Defensive Guide

Tib

Diabloii.Net Member
Defensive Guide

Hey folks,

I wanna put together a guide to identify the best/worst defensive skills and how they actually help against specific attacks... I'm in the stages of preparing a spreadsheet with all of the defensive possiblities... I'll tack on the attacks and how they are affected by each defensive skill.

Skills that prevent damage completely
Dodge
Avoid
Evade
Weapon Block


Skills that reduce or slow damage
Bone Armour
Energy Shield

I'm not sure about these fitting into the category since they're avoidable by the enemy...
Bone Wall
Bone Prison

Any comments? When this list is ok, I'll go throught the conventional attacks and how they are affected by each defense above...
 

Myrakh-2

Diabloii.Net Member
There are a LOT more skills. Cyclone armor, Frozen armor, Natural Resist, Iron Skin, Fade to name just a few; I'm too lazy to go through all the skills.

Also, things like Clay Golem are actually defensive measures, as well as many curses (sorry, I'm a bit biased towards necros; other classes have defensive skills as well).

Some skills even fit multiple categories. Teleport is a prime example: it is an offensive skill since you teleport your minion(s) along with you, so you can place them right in front of the enemy, take a step back and watch. It's a movement skill because you can use it to travel. And it's a defensive skill because you can teleport away from attackers.
 

Tib

Diabloii.Net Member
All very good examples, and all have been thought through. The top list (most important at the moment) represents only what will 100% (if successful) diverge damage from your character.

The rest work on the principal that a good offence is a great defense. They WILL be accounted for once I get a good base spreadsheet to place the top items in...
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
I guess we can exclude "the best defense is a good offense" type of skills :lol:

IMO the best defensive skill is BO, but I thought about it for just one minute :rolleyes:
 

helvete

Diabloii.Net Member
Holy Shield should have a mention here, it was beefed up quite a bit with 1.10. A fortitude pala with a decent exile and a good level HS is quite hard to hit, eand when you do hit, you hit the shield due to his liek 1-frame block!!

The problem I always face with my palas is when they DO get hurt, because I never seem to put enough in vit. But BO has helped this lately... Guess with some better small charms, it'll work better.

By the way, is a Zealot better off with "wonderful small charms of 20 life" or with some skiller charms? I'm having second thoughts about my offensive auras charms.
 

Tib

Diabloii.Net Member
helvete said:
Holy Shield should have a mention here
Frankly, HS was the FIRST thing on the list, and the last thing to be removed before i posted. Reason being, it doesn't do much but increase your defense rating and improve block. That's not what we're trying to do here. We're trying to find out which skills stop 100% of the blast. We'll work out the ones that partially stop it later, such as the sorc's and necro's defence skills.
 

Ax2Grind

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm so confused (like Vinnie Barbarino)

Tib said:
Frankly, HS was the FIRST thing on the list, and the last thing to be removed before i posted. Reason being, it doesn't do much but increase your defense rating and improve block. That's not what we're trying to do here. We're trying to find out which skills stop 100% of the blast. We'll work out the ones that partially stop it later, such as the sorc's and necro's defence skills.
<TABLE cellSpacing=10 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top background=0>
</TD><TD vAlign=top background=0>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]Weapon Block
Required Level: 12
Prerequisites: Claw Mastery [1]
[/size][/font]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Passive Effect: After developing this skill, an Assassin wielding two Claw-class weapons can use her blades to deflect incoming attacks, thus giving herself a defensive edge without using a shield. (Requires two equipped Claw-class weapons.)

Weapon Block allows Assassins to use two Katar (or Claw Weapons) while still having Blocking. Assassins that use two Katars will want to invest heavily in this skill. Even a 1% Increase in Blocking will provide a great amount of protection. <TABLE cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>Level</SMALL>[/size][/font]</TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>1[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>2[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>3[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>4[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>5[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>6[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>7[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>8[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>9[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>10[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>11[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>12[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>13[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>14[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>15[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>16[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>17[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>18[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>19[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH><TH>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>20[/size][/font]</SMALL></TH></TR><TR><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>Chance To Block +%[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>26[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>32[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>36[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>39[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>42[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>44[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>46[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>47[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>49[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>50[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>51[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>52[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>53[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>54[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>55[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>56[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>56[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>56[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>57[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD><TD align=middle>[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]<SMALL>57[/size][/font]</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


I don't understand how WB makes it in when it's the same principle as the Holy Shield you removed. It increases the chance to completely negate an attack... by blocking it. Isn't that the same thing WB does?
 

Tib

Diabloii.Net Member
Point well taken. I suppose i thought of weapon block as a way to increase block and HS as a way to increase def, but at a second glance, they do appear to be the same thing.
 

Superhal

Diabloii.Net Member
you might want to limit the scope. i just argued in the zon forum that a valk provides 100% defense against all attacks through proper placement.
 

