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Damage reduction (Blasphemy)

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by Nathanjk, Feb 18, 2004.

  1. Nathanjk

    Nathanjk IncGamers Member

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    Damage reduction (Blasphemy)

    There is something about damage reduction that I have taken as fact in the past that only now do I understand is false. This is that damage reduction in % terms is alot better than DR in nominal terms. This just isn't true. I wont say that one is better than the other but I will point a few facts.

    1. DR in % has a cap and I do not believe it does in nominal terms.
    2. Most of the monsters in hell do less than 100 damage and rely on fast attacking or attacking in numbers. This is an area where nominal DR works better than %.
    3. Most of the non boss monsters that do over 100 average damage do not exceed 100 by much. DR in % terms does not have a huge advantage here. For example Minions of destruction in hell do 109 average damage with one attack and 114 with thier other attack.
    4. Baal does around 200 average damage on attacks.

    For PvP I dont know how things work as well so I will not comment on that. I will say that nominal DR is better for most monsters while it is still good to keep some % DR for the big monsters.

    The reason I say this is how much more valued DR in % terms is. People socket items with super expensive bers for 8% instead of sols for -7 damage. Also people dont see the DR on the gladiator bane as being significant. I use a G bane with a Sol for a total of 26 nominal DR which really helps cut down on the damage I receive along with many benifits that are not on shaftshop. Also the everlasting mod on ammys is almost ignored when 25 dr is a huge amount. One last thing I would like to point out is that many people dont have a problem with dying on bosses.

    I expect to get flamed but if people look at the numbers they will see that % is not always better than nominal DR.
     
  2. AFBrat

    AFBrat IncGamers Member

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    You won't get flamed by me. I noticed this quite awhile back in 1.09 when I was using a perfect damage reduced by ...Skin of the Flayed One and a Circlet of Life Everlasting (damage reduced by 24), I remember getting hit in melee by monsters in NM Bloody Hills/Frigid Highlands and taking 0(!) damage. Of course elemental damage was working. I was about equal to or slightly lower than the monsters there. I was amazed. I started a thread about this way back then, I can't remember the exact topic. By the way, I think a perfect ethereal (or near) Skin of the Flayed one would be awesome when upgraded since it has self-repair.

    Damage reduced by X is underrated, and so is Glads Bane. I suppose Magic damage reduced by X is underrated also in favor of resists.
     
  3. Wuhan_Clan

    Wuhan_Clan IncGamers Member

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    Ditto for absorb.

    Some see % reduction or % resist and their eyes light up. However, popular items such as Strings and Gaze also provide nominal magic dmg red as well as leech so the use of these are more then justified.

    In PvM, i don't even bother with % reduction. People use it in PvP because characters inflict more dmg then monsters. Its just been over-glorified.
     
  4. Rascargil

    Rascargil IncGamers Member

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    i actually thought of combining numeral and percentage dr when i was battling pure smiters.

    String of Ears + Stormshield = 50% DR
    2x perfect Nature's Peace = 22 DR
    XXX amulet of Life Everlasting = 25 DR
    perfect dr Gbane = 20 DR
    XXX circlet of Life Everlasting = 25 DR

    now you can socket Gbane and have some in circlet too to add some sols.

    just a fancy thought.
     
  5. Dambreville

    Dambreville IncGamers Member

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    Has there been a post or anything about the combination of items that would reduce damage the most?

    I imagine you might be able to completely ignore a great deal of damage with some of the item and rune combos out in the the expansion right now...

    Quite interesting; would be nice if someone did the math on this both for pvp and pvm terms. That would be a massive project I guess.
     
  6. Boooyakasha

    Boooyakasha IncGamers Member

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    I have made some fun chars that wearing purely DR items. It goes up to 180+ damage reduced and I am immortal towards ordinary monsters' attacks. Only boss pack can give me some scratches :)

    Good thing is no worry about hit recovery, Amplify Damage (only applies after the DR). Bad thing is I need to sacrifice almost everything just to wear the items.

    The best char to do this is Wind Druid, combine with Cyclone armour, you are quite indestructable while still having good spells to use.

    BTW the heaviest physical damage dealer is the cow, think it is about 190.
     
  7. Amiral

    Amiral IncGamers Member

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    you can have max (of what i can figure) 176 regular dmg reduce, and thats like a barb (2 hand sword has 3.)
     
  8. Chaldan

    Chaldan IncGamers Member

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    Actually, Baal can do over 200 damage from his melee attack
     
  9. Vizier

    Vizier IncGamers Member

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    You guys should post this over in the statistics forum, I imagine there's some guys there that should be able to put formulas on to all this.

