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D3 itemization is not addictive enough

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by LprMan, Jun 3, 2012.

  1. LprMan

    LprMan IncGamers Member

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    You may or may not agree with me, but this is how I feel about current itemization in Diablo 3. Also, sorry for the wall of text :)

    The most honest and spot-on definition of â€Diablo†I have ever seen is this: it's a â€glorified slot machineâ€. At first, the player is thrown into a world of slaughtering all kinds of monsters and demons using variety of different, interesting skills and spells. On the side, the game introduces a story to keep the player going on, at least for one full playthrough. While the aforementioned things are fun, they will not carry on for a long time. The game will slowly turn into a repetitive clickfest. For this reason, the game tries to get the player hopelessly hooked on a carefully crafted item system. When someone says â€Diablo†is all about the loot, this is what they mean. A system, in which you get addicted.

    At the moment, in Diablo 3, players hardly ever find items, which make them squeal in joy. Items, which make people play more and more and more. Over and over again… just to find that next item made of pure awesome. Item, which might be right around the next corner… just one more run. I’m not necessarily talking about very powerful items – it could be that, but the item could simply be cool beyond all imagination, or really make the player think: is this item good? Would it be good, if I changed my skill setup to something else? Basically, the item is special in some way (looks, utility, the overall package, anything really). Diablo 3 in its current state does not generate that feverish item-addition in people well enough. This is a serious problem, because once the freshness and novelty of storyline, new skills and areas has worn off, items are the only thing which remains. If the items are boring, the longevity of the game is killed.

    Legendary and set item play central role in this all. Traditionally (and also for a reason) they have stood out of the churning mass of loot, which the game throws on the screen. Often they have been a rather clear cut upgrade, or at least they provide a noticeable difference (like freeze target on armor, but no other significant mods, etc). On top of that, they give players a goal to aim for. Exactly like with those slot machines – on the side of the machine reads â€get combination X and win Yâ€. Player knows there is something in there, waiting to be found. They want to get that special â€somethingâ€.

    The core of the item system cannot depend too much on magical and rare items – they are too random and chaotic. Legendaries and set items have offered players a landmark and point of reference in the sea of randomness, creating a steady foundation from which to reach further. Rare items are best fit to be those ultimate â€jackpotsâ€, the best items in the whole game. Of course, rares can be good (or even great) at any level, but you can never count on them in the same way as you can count on legendaries and sets. Using magicals and rares to get people hooked on the game is much harder and uncertain. I think Blizzard failed, when they added even several totally random modidiers on legendaries, because it blurs the players view even further. The random modifiers on legendaries may drastically change the item and turn it into something totally different. They are much more likes rares now. In the past, modifiers on legendaries were fixed, and their numerical values were randomized inside a preset range. A legendary item always served it's specified purpose, better roll simply did the intended thing a bit... better. Legendaries were rarely a total disappointment, or at least they dropped often enough not to drive players crazy.

    In previous games of the series, the feeling of boredom which now plagues players, set in when you felt all the items had already been found, and those few missing pieces were unbelievably rare or such minor upgrades, that finding them didn't motivate into clicking marathons. Again thinking about the slot machine, there is no more significant winnings in sight, just endless clicking of buttons. This is when people move on to other games, take a break to return later, or delete what they have and start anew. Comparing the state of Diablo 3 to a slot machine: almost every time, when you put 1 coin into the machine, you get 0-2 coins. Sometimes you get 5 coins, but rarely, if ever, more than that. By inserting 100 coins, one by one, you get back 110 coins. Sure, you continuosly â€upgrade†your situation and it is profitable, but it's not fun. In earlier Diablo games you might have got long dry streaks, but then you really hit the jackpot, and your eagerness to play the game was renewed... until you had seen all of it (which took years). Diablo 3 does not take player on such item tour. Players are slowly inching few stats higher, item after another, and there is "no light in sight", figuratively speaking.

    I feel Blizzard has spent too much time balancing items perfectly – i.e. you can never find item, which makes the game too easy (even for a little while) or does something special. This seriously sucks out the fun out of finding items. It becomes a chore instead of being addictive. Item drop rates, modifiers and all related stuff needs to be rebalanced and expanded. Ultimate goal is item system, which is fun, addictive, and offers dozens of viable endgame items of multiple qualities for each slot. It is hard to pull off, but if Blizzards wants this game to become a evergreen classic like its predecessors (and surpass them), it has to be done.

