed items. DIII will be new story.

    I agree with 1 point. DIII must be solo playable as DII is. That is all point in D2 - ONE hero to go fight through hell. Of course possibility to play in groups of 8 is nice too, but I just can not imagine doing some kind of raids of 40 players at once to clean area or kill one monster. Can you imagine 20 hammerdins, 10 blizz sorc and 10 cs amas lol. If there are 40 palas playing imagine how many auras you can have active. LOL. If they go MMO way they have to completely forget original Diablo playing principes, classes, skills, item types etc. and write new game with little D2 story. I don't think they will go that way.



     
  17. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    I wasn't referring to the fact that I want to keep on pit running in diablo III. They should come up with new an exiting things. I were merely pointing to some possibilities that you have in diablo II. And that they should try to keep up the number of possibilities with lots of new and fresh thing.

    Take fable for instance. I've played the game 3 times on single player and I have enjoyed the game each time, though each time I ended with a build that is almost the same as the first one I made. Fable is a good game, though it lack replayability simply because I can't make enough good different builds.



     
  18. trashX

    trashX IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    why does mmo automatically mean pay to play?
    and also frequent patching is no unique to mmos, the only reason they patch wow so much is because everyone i playing it
     
  19. Drixx

    Drixx IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    Aranock ... for most of us who are frequent SPF members (like myself) Diablo 2 is also the game that never ends. If I'm gonna be playing a game for 7+ years, I'd really love to have storyline at the end that I didn't do seven years earlier. To me, this is the biggest draw of an MMO.

    I've never "Beaten" Diablo 2. In the sense that I've never collected the grail, I've never taken a character of each class to Pat/Mat, let alone Guardian. There's still tons of goals I have in D2.
     
  20. Aranock

    Aranock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Diablo 3 as an MMO, a different viewpoint

    Drixx,
    What i was implying by never ending was regarding the specific titles storyline. In Diablo 2, there's the start of the storyline, and then a finish. Multiplayer was an option in D1 and D2, not primary emphasis.

    This along with the constant expansions that come with MMO's, adding new areas and new information constantly basically means an endless battle, whereas in Diablo 2 we all know the storyline, it's just a matter of obtaining all the items you want with the various classes you want. Of course if you want to play every class- every way possible- and get every item, then d2 would definitly be never ending, however most people just like adding to their character and having the ability to log in, do Runs for 30 minutes or so, and maybe have a chance at scoring a Unique/Rare/Rune. I have no problem paying a fee for a game like was said before (of course it would be nice for it to be free now that company has struck it rich!), but i'd prefer they make a great storyline as their primary focus as they have with the other diablo's so far, rather then change it up to focusing on the multiplayer experience that is MMO.
     

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