    I ended up putting a shaft/gaze on my act 2 mercs back in 1.09 hell cow games and that made them pretty much unkillable through their 50-60's and beyond. That's 50% damage reduction, which would take almost twice that in nominal equivalents for cows. I never realized that the damage dealt was in that range, but it makes sense.

    However, Mephy dropped me a Shaft last evening so I let my Level 84 A2 HF merc wear it since he seemed to need one visit to Ormus when going toe-to-toe with Meph as I usually do with my Blizzard sorc. He was wearing Duriels Shell before which maxed all his resists but now he lasts longer. I had read somewhere during 1.09 that bosses do something between 2-400% ED vs mercs and I think that's just towards physical, and not elemental. Anyway, my merc lasts about 50% longer now against Meph thanks to the Shaft. (he uses Tal's mask and Tomb Reaver)

    Just for kicks let's say Meph does 200 damage, and does 200%ED vs mercs. That's 400 dmg per hit against a merc.

    With just a shaft, that reduces damage by 30%, so (200dmg x 200%ED) *(100%dmg-30%Damage)DR = 280 damage

    With 7 sol runs in armor for a nominal -49 Damage (and I assume this is applied before the merc ED bonus, just like amp dmg affects stated above) it would work like [(200dmg -49 dmg) x 200%ED] = 302 damage

    So there's a crossover point at which nominal DR is not going to help as much as %DR, even though it does do some good I'll let you guys take it from there.
     
  10. Nathanjk

    Nathanjk IncGamers Member

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    Well if you read my original post I said that they both have their uses. I would recomend mixing them both up for optimal DR. VS bosses I guess I dont have a problem staying alive so for me the % doesn't have too many uses I usually die when getting hit by alot of smaller guys at once. I also wanted to point out that socketing equipment with sols is just barely worse if at all worse than socketing with bers.
     
  11. ender11782

    ender11782 IncGamers Member

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    If (starting dmg - damage reduced)*(1 - Dmg Reduction %) = final dmg, it looks that the optimal mix of dr and dr% is for the percentage effects to be roughly equal. For example, if you have 10% DR and - 15 dmg reduced by, facing a physical attack of 150, then the addition of 1% DR is worth roughly the same as another -1.22 dmg reduced by:

    With 10% DR and -15 dmg reduction: (150 - 15)(1 - 0.10) = 122
    With 11% DR and -15 dmg reduction: (150 - 15)(1 - 0.10) = 120
    With 10% DR and -16.22 dmg reduction: (150 - 15)(1 - 0.10) = 120

    So essentially, the idea is that percentage change in DR% versus percentage change in pre DR% (but post damage reduced by) numbers are the critical comparison in deciding whether to tack on more DR% or dmg red. by equipment. The sticky part is that this formula is dependant on the anticipated physical damage, which of course differs by opponent. So it might be necessary to change your optimal equipment based on the toughness of monsters (essentially, DR% is worth relatively more against harder-hitting monsters).
     
  12. Cloud_Walker

    Cloud_Walker Banned

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    Ok it took me a while to figure all of this out for some reason...

    At damage above 100, DR% is more effective. For damage below 100, nominal DR is more effective. At 100 damage dealt to you, both are equally effective.

    Most monsters in the game have an average damage below 100 (it's probably below 85 even, but let's stick with 100 to play it safe). Given this, the average monster damage for the entire game is 50. At 50 damage dealt to you, nominal DR is twice as effective as DR%. So, most of the time, when you compare that Gladiator's Bane with that Shaftstop, you can imagine the "Damage Reduced by 15-20" on Glad Bane being instead "Damage Reduced by 30-40%", and then start to compare mods (or vice versa... change Shaftstops 30% to 15 nominal if you are used to dealing with things in nominal DR).

    This doesn't take into account act bosses and superuniques and unique and champion packs. I think it's safe to say that some of those do above 100 average damage, but only in Hell. In 1.10 I would say I encounter act bosses, superuniques, unique monster packs, and champion monster packs about 20% of the time (seems reasonable, no?). Also playing it safe, lets say all of those 20% non regular monsters do in fact deal above 100 damage on average. So this means throughout the whole game, you would be better off using nominal DR vs 14 out of every 15 monsters you encounter (20% of the monsters in 1/3 of the difficulties = 1/15). If I had to choose one type of Damage Reduce, based on this, it would be nominal.

    However, most people spend most of their time in Hell difficulty. Also, some people seek the optimum mix of nominal and proportional DR. For the Hell difficulty part, we can lose the 1/3 factor, changing it to 1 out of every 5 monsters dealing 100+ average damage (keep in mind these are conservative numbers, favoring DR%). From this, we can find the optimum mix. Since 1 out of every 5 monsters will require DR%, we should have 1DR% for every 4DR. Meaning, you put that DR 20 Gladiator's Bane on, for the optimum balance, you need DR 5%.