    Fortunately, the game is solid on other fronts, offering Blizzard a good base to build upon.
     
  2. swayzesghost

    swayzesghost Banned

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    Completely agree, and this is the central problem with the game. All they have to do is fix this issue and D3 is an amazing game. I watched a legendary ring drop in front of my face and my reaction: "Ooh! It probably sucks. I'll give it to my friend".
     
  3. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    It's already been confirmed that they are buffing legendary and set items.

    As of now the market seems to have tons of lvl 60 legendary items in the GAH though, so I hope they continue with the random affixes, to prevent the market from cluttering up.

    I'm looking forward to this and PvP as well.

    EDIT: I do not think it is wise to spend loads of gold on legendary now though.


     
  4. Greizer

    Greizer IncGamers Member

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    This is a great post, sums up the itemization problems very well. :thumbup: You could mention the fact that the item choices were an intricate puzzle in D2, because you needed enough of certain mods in order to meet breakpoints (fhr, ias and fcr). As a melee you needed Cannot be frozen, and you'd be a fool not to use Frostburn + SoJs as an ES sorc. You could never have all you wanted in a build without godliest of the godly gear. That's what kept people crafting amulets and hunting rare belts and rings for years. But as you say uniques and sets were the bread and butter of the item system, and you had to choose the right ones in order to meet breakpoints and other build goals.

    D3 has none of this. You stack Vita, Mainstat, Allres, Ias, +Crit, +Crit chance, Liferegen, Armor and that's it. Now granted, good items are only starting to appear on the AH, and the build possibilities are not nearly exhausted yet - e.g. stacking ias leads to ridiculous results on Monks, and I suspect the OP wizard build (in a thread on these forums) uses +Crit and +Crit chance stacked gear. But the choices are much more clear-cut than they were in D2 (with LoD ofc).

    I'd say go and post this on the official forums if you haven't already, maybe with a TL;DR and the point about items being a 'puzzle' of sorts. I'm sure you can word it better than me.
     
  5. ShadowMatrix

    ShadowMatrix IncGamers Member

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    I agree overall with what you're saying about items, there isn't enough of the addictive flavor in them. Everyone is after IAS and all resist.


    There are some things like about what they've done with some of the set and legendaries such as only a certain pair of set pants gives you IAS yet it cannot be found on rare pants at all. To me that is the type of foundation that legendaries should be based upon that sets them apart from rares in which they have some sort of special modifier that rares cannot spawn with, nothing too overpowering in a sense either.

    Another item modifier I like is the melee damage reduction stat you can find on several legendaries and sets which if you were to collect all the items with melee damage reduction it would add up to over 40% which is insane and with a good storm shield should make melee very sturdy. Wizards have a passive that adds 20% melee damage reduction which could total to 60% if a wizard ever tried to do some weird melee build.
     
  6. ThomasJ

    ThomasJ IncGamers Member

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    Itemization is broken thats why. Their game design fails so hard so they are going to desperately try to fix it but it won't matter. Better rpgs are coming down the line.
     
  7. swayzesghost

    swayzesghost Banned

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    I honestly don't see anything on the horizon that can even hope to barely compete with D3 in this genre.


     
  8. TheRealStinger

    TheRealStinger IncGamers Member

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    In 12 months, this game will be completely different. Look at Diablo 2 now compared to when it launched. It has an expansion pack and has been majorly patched at least 16 times. Right now, I say, enjoy it, check out different builds, etc. The best is yet to come.
     
  9. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    But this itemzation was done on purpose, the game was delayed for 6+ months just so this new itemzation could take place, remember when everyone was speculating that the Korea's legal issues with the RMAH were delaying the game? No it wasnt, they had to redo the rune skill system and most importantly the whole stat and item system.

    When we had Attack - Precision - Willpower- Protection, every item could be useful for anyone, it was just a matter of adjusting what is better for your playstyle. More attack so you simply do more damage? More precision to have more criticals? More willpower to have more resources? Protection for damage reduction? But the problem is that they said that this was bad because it didnt improve trading, for then its a good thing that a wizard can find a armor with +str so it can be put on the AH. Their hands are tied on the itemzation because of this, they cant go overboard with the affixes and risk unbalancing this system, the items are way too important to be balanced so the AH's economy doesnt get out of control, the system now is boring but its balanced.

