D3 Achievements

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

What? How dare you? What on earth!...

I'm trying my best to explain why and how these things are usually made and you dare call me a troll?

You are a troll. All of your posts come off with as having a ridiculously pretentious tone, and you took like 5 wind-up posts before even coming up with a substantive counter argument to Siyko. Why couldn't you have just posted your design experience with actual logic in the first place, and spare us several garbage 'hot air' posts? I would have had much more respect for you if you had done this, as you do seem to have an incredible amount of knowledge on application design. Then again, you did tell Siyko you don't care what he thinks of you, and I'm sure you're thinking along the same lines for me.

You don't have to be demeaning every time you're on the opposite side of an issue. Its one thing to have an opinion and back it, it's another thing to look like a baby while trying to get your point across. You have a terrible tendency to dismiss somebody else's point of view as "weak", sheerly because you disagree with it. While you don't necessarily have to agree with people's points, it fair to occasionally acknowledge them.

Anyway, enough about forum etiquette. I don't always observe it perfectly myself, but it's something you may want to work on in the future. After reading this entire thread I'll also strive to do the same.

You have in my opinion, failed to pick a stance on the topic during your passion for argument:

I say there is value in an AS because I like Achievements. So, why do you insist in this line of thought where you can read on this thread a lot of players saying they would like or they wouldn't mind having an AS?

Aren't you just forgetting that there are also other people playing the game and they too have a saying. Why do you insist there is no value in AS? At least, I take the stance I wouldn't mind either way; Diabo 3 with or without AS is ok with me.

While it took you forever to do so, you have successfully raised an argument against the idea that achievements do take a lot of resources. While I don't agree with it, I do applaud you in finally doing so. Unfortunately, there was another point you completely dismissed:

And if Achievements bother you, you ca simply ignore them. Ignore hem altogether and they will not bother you. How could this be a problem to you is beyond me.

Both Siyko and I have now cited how achievements can inconvenience people trying to play the game "normally". We both cited Team Fortress with the exact same example, but apparently it needs to be repeated a third time.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Demetrium/stats/TF2?tab=achievements


Does It Hurt When I Do This?
Kill 50 Scouts with your syringe gun.

Consultation
Assist a fellow Medic in killing 5 enemies in a single life.

Peer Review
Kill 50 Medics with your bone saw.


It took me about 30 seconds to find three achievements that have the potential to (and have, from my experience) negatively impact gameplay for most serious gamers. If you need, I can explain them since I assume not everyone has played Team Fortress 2. In TF2, your primary role as a medic should be to keep your team alive via healing. Anyone can see that these above achievements can completely distract someone playing a medic from keeping their team alive. People are going to be compelled to do these achievements, if not only by laundry list compulsion, but by the fact in TF2 you are rewarded with alternate weapons upon getting x number of achievements.

Obviously not every game has achievements like this (or is necessarily team based), but you can obviously see the potential problem it becomes, especially when rewards are thrown into the mix. This is why, like I said earlier, I am vehemently against any sort of bonus based on achievements. This is also why I disagree with anyone who says "achievements won't affect you, ignore them". It just doesn't work that way. Any time you have bonuses attached to achievements (regardless of how small), many gamers, especially hardcore gamers will find the achievements become less and less optional in their strife for greatness.

I still completely stand by my opinion that achievements add nothing to a game. Any achievement can be done regardless of whether or not it's on some list. Again, I think that real achievements will be recognized by yourself and the people who witness them. It seems to me like this concept is purely opinion based and really can't be argued. Regardless, this is my stance.

Also, Knight_Wolf, you don't have to use 5000 ellipses for every post you make.

 

[Vitamins]

Re: D3 Achievements

Both Siyko and I have now cited how achievements can inconvenience people trying to play the game "normally". We both cited Team Fortress with the exact same example, but apparently it needs to be repeated a third time.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Demetrium/stats/TF2?tab=achievements

Does It Hurt When I Do This?
Kill 50 Scouts with your syringe gun.

Consultation
Assist a fellow Medic in killing 5 enemies in a single life.

Peer Review
Kill 50 Medics with your bone saw.