Ax2Grind

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm not sure about that

Superhal said:
you might want to limit the scope. i just argued in the zon forum that a valk provides 100% defense against all attacks through proper placement.
If Cyclone Armor makes it, then that argument is moot. Willowisps don't care what's in front of them as their lightning attack goes through a target and continues to strike those behind it. As such, 'proper placement' can - in fact - draw enemy fire to you when it otherwise wouldn't have. Not very defensive.
 

Superhal

Diabloii.Net Member
Ax2Grind said:
If Cyclone Armor makes it, then that argument is moot. Willowisps don't care what's in front of them as their lightning attack goes through a target and continues to strike those behind it. As such, 'proper placement' can - in fact - draw enemy fire to you when it otherwise wouldn't have. Not very defensive.
that's why you place the valk at an angle rather than directly between you and the monster. through proper placement, i'm immune to all missile, melee, and even aura attacks with all -60 resists, under 40% blocking, and under 900 defense.
 

Ax2Grind

Diabloii.Net Member
Easier said than done

Superhal said:
that's why you place the valk at an angle rather than directly between you and the monster. through proper placement, i'm immune to all missile, melee, and even aura attacks with all -60 resists, under 40% blocking, and under 900 defense.
Let's put that to the test. Make a character with just those kind of stats (non-Amazon can use Harmony) and we'll see if you survive in hell Baal runs. I'm taking odds against you, just so you know beforehand. :D
 

rykros1987

Diabloii.Net Member
Superhal said:
you might want to limit the scope. i just argued in the zon forum that a valk provides 100% defense against all attacks through proper placement.
If your speaking of the dim vision thing it actually pretty much protects vs all except boss/unique. Max dim vision and spam it ahead of ur path it'll have a large area effect(may need skill points to get best effect) and will make everything nearly useless especially ranged monsters except when you attack in melee to where the ones you attack can see you. It also disables all them monsters that resurrect minions lol. especially useful in closed area where doorways can be your death sometimes.
 

Ax2Grind

Diabloii.Net Member
That is why this is a defensive guide

rykros1987 said:
If your speaking of the dim vision thing it actually pretty much protects vs all except boss/unique. Max dim vision and spam it ahead of ur path it'll have a large area effect(may need skill points to get best effect) and will make everything nearly useless especially ranged monsters except when you attack in melee to where the ones you attack can see you. It also disables all them monsters that resurrect minions lol. especially useful in closed area where doorways can be your death sometimes.
We're assuming you can't prevent them from getting in your face, not keeping them from doing so. Diversions and defenses aren't the same thing: if your unit can't take a single hit without being crippled then your defenses are worthless, you must rely on other things - such as diversions.
 

rykros1987

Diabloii.Net Member
Ax2Grind said:
We're assuming you can't prevent them from getting in your face, not keeping them from doing so. Diversions and defenses aren't the same thing: if your unit can't take a single hit without being crippled then your defenses are worthless, you must rely on other things - such as diversions.
oh ok that would also point the zons valk defense as a diversion wouldn't it? I'm not quite sure...but isn't a diversion a form of defense?
Edit: Also I wouldn't call blinding the enemy so they can't swarm you and picking em off while their buddies are crippled a diversion...beacuse diversions I dont think cripple tihngs they distract things. but in this case it cripples the enemy monster team work thing and makes em fight without the complete group being able to do anything. I think it'd be more of a disruption.
 

Tib

Diabloii.Net Member
I think that we must first come up with a good definition, then figure which skills apply to which definintion, LOL... anyone wan'na take a stab at it?
 

Ax2Grind

Diabloii.Net Member
Starting with...

Tib said:
I think that we must first come up with a good definition, then figure which skills apply to which definintion, LOL... anyone wan'na take a stab at it?
Any item, skill or ability that doesn't increase damage, add damage, create damage, or otherwise result in harm to a monster and gain experience from the eventual outcome, killing said monster, is not offensive. Anything which is not offensive must be considered defensive, as there are only those two options.

This definition can be expounded on as the need arises, for I've just now written it on the fly, so it likely doesn't include everything. BTAIM, the following would apply:

Valkyrie can, and will, do damage: it is an offensive ability with defensive benefits of drawing enemy attention away from other targets.
 

helvete

Diabloii.Net Member
I didn't fully agree with your definition, as Holy Shield adds smite damage (offensive) cold armors add cold damage (offensive) and valkyries and mercs do damage... however they are quite essential to many many builds.

I'd vote for a definition that says something like "This skill does not go in the 'offense is the best defense' category".

That being said, I personally most often go for the "kill the f00kers before they kill you" option when it comes to defense. And I rarely play melee characters, so most of the time, I get by nicely. With 16 skellies and 20 revives as "defense".
 

Generator Of Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
I think we should just add another cathegory to "defense", named "diversion"..

After all, if your enemy is distracted, he isn't attacking you, and that IS defense...
 
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