    I remember a very old (maybe 2008) video of JW saying that small percentages like 1% 2% werent fun at all so they were going to have the game making you feel power with lots of crazy things happening, but windforce here has 1-5% chance to knockback, everything is controlled because if an overpowered item comes along, they have no control on how the player might abuse it, become a powerhouse of farming and thus, getting more items than deserved.

    I guess I was way more excited when a Sigon or even a Death Sash dropped in D2 than anything in Diablo 3, but now, adding lots of new affixes to the item system will really change anything? And drop rates are already extremely low because the drops are balanced around the AH (confirmed by Bashiok) suddenly having new affixes dropped wont change all that much and lots of players are already 60 or reaching it and so far havent being rewarded with one single interesting drop, only number changes, that was already huge letdown for those were lvling.

    Well I am pessimistic about the itemzation short-term solution, maybe in the long-run, on expansions, it can be improved but they arent going to suddenly flood the game with interesting affixes when the game isnt even a month old, specially when it took them more than 6 months to leave the itemzation on where it is. Also by the time they "fix" the itemzation every item must be focused on lv60, the game is short, its easy and fast to complete it 3 times and reach inferno, almost everyone will be lv 60 and thus, having no reason the reroll a class, so those Low-lvl useful set/uniques like Sigons are limited to be out or just not very useful anymore.

    That is an issue as well, the need to reroll a character with the help of certain uniques/sets made the itemzation more interesting, in D2 you could find a small nice unique or set and save it for your lower character or a reroll, right now everyone is already reaching 60 and due to itemzation already in-place (which isnt going to change, it may be expanded but it will remain there) which makes items extremely volatile on their use, you are always finding bigger numbers to upgrade, boring blues and the occassional rare but they are there to quickly upgrade your existing items.

    I dont know, again, it might be fixed but its not going to be as soon as most people are thinking.
     
  10. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    my problem is this:
    [​IMG]
    50% of all items that drop for me a quivers. >_>
     
  11. capnlarge

    capnlarge IncGamers Member

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    OP obviously did not play D2 until after LoD. Rares were the best items in the game in D2 Classic, since none of the exceptional or elite set/unique items were added until the release of Lord of Destruction.
     
  12. GibItam

    GibItam IncGamers Member

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    Try hc and then read your story again, in hc you always need gear to lvl again after a rip.


     
  13. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    But even in D2C there were useful uniques to help you along the journey, or set items. You could find the Silks of Victor and combine with some rares, and uniques had interesting unique properties when in D3 they are just weaker rares.

    Even so, they had quite some to see what D2:LoD did right, the itemzation had issues but at least it was fun and interesting, much more than this +stats MMO crap.

    Nah, I liked HC in D2 but I am staying away from HC in D3, too much latency issues and the end game (inferno) is just a deathzerg fest, even JW said that Inferno wasnt made for HC and it certainly isnt. I am not going to lose 1/4 of the content and all the gear it can drop there just to make the game more challenging, in D2 I could have a lot of fun playing in Softcore.
     
  14. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Oh look, another thread about the same topic that's been getting beat into the ground for 2+ weeks. Yay.

    Yes, we know, items are boring. Blizz even acknowledged it. Everyone's aware. Now please be quiet about it until there's actually something new to say about the subject (patch 1.3, I believe).
     
  15. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    They are already fixing the itemzation issue on 1.3? Thats great news!
     
  16. Ace_wanderer

    Ace_wanderer IncGamers Member

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    Great points. The items in D3 are boring and pointless, it needs a drastic change to even become the least bit interesting.



     
  17. Jdthomas

    Jdthomas IncGamers Member

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    I suspect items are generic and boring because they can't really nerf an item once it's gone through the rmah. There would be lawsuits aplenty if items were changed after it was sold for real money. Muuuuuuch safter to make things dull as heck.
     
  18. swayzesghost

    swayzesghost Banned

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    You can't sue over this. There is no merit and accepting the EULA and TOS basically give Blizzard the right to do what they want.


     
  19. Chaosmage

    Chaosmage IncGamers Member

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    Whats missing is things like soj, iceblink, cathans sigil, tarnhelm, lenymo, nightsmoke, fronstburn, magefist, etc....

    This has nothing to do with buffing, those items weren't better they were just unique. Oh guess what there are no unique items any more.
    Get it? :scratchchin:
     
  20. swayzesghost

    swayzesghost Banned

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    People who started with D2X don't understand the power of stuff like Iceblink, Tarnhelm, Lenymo, Nightsmoke. Really good ones you picked out there.


     

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