    Recap: Even with numbers boosting the importance of DR%, the ratio of DR to DR% being 4 to 1 tells me Damage Reduced by X is 4 times more valuable than Damage Reduced by X%. This is also only in Hell difficulty. Considering the whole game, DR is fourteen times more effective (on average) than DR%.

    That's PvM.

    As far as PvP goes, you can rely on DR%, as just about all of the time your opponent's damage will be above 100. I wouldn't even begin to figure out the optimum PvP mix of DR and DR%, because I don't even want to try to think about the average physical damage dealt by all players to all players.

    I also don't want to get into elemental damage and Magic Damage Reduced by X because trying to figure out average elemental damage from monsters over three difficulties with resist penalties... for four elements... would be very impractical.





    Other input: I have a Frenzy Barb that I put a small amount of MF on to do Travincal runs and I noticed that he takes very little damage from the Hydras that I inevitably get surrounded by. I couldn't figure out why they weren't doing me much damage (about 4 damage per bolt) until I remembered this topic. I looked at my gear and saw Magic Damage Reduced by 12 on String of Ears, and Magic Damage Reduced by 10 on Skullder's Ire. That, coupled with 75% fire resist, made Hydra fire look like raindrops. So I must say it is effective...
     
  13. lextalionis

    lextalionis IncGamers Member

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    The way I look at it, DR% is capped at 50%. I presume you are trying to build some sort of tank. So anything beyond that is useless. What you should try to do is put together some So starting list the % DR gear:

    SHAKO
    Rockstopper
    Vampire Gaze
    Stormshield
    String of Ears

    List the only skill in the game that reduces PD by % = FADE

    I'm sure I'm missing stuff. List the Damage Reduced by mods: I can't think of anything but Gladiator's Bane, but I know there are more.


    Most people wouldn't think of an Assassin as a Tank, but I think you could make one heck of a tank out of one. Fade, Possibly WB, CoS (increases Defense), DTalon, Cobra Strike, these are excellent tanking skills. Not to mention SW and SM. If you go for a bunch of +shadow skills stuff, and also remember +6 Shadow Skill claws on weapon switch you can have a ridiculous level of those purely defensive skills. You might want to use a Guardian Angel Armor or other + max resist gear, some absorb. But I think at that point, a big very big part of the tank would be socketing sols and looking for gear good at reducing damage, simply because with a high level of FADE, it does you no good to go after % DR, but you can still increase your DR by getting Damage Reduced By Gear. They also don't need a stormshield so you could go with something with a good blockrate and defense that is much lighter so you can put points into Vitality instead of Strength.

    I really do think there is room for a disgusting Tankassin build, and I think -DR would be a big part of it.
     
  14. Cloud_Walker

    Cloud_Walker Banned

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    I was actually thinking about gear for a tank character, and my first idea was to put it on a concentrate barb, but it would also work well on a Dragon Talon sassy.

    Gear:
    Gaze
    Gladiator's Bane
    Gerke's Sanctuary
    String of Ears
    Dwarf Star

    The rest can be whatever you want. Gladiator's Bane can have a combined DR of 26-36, and MagicDR of 29-38. Gaze and String each have DR%, MDR, and good leech. Combined DR% for both: 25-35. Combined MDR for both: 20-30. Dwarf Star gives life, fire absorb, and MDR of 12-15.

    The best you can get out of this gear is Damage Reduced by 36, Magic Damage Reduced by 83 (wow!), and Damage Reduced by 35%. Additional bonuses include Cannot be Frozen from Gladiator's Bane, which frees up a spot for a dual leech/resist ring, as well as enormous defense. With Gerke's you have 79% chance to block along with 20-30 resist.

    You can also socket Gaze, Glad Bane, or Gerke's with IAS jewels, Ums, and/or Sols as you see fit.

    You have your gloves spot free for 20% IAS or 3% life steal or +2 to Martial Arts or a combination. Boots are open for anything from Tearhaunch to Shadow Dancer. Amulet spot is also free, and I personally would use Highlord's Wrath, barring that, Cat's Eye. And you have your choice of weapon, probably being Chaos or Bartucs (BotD for concentrate barb).

    The Tankassin
     
  15. phooker51

    phooker51 IncGamers Member

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    Thats some interesting number crunching, but I think it's a bit misleading. The main problem is that 80% of the game is rather... easy. Wearing %DR takes the edge off alot of attacks, but more importantly, it gives you a big cushion when you run smack into a pack of cursed, extra strong, extra fast, fanat archers or the like. For me at least, thats where damage reduction (of any sort) really matters. I guess what I'm saying is, for me, that 1/5 of hell you speak of is precisely where DR is the most important, especially as a HC player.