It took me about 30 seconds to find three achievements that have the potential to (and have, from my experience) negatively impact gameplay for most serious gamers. If you need, I can explain them since I assume not everyone has played Team Fortress 2. In TF2, your primary role as a medic should be to keep your team alive via healing. Anyone can see that these above achievements can completely distract someone playing a medic from keeping their team alive. People are going to be compelled to do these achievements, if not only by laundry list compulsion, but by the fact in TF2 you are rewarded with alternate weapons upon getting x number of achievements.
Obviously not every game has achievements like this (or is necessarily team based), but you can obviously see the potential problem it becomes, especially when rewards are thrown into the mix. This is why, like I said earlier, I am vehemently against any sort of bonus based on achievements. This is also why I disagree with anyone who says "achievements won't affect you, ignore them". It just doesn't work that way. Any time you have bonuses attached to achievements (regardless of how small), many gamers, especially hardcore gamers will find the achievements become less and less optional in their strife for greatness.
I still completely stand by my opinion that achievements add nothing to a game. Any achievement can be done regardless of whether or not it's on some list. Again, I think that real achievements will be recognized by yourself and the people who witness them. It seems to me like this concept is purely opinion based and really can't be argued. Regardless, this is my stance.

The simple proactive solution is to create an achievement system that does not reward players with benefits that directly affect core gameplay mechanics. Rewards like titles, vanity pets, costumes, et cetera. Further, the achievement system should not be mandatory. If you want a real-world example of such an achievement system, then look no further than Blizzard's most popular and successful game: World of Warcraft. There are WoW players who love the achievement system and there are WoW players who couldn’t care less about the system and who ignore it completely (I was one of them). The fact is an achievement system similar to WoW’s would not affect players like you in any way, but it’d affect and enhance the game for players who would decide to use such a system. The only argument your camp of thinking has that is worth talking about is whether or not an achievement system is worth the money and time, and the only way you could determine that is with a poll.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

The simple proactive solution is to create an achievement system that does not reward players with benefits that directly affect core gameplay mechanics. Rewards like titles, vanity pets, costumes, et cetera. Further, the achievement system should not be mandatory. If you want a real-world example of such an achievement system, then look no further than Blizzard's most popular and successful game: World of Warcraft. There are WoW players who love the achievement system and there are WoW players who couldn’t care less about the system and who ignore it completely (I was one of them). The fact is an achievement system similar to WoW’s would not affect players like you in any way, but it’d affect and enhance the game for players who would decide to use such a system. The only argument your camp of thinking has that is worth talking about is whether or not an achievement system is worth the money and time, and the only way you could determine that is with a poll.

While WoW's achievement system usually doesn't affect core gameplay, you do fail to realize the impact it has. The following examples are obviously less dramatic than my TF2 examples, but they are examples nonetheless:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Tailoring
Upon reaching 420, tailors unlock two cloak recipes that can be learned from the Dalaran trainer once the proper achievements have been completed.

The specific achievements for this are quest related; I want to say there are also rewards for doing things like "learning x number of recipes", etc, but I am not positive. Regardless --- where's the negative player impact?

Joe newbie is leveling up by trying to do some quests. A level 80 rolls in and plows through the camp he's slowly working down and kills the one NPC he needs for his quest. Why? Mr. Level 80 didn't do this quest originally, and now is doing it for an achievement that requires he "completes 1450 Northern Kingdom quests". There are a lot of different ways this can happen, with some different twists. This example is just the most prominent.

The only argument your camp of thinking has that is worth talking about is whether or not an achievement system is worth the money and time, and the only way you could determine that is with a poll.

I don't understand --- I just explained how it has impact on TF2. It's a legitimate argument. I'll agree with you that the system has a lesser effect on WoW, but as I said in my original post, it all depends on how they're implemented. Can you say how they will implement them for D3? I certainly can't.

 

[Vitamins]

Re: D3 Achievements

While WoW's achievement system usually doesn't affect core gameplay, you do fail to realize the impact it has.

The issue is you're not making a good case for why an achievement system has to impact core gameplay. Therefore, it's illogical to be against the idea of achievement systems for that reason. You've given me two examples of the WoW achievement system giving players item rewards with stats. Putting aside the fact that those two cloaks are not all that great, your examples don't prove that WoW's achievement system is detrimental to its core gameplay, nor do they prove that all achievement systems have to have