D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

[wizAdept]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

the whole 1.10 and its synergy + new runewords made the game suck balls. Good meter for this is that all the pvp leagues in 1.09 pretty much stopped existing.. or they have rules not to have enigma and this and that and oh this one too. So much new crazy stuff came along in 1.10 which made the gameplay awful.

Or maybe you are oblivious to the many leagues which have formed in 1.10+ and 1.11+

The old leagues that tried to enforce rules not to use enigma were failures. Those are just players who are too stubborn to adapt to new gameplay tactics and tried to keep playing in the old style.

How can you say the new stuff made the gameplay awful? There are many players (myself being one of them) who would strongly disagree with that. Classes being able to teleport makes duels a lot faster paced, allows players to make incredible comebacks, allows melee range characters (smiters/wwbarbs/wwsins) to chase down casters, makes chasing players in general (for both casters and noncasters) a lot more exciting because its all about namelock control and stomping, keeping locks while your opponent is attempting to break locks or lure and punish - really fun gameplay mechanics for pvp.

Really, your whole view on "the whole 1.10 and its synergy + new runewords made the game suck balls." is so opinionated. Lots of players are currently having fun with synergies and oskills in pvp today. Maybe you just didn't experience 1.10 pvp in a good way, maybe just dueling with the wrong crowd. idk. But there are lots of people who enjoy telestomping and the rest of what makes 1.10+ dueling what it is.

 

[Akse]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

I only know 1.10 classic leagues.

wwsins.. lol.. class is so sucky that it needs to use barbarians skills to win? Thats one retarded gameplay concept why they first design a class, which then ends up using same skill as another class as a main skill.

Melee characters have been able to kill casters/ranged already in 1.09 and even before that. A proof for that is one of my classic speed barbs. It was easier in 1.06 because everyone had the same resolution of 640x480 which made it harder for casters to predict a melee's position and they also couldn't make so long teleports with the smaller screen. Before LOD duels were always fast paced because there wasn't any stupid damage reduces, absorbs or anything. It was simple fast and required skill not gear.

Yeah maybe they are enjoying and can stay in D2 enjoying its suckyness.

Gladly D3 will be much different.

 

[wizAdept]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

I only know 1.10 classic leagues.

wwsins.. lol.. class is so sucky that it needs to use barbarians skills to win? Thats one retarded gameplay concept why they first design a class, which then ends up using same skill as another class as a main skill.

Melee characters have been able to kill casters/ranged already in 1.09 and even before that. A proof for that is one of my classic speed barbs. It was easier in 1.06 because everyone had the same resolution of 640x480 which made it harder for casters to predict a melee's position and they also couldn't make so long teleports with the smaller screen. Before LOD duels were always fast paced because there wasn't any stupid damage reduces, absorbs or anything. It was simple fast and required skill not gear.

Yeah maybe they are enjoying and can stay in D2 enjoying its suckyness.

Gladly D3 will be much different.

Lol wwsins sucky? You sure don't understand a thing about 1.10+ pvp.
Just cause they use ww does not mean they are trying to be barbs. Wow you are ignorant. Keep living in the past and thinking pre-LOD was some holy experience cause you never got into 1.10+ dueling. If you really think items > skill in d2 then perhaps you should just stay out of pvp it's not for you.

 

[wizAdept]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

Getting back on the topic of d3, Im kinda hoping for more of the same feel that d2 has with it's pvp.

I'd love it if players are able to deal huge amounts of damage in hld and knock each other out in a few hits like most core hld builds in d2 can. Also mobility is a must, players need to be able to pounce on each other and end duels quickly. Im liking how the barbarian has that fast leap, gonna be similar to teleporting onto someone bvc style. Hopefully every class will have some type of mobility tactic in one way or another.
Can't wait to see what d3 pvp has to offer.

 

[Akse]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

Lol wwsins sucky? You sure don't understand a thing about 1.10+ pvp.
Just cause they use ww does not mean they are trying to be barbs. Wow you are ignorant. Keep living in the past and thinking pre-LOD was some holy experience cause you never got into 1.10+ dueling. If you really think items > skill in d2 then perhaps you should just stay out of pvp it's not for you.

I didn't say wwsins are sucky .. never even played one. But I said is the class must be somehow sucky if it has to use a skill from other class. Why don't people just make kicker or something that really is an assassin.

Yeah pre-LOD was a holy experience. I never got into 1.10+ pretty much at all except now at 1.12 ladder. I think there are some good things in 1.10+ dueling, at least somewhere they went back to pre-LOD when they removed leeching. I'd gladly play classic BVB now but thers one thing that I don't like in there.. everyone pretty much has angelics because the set bonus is just too good. I don't like anything thats ultimately the best choice, maybe a bit like enigma, you wouldn't want to be the only one without it when others circle around you.

items > skill at least in LOD.. in classic no so much. Dunno how you beat someone in duel without any damage reduce(phys vs phys) if the opponent has maximum, at least it makes it a lot easier for the damage reduce user. There are just some mods in LOD that are pretty much a must, damage reduce is nice but I hate things that you "must" have.