    Nevertheless, still a very interesting discussion, and I'll definately pay more attention to straight DR on my gear from now on. :)
     
  16. ender11782

    ender11782 IncGamers Member

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    Remarks: DR% reduces damage by a %, -dr reduces by straight number. To put -dr in % returns is dependant on the amt of damage being received, so consider dmg 120: 1% of 120 is 1.2, so 1.2 -dr = 1% DR% in effectiveness. Or, 6 -dr = 5 DR%. Essentially, for any anticipated avg damage, multiply the dmg by .01 to find the -dr equivalent of 1 DR%.

    Also, while you could avg out the damages of minions and bosses, you would be better off if you could wear a different set of eq for each if you'll primarily be facing one or the other, (e.g, if you're running meph and not concerned about the other critters on the way). OTOH, you also shouldn't consider dmgs which are ineffective against you (e.g, if nobody with damage less than 120 is bothering you enough to merit DR equipment, don't factor them into your average).
     
  17. Evanta

    Evanta IncGamers Member

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    I think you guys are missing out on part of the equation. It's not the normal monsters or even act monsters that are scary, it's usually the might/fana aura/amp. dmg boss monsters that are very scary. I'm pretty sure they do abt 200+ dmg per hit, and it is in this case that you need DR very badly. And I dunno abt you guys, but they seem to spawn far too often.. And you can't run if they spawn extra fast.
     
  18. Cloud_Walker

    Cloud_Walker Banned

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    True enough, boss enchantments can be tough.

    Extra Strong: This can lead to average damage around 150 for most monsters. But this is only for the unique monster (could be mistaken).

    Cursed: Amplify Damage lowers DR% by 100. It does not effect nominal DR. It still reduces damage, but it means a difference of -100% DR and , say, -85% DR. It loses it's effectiveness by a factor of two. For example, you have zero DR%, and are dealt 100 damage. With 15% DR, you are dealt 85 damage. When cursed, with zero DR% on equipment, you are dealt 200 damage, as you have -100% DR. When cursed, with 15% DR, you are dealt 185 damage, because you essentially have -85% DR. As you can see, when cursed, DR% only reduced the damage you took by 7.5%. Nominal DR, on the other hand, doubles in effectiveness when cursed. Now, this is a huge assumption, in that if it is untrue then this whole paragraph and the numbers in my first post are untrue as well, but if nominal DR is calculated before DR%, then it works even better when cursed. E.g., with zero DR% on equipment and 10 nominal DR, you are dealt 90 damage. When cursed, that same 100 damage gets reduced to 90 and THEN gets doubled due to -100% DR, dealing you 180 damage. It blocked 20 potential damage when cursed, and 10 when not cursed, remaining at a 10% reduction.

    Fanaticism/Might: DR% is more effective here, as it is essentially the same as Extra Strong (when average damage increases to 100+, which is safe to assume in Hell difficulty).

    So, we can add monsters with Fanaticism/Might/Extra Strong to the list of what DR% is needed for. But my 1/5 was a generous number and I think should remain the same. Okay... I'll give, let's increase to 1/4. This means that the optimum combination of DR and DR% is 3 to 1. That 20 DR Glad Bane needs 7% DR for an optimum mix. However, the lowest DR% possible higher than zero is 8%. This means using a Ber rune, which most people cannot get their hands on. So, the next step is to use a String of Ears/Rockstopper/Rockfleece/Verdungo's for 10% DR, but for the right mix, you need 30 nominal DR. 30 is a large number for someone just throwing it on for a little extra help. Plus, as it has been said before, striving for high nominal DR requires great sacrifice in other areas.
    What I'm saying is that theoretically, the 3 to 1 mix of DR to DR% works best, but just isn't practically feasible with the equipment out there. SO..., a more practical ratio would be 2 to 1, or even 1 to 1 at the lowest, but this still means that nominal DR is equally if not more important than DR%.

    *breath*
     
  19. kaervek666

    kaervek666 IncGamers Member

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    Most monsters in Hell have an elemental part to their attack, so having reduce magic damage by XX is a good idea. the amount tends to be about 60-80 i think and isnt affected by any boss mods afaik.
     
  20. stupidgreen

    stupidgreen IncGamers Member

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    i was confused about the way nominal DR works on mercs, and how that damage is distributed to them from act bosses. Does my merc get more damage than I do from the same enemy assuming no DR, or equal amounts of DR (either nominal or %)
     

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