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Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by mouseman, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. mouseman

    mouseman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    Which should be used in Diablo 3? Or should they implement a whole another skill system?

    I loved the Diablo 1 approach: you could find or buy books and get spells. The skill tree is a good approach, too, but it tends to make characters "builds" instead of unique characters. Could this be improved? Could we learn something from Diablo 1?

    Which way do you want this to go?
     
  2. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    Here is my idea:

    Get rid of trees becasue it leads to skill point hoarding, obsolete lev 1 skills, and cookie cutter designs (and less importantly, a few wasted skill points for prerequesites). I would like to see a gem facet design where you have a gem representing each skill/spell and each facet is a component of the spell you can invest points into. So for example, chain lightning: You can drop points into the following facets:
    one that increases the range of the lightning bolt(s)
    one that adds more damage to the bolt(s)
    one that increases the number of bolts
    one that increases the AI of the bolt(s), for instance allowing bolts to bend around corners to hit monsters
    one for increasing the jaggedness of the bolts such that they have a greater chance of occupying more space and thus hitting more monsters.

    The brackets are used for bolt(s) because you may decide not to invest any points into the facet that adds more bolts, so you could have one bolt only that is very intellegent and practically tracks it's own targets (if you maxed out the facet for AI). Or, you could have one bolt that does the most possible damage by dumping every point into the damage facet. If you put points into making more bolts per cast, then right off the bat you have spent points so you can never have the most possible damage. If you put points into all the facets, you get many many slightly jagged, barely intelegent, low range bolts that do tiny damage. It is totally up to the player to design exactly how he/she wants the spell to behave.

    So this system would be in place for every single spell. I know, it sounds like a lot of work to design, but players would get the spells to their exact specifications. More control means fewer complaints imo.

    Another example: A cold sphere spell which is made up of a sphere of black outer space in which you can see random stars and galaxies. It emerges from the end of a staff and slowly wobbles towards the enemy. So the facets you could put points into include how far away the outter space region is (thus, more cold damage as it approaches absolute zero), how many spheres wobble out per cast, piercing ability of the cold damage for breaking immunes, longevity so the spheres can be used almost as gaurds for long durations, and so on.

    I really hope the skill trees don't make a come back.
     
  3. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    Fallacious. You will have builds as long as you have choosable skills. Diablo 1 and unique characters shouldn't exist in the same sentence.
     
  4. raleigh_565656

    raleigh_565656 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    D1 was this- Max fireball+Energy shield. D2 was basically the same but with more complexity. There will always be popular builds with or with out skill trees. In D1 everyone could use the same skills which really didn't make much difference in the class you chose. D2 the classes played a huge part in the skills you had. If a D1 style was used then there should be class specific attributes or skills that only that class has access to.
     
  5. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    D1 had stat caps, which eventually make a difference.

    Repair Armor- losing max durability is yuck

    Disarm Traps- Traps aren't using strong enough to justify it (when you can't dodge them)

    Recharge - losing max charges is yuck


     
  6. amusingtugboat

    amusingtugboat Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    if you watch the gameplay vid, the tree is going to be like wow. Most skills said level 4/5 or level 1/1. Not sure how to explain it but its like wow. I like diablo 2 since there are many different types of chars but of course the main stream ones.
     
  7. FattyMcGee

    FattyMcGee Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    I would like to second the ideas in this post. Would make for amazing gameplay! Just think of the pvp possibilities!

    However, I don't think Bliz would develop something as complex as this for the skill system (it was repeated over and over again how they wanted to make this game simple enough for the casual player to play successfully). I suspect amusingtugboat has a more accurate guess about what the skill system will look like.

    -f



     
  8. abigmoron

    abigmoron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    This is so awesome.

    Are there any games that do this now?



     
  9. korialstraz

    korialstraz Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    Someone place this guy with Blizzard! If such a system would be implemented succesfully (which I belive Blizzard to be capable of) it would add so much variaty and uniqueness and not all the same cookie cutter builds like D2. :worship: :thankyou:


     
  10. Swiffer

    Swiffer Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    The only overall difference each class saw with the stat cap was how powerful their spells could be. Fireball, Mana Shield and Stoneskin was all you needed, and all most characters went for.


     
  11. tetracycloide

    tetracycloide Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    The real problem with 'uniqueness' in D2 was not the skill trees, although the way the synergies were set up did encourage min-maxing a spcific skill and/or set of skills.

    No, the problem with D2 was immunities on mobs. It doesn't matter how uniquely you have set up your awesome lightening spell if 1/3 of the foes you face are completely immune to it. This was the problem with any PvE build in D2, you could not rely on a small specilization in one damage type and there were a very limited number of ways to aquire two or more reasonably damaging damage types at once for any given class.

    There were only two major builds that didn't suffer from this sort of thing all that much and they were hammerdin/smite and zealot/smite. My hope is that blizzard can balance 5 classes with 3 or more builds each that have the same versatility and stopping power as the D2 versions of those builds and in order to do that they're going to have to take damage type immunities off the table.
     
  12. HRP

    HRP Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    If they're going to go with skill trees again, they need a lot more than just 10-12 skills per tab and less restrictions in regards to prerequisites and lines of skill choices.

    I think lower-tier skills should be able to get more points dumped into them than higher-tier skills. For example, let's say the Witch Doctor hit level 24 and gained some access to some new, more powerful skills but could instead continue to upgrade his Locusts if he preferred them as his method of killing. There'd have to be more to it, but you get the idea. I think it would open up a lot of abilities.
     