Ye but anyways back to topic.. which i forgot so cya

 

[wizAdept]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

Because its not sucky to use oskills? I dont get your logic at all. Are sorcs sucky cause they use passion to zeal? omg its a pally skill.

oskills are not meant to replace classes or emulate classes. Zeal sorcs are radically different in how they duel from pally zealots.
Same goes for wwbarbs and wwsins. Wwsins are a different character type from wwbarbs, they have different class advantages and disadvantages, they play differently.
There is nothing ****ty about assassins that they have to use chaos, trappers are still a core pvp char type and are very abundant, trappers are considered top tier duelers in tournaments and team duel settings, where you hardly see any wwsins because wwsins are more 1v1 characters.
I don't see why you have this much a problem with oskills, personally I think its cool to mix up skills and see how they function on other classes with the support skills that class has on it's own.


And about skill > items, I truely believe this is the case once you get over build basics and have a functional build with minimal items.
As I said before, you can own just fine with a wizardspike + enigma without really needing other items and do fine vs casual players. Having good res stack setups and dr options and other stuff is of course important when you get to dueling better players, but really the most necessary thing in a duel is not getting hit.
Gameplay is key, casters avoid hits and attempt unanswered hits to get the pk. If this was a game about tanking it would be more item based, but its not about tanking because each class can pk each other in a few hits, this puts gameplay and not getting hit as the priority in a duel.

Im thinking you just havent experienced this 1.10+ style of hld.

 

[Akse]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

Never even heard of a zeal sorc.. thats ridiculous. sorcs are casters. If I want to zeal I choose pally, if I want to cast meteors I choose sorc. Another ridiculous thing is the BO that other people get from the runeword, one of the most powerful skills being given to all classes.. nice idea! Lets give everyone some extra hp since they seem to suck so bad.

oskills thing sounds like a single player mod that should have never been in the battle.net versions. I really don't understand the logic behind 1.10.. it is like a different game when you compare it to 1.09. They already changed the game to a very different when LOD came then again in 1.10. What will this game end up when this kinds of things goes on.. I wanted to play D2 and only got to play the real D2 for 1 year and after that I've been playing some stupid modifications of it.

I only play HC so I don't duel very much. From my experience classic hc duels are better in 1.10 than before that just because they are mostly BVB which is better without the leech that was in 1.09. So ye hc classic bvb has improved in 1.10.. otherwise I'd say pre-1.10 is better and pre-LOD is the best from pvp point of view.

Anyways it sounds like they want to make each class very unique in D3 so I really hope we don't see same kind of situation than in 1.10, if the classes are well designed as it looks like already we don't need such garbage that 1.10 brought with synergies and oskills.

 

[Saesa]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

...otherwise I'd say pre-1.10 is better and pre-LOD is the best from pvp point of view...

Madness and scorn. I loved 1.06-1.09 duelling as well but managed to accommodate during years. Perhaps it's best at the point where it is insantly.You never know what 1.13 brings.

 

[wizAdept]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

Never even heard of a zeal sorc.. thats ridiculous. sorcs are casters. If I want to zeal I choose pally, if I want to cast meteors I choose sorc.

Why? These are barriers you are creating in your mind for no reason. Most sorcs are casters yes, but that does not mean you can't make variations on builds. D2 would be kinda boring if every class was set in stone. Being able to make different yet viable builds is part of the fun.
Here is a nice vid of a zeal sorc in pvp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Hedybe7vw
Its not at all like a zeal pally, its not at all like a fb or blizz sorc, its its own class, made possible by an oskill weapon and 2x dreams.

Another ridiculous thing is the BO that other people get from the runeword, one of the most powerful skills being given to all classes.. nice idea! Lets give everyone some extra hp since they seem to suck so bad.

Giving all classes BO balances the game. Yet any cta bo is still much much weaker than a barb BO. fair.

I only play HC so I don't duel very much. From my experience classic hc duels are better in 1.10 than before that just because they are mostly BVB which is better without the leech that was in 1.09. So ye hc classic bvb has improved in 1.10.. otherwise I'd say pre-1.10 is better and pre-LOD is the best from pvp point of view.

Ah I see where you are coming from.
So you don't pvp at all in 1.10+
So you wouldn't know anything about pvp game balance and how enigma wearing chars actually duel. <.< Not trying to flame you but by saying you play only HC you are obviously out of your element in a pvp discussion.

Anyways it sounds like they want to make each class very unique in D3 so I really hope we don't see same kind of situation than in 1.10, if the classes are well designed as it looks like already we don't need such garbage that 1.10 brought with synergies and oskills.

I actually wouldn't mind if classes borrowed a little from each other here and there. not necessarily oskills but class skills dont have to be set in stone for that class only. A class borrowing a skill that belongs to another class does not make it the same class. Im kinda upset that the d3 barb was announced as the only true melee char, but then I was happy to see that the wizard has some melee like skills.
Not exactly the same thing as oskills. Don't think there is a need for oskills in d3 since it's being developed from the ground up at the moment but a few of them wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[Akse]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

Yeah I don't know much about 1.10 duels but I know enough that dueling sorc vs sorc wasn't really fun back pre 1.10. And thats about tele vs tele. I'd rather take a barb vs ama without teleport or something ama vs sorc. In Classic this worked out really nice and things were quite a bit balanced pre 1.10.

Well thats just my opinion, like the things about oskills. For me it just doesn't belong to the game. But since I play HC you actually see a lot less of those weird builds out there(the very little experience of 2 characters I played LOD HC this season). Maybe the reason I play classic is just that it's not LOD Lod pre 1.10 wasn't so much different but now it certainly is a whole different game than it used to be.

Well I agree that its nice that Wizard has melee skills, but the way she has it is a lot better than now in D2 She is casting melee objects that fights for her and such rather than being the warrior and being toe to toe against the enemy.

Anyways now we should get back to the topic

It's just hard to discuss about D3 pvp yet since it is really hard to figure out how it might work because you pretty much even can't figure out how PVM will work

 

[konnu]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

I totally agree with OP.

This change just cuts down diversity from the builds.

I'm even more afraid of WOW implementations to gear. Mainly i'm afraid blizzard will make sets too good, like they are in WOW. EVERYONE has the same gear, same set. and the set stats benefit specific builds more.

D2 gear was great, there was many possible builds and even more ways to equip it.

Speculation: For example one possiple build that could take a hit is the "battlemage" or enchanter mage who would like to have more health and melee stats.

 

[Nextt]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

While I hate the CTA due to the fact I played barb in 1.09 (using tele ammy so i owned all.) anyways, due to the fact that the Enigma was created it was needed that the CTA was needed, without a bo from CTA a barb could tele ww 1 hit kill easily. Without CTA all classes would die 1 hit to light sorc (unless they used sorb obviously which sorb in pvp is just another way of saying im a noob)
The pvp I would like to see in D3 is a PvPvE setup. where lets say there is these 2 to like 6 or 7 games that are up 24/7 and are a different map then ur normal games, but are still Large and can also have multiple people in them "say up to like 40?" or more or less just numbers. You can form groups of a max of 5 people "so as to not have a group be so overpowered they control the whole map easily" And within these maps that are way different than the normal games, theres mob spots where you can decide to kill mobs for exp and you get more exp for them(and they respawn). Well then also in these maps theres chances for bosses to spawn "boss respawn time is every 2-5ish hours"
So anyways basic idea that could turn better even. So while I don't know if they could even do this because this is then like implementing and "MMORPG" aspect into just a "RPG" game.
The thing is tho its only a part of the "PvP" which essentially is important. And I say kill mobs for exp also because Diablo is not a game where you want to hit max lvl doing quests.... that is retarded you will have nothing to do the game is paritally fun by the fact you always just level every now and then while trading , mfing, and pvping. It was nice to where there wasn't a big diff between lvl 91 and 99 due to no difference of items. only some stats / skills. So skill still made a difference. (compared to WoW the idea of a lvl 79 beating a lvl 80 who is just naxx geared now is impossible)
Now item wise, I hope very much it is not like WoW where all items are the same with simply sockets that everyone uses the same gems mostly in the same gear so it doesn't matter. Again a nice thing is the change in strength of an item when you find it "the whole unid / non unid thing" is great, it really makes you want to be like **** i wanna id it but if its **** i could of sold for more unid. Its a great aspect.
Now you might be like well in d2 you see the average for instance smiter they all use the same thing, grief, exile, vamps(due to chance of life tap which is amazing). etc. But even in that case at least theres differences due to the grief maybe being only 350 damage compared to 400 dmg.
People are bringing up the stat customization saying the gear is going to change it so peoples stats will be diff, but i don't see how gear is going to make that big of differences in stats other than your average "how vamps have 10-15 str" in which case it means you won't be building your character by even paying attention to stats because certain things are simply more important. Example from 1.09 just cause its off top of my head "bowzon's instead of using an ammy like eye of etlich (1 skills and other stuff) or an ammy with say 30 dex and 30 vite or something WITH 15% frw, they used the ammy that gives chance on hit to cast amplify (forget name of ammy) This is where the customization of stats was nice compared to simply saying your gonna get different stats than everyone else from different gear. (which i just don't see how all this "different gear with different stats" is going to happen) in every game theres the items that are usually the best items for your class( and its more than 1). For example. Verdungos on a barb, if a barb is going to use a shield because he wants max block, the shield choice is obvious, if he wants a shield with a 1h with alot of dmg bonus he will use pheonix. Or for a zon 4x 40/15 jewel chest, wwsin with bramble, I mean theres so much more. If customization didn't exist alot of these classes would be way to close to identical because there item stats only vary from "1-10" stat points. By having str req's etc, you had to think "I'm going to be getting x stats from this, and x stats from this" so i need to put x stats into dex for max block or x stats into str to use my gear. Made it more intense and really separated people who were playing for PvP and those who actually played D2 for PvE(lol at so much PvE content). Also a game shouldn't be so Cooperative like WoW where skill is so not factored into how you play your class its impossible to win 1v3 or 1v2 even agasint equally geared people. In D2, if your skilled enough (like my ele druid gotta love the nados) you could 1v5ish people of the same geared (partially depending on classes facing) and 1 v full game if you play defensively enouph (and they don't have a barb his BO would simply be to much that it would be to hard to kill people cause they back out and POt!)