  13. voraginous

    voraginous Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    I used to wish Diablo 2's skill system was more like Diablo 1's, but now I wonder how I could have ever felt that way. I think it was just nostalgia for the environment of D1, rather than for its mechanics.

    D1 was very simplistic: you could attack or cast spells. And the builds were very cookie cutter. There was one fire spell that got 90% use: fireball (firewall probably made up most of the rest). One lightning spell anyone ever used: chain lightning. By higher levels it was fireball, chain lightning, teleport, stone curse, mana shield on all sorcs/rogues.

    Compare that to d2 where each class has a few distinct viable builds that are completely different from each other. zeal/fanat pally is different from conviction/vengeance is different from hammerdin. The javzon is diff from the bowzon (with multiple elemental distinctions inbetween). The meteorb is different from the blizz sorc and the cl sorc. Thus skill trees add exponentially to the replayability. Some amount of cross-class bleedover is good; but too much and everyone ends up using the same optimal set of skills, like in Diablo 1.

    I think skill trees are an acceptable mechanic, but I would prefer a new system with some innovation. I think they are incorporating some WoW type mechanics into D3, which seems fine, but I have some ideas of my own:

    This idea sort of blurs the line between classes, but I think the restrictions are harsh enough that it actually creates more playstyles by enabling more possibilities; instead of decreasing the number of playstyles by destroying diversity and letting everyone choose every skill (which results in a single uber class).


    I. Dual Classing


    A. Each class has 2 favored classes it can take skills from at double (or triple or whatever) the cost in skill points. a) Either you choose your 2 classes when you make the character, or b) the favored combinations are set in stone from the beginning (like in Magic The Gathering where Red opposes White and Blue but favors Green and Black). Maybe in our case Druid favors Barb and Sorc and Sorc favors Druid and Assassin. Just for example..

    Maybe you can increase the costs for dual classing skills further up the tree, so level 1 skills cost 1 extra skill point, level 2 skills (gained at level 6) cost 2 extra, level 3 skills (gained at level 12) are 3 skill pts extra etc..

    B. You can choose to take a skill tree from another class but sacrifice two of your own. So you can be a barb with 3 skill trees to choose from, or a barb/druid with 2 skill trees: one from the barb, one from the druid. Again the classes you can dual class with can be either a) chosen at character creation or b) set by Blizz beforehand

    It'd be hell to balance, and its probably nothing like what Blizz wants to do, considering the whole idea behind Diablo is to have separate classes, but I thought it would be pretty fun.

    One way to increase the dividing lines between classes is to limit max player statistics in each stat (while also making energy not worthless and making str and dex more useful than the bare minimum needed for items.) This has the effect of reducing the number of classes and variants possible, which I don't support, but it might be necessary to limit the huge influx of class combinations made possible in a dual classing mechanic.

    As far as stats go energy needs to be made useful, since right now its worthless. Vit needs to decrease in importance from being the number 1 stat, and str and dex need to be more important than enough for equipment and enough for max block respectively.

    I also agree that using synergies, and perhaps a pyramid (making it so low level skills can be bumped to higher ranks than high level skills) keep low level skills viable and make investing in them worthwhile. So maybe you can bump teeth up to lvl 20, but bone spirit only goes up to level 5. Stuff like that.
     
  14. mouseman

    mouseman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    I was referring to the mechanics that you could get skills from tomes or maybe even got trained for money in towns (one point for every level).

    You could get stat points for leveling and then you could go to town and train a level. Plus you could find tomes, which could be universal, class restricted or even skill restricted.

    It was such a thrill going to catacombs with low level character and hoping to find those bookcases..
     
  15. Arkardo

    Arkardo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    I would keep it like it is now, but make it so that each skill tier has a maximum amount of skill points that you can spend in it. This makes hoarding less necessary and encourages early spending of skill points.

    Also, I'd like to see monsters have maximum resists of 95%, with the ability to stack, just like players do. For example, a Venom Lord would have 120% poison resist, effectively capped at 95%. You can still hurt him some with poison, but lowering his resist below 95% will be very hard to do. This way, poison skill characters can still kill Venom Lords, albeit far slower than other characters.
     
  16. pantherus

    pantherus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    I find it amusing how many people seem to assume (particularly in the class speculation threads) that the classes will have 3 skills trees again just like D3...
     
  17. Maedhros

    Maedhros Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    Regardless of how varied a skill system is, there will always be builds that are MUCH more effective then others. I liked the structure of the WoW skills.
     
  18. korialstraz

    korialstraz Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    I just need to quote this again, and to let you all know something...

    If you can't wait for D3 to come out, and just love the idea of with system, you may want to check Sacred 2. It will have a system that will be similar to the one described above. If you want to know more, read this, just scroll down to about 3/4 of the page. For those who are unfamiliar with Sacred, combat arts is the same as skills in D2. Also you may want to whatch the video about the game on this page.

    Sorry for necroing this thread, but I feel it's worth it :nod:


     
  19. Swordslash

    Swordslash Banned

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    Re: Diablo 1 skill system vs. Diablo 2 skill system

    There was only one good thing about the D1 skill set. Teleport. Every character could get it. In D2 that was a clear flaw, because as we saw, every character still ended up getting teleport handed to them, but through a very hard to achieve (read - dupe-spawned) armor.

    Teleporting aside, they'd be smart to examine the pluses and minuses of Diablo 2 and Titan Quest, and come up with a system based on the strengths of both (and avoiding the flaws of both.)
     

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