 

[sreda]

Re: D3: arcade game instead of an RPG?

From everything we have heard about the game, it really sounds like Blizzard is removing the aspect of pvp that I know many of us enjoyed the most, the part that happens before combat: building your character....

I agree for the most part. But after watching hours of interviews and videos of Diablo 3 it's become clear to me that Blizzard is AWARE of this problem. Exactly as how you say it, and I'm quite sure they will have found a work-around that won't end up being like WoW's pathetic system.

There will be many different builds you could make with the system they have setup right now, runes can add to your skills power so it's more like they switched the customizable attributes to instead, customizable skills. If you ask me, the only reason they made attribute gaining the same all across the board for everyone is because of the casuals (which are the vast vast majority of the gamers on Blizzard's games), they will **** up their attribute points without a doubt and then ***** about it.

So it's inevitable, D2 highlighted that problem quite well, with everyone sticking 40 points in str and dex, and the rest in vitality, more or less. I however do feel where you are coming from, and aside from knowing that Blizzard is aware of this problem I really do hope even more so that they stick to their word, and really do make this game extremely diverse.

I want to be able to make a build that no one else has. I should from the moment I read and understand all the skills and the game mechanics, visualize at least 4-5 different builds off the top of my head, the game should be that sandbox-like if you get my drift. They said there would be many many builds that someone could make, that's really all I'm hoping for.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

I have not read all post, i know i usually should, but i pretty much just want to state my opinion.

I do not think blizzard is going to remove pvp, or hender it in any way. I think they are trying to address the PK issues. PVP always has been geared dependant, you can not tell me any different.

Also on note on the talent tree, WOW got there idea from diablo first, they just improving a system they already have.

 

[Nextt]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

I have not read all post, i know i usually should, but i pretty much just want to state my opinion.

I do not think blizzard is going to remove pvp, or hender it in any way. I think they are trying to address the PK issues. PVP always has been geared dependant, you can not tell me any different.

Also on note on the talent tree, WOW got there idea from diablo first, they just improving a system they already have.

PvP is sometimes "partially" gear dependent in for instance D2 Lod lets put 2 people with different gear against each other of same class. Lets use a necromancer as a example, each one will have a nigma and hoto, however 1 of them is going to use 2x soj, while 1 of them is going to use 2x fcr rings with str. And 1 will use a mara while other uses 2 necro skills + fcr and/or life + resists or other stats. 1 Will use a shako and 1 will use a 2 necro skills helm with fcr and fhr due to jewels and give extra life.
If you simply add in skill, the necro with the less life and or dmg/fcr etc, can win and honesty perhaps easily when you would think the other would win, due to skill and not items.

In WoW, same class vs same class = whoever has most resilience and life is most expected to win (unless obviously by a trivial amount)
Lets use a rogue, say that the rogue with less resilience and life is more skilled, he gets the first attack / stun lock blahblah, however he doesn't kill the other rogue, now its the other rogues turn since stucklock is over, the rogue with less resilience / life is now dead.

 

[emopanda]

Re: D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

I would like to see d3 having the focus whereby rare and crafted are the most powerful, (Idea of powerful is like Grandfather <vs< ebotd cb <vs< Crafted & Rares) the game will be more fun having everyone have the different gears. Also allow gear inspection into d3, there will be so much fun

Lastly, Introduce the Ability to make items etheral using a new unique ring in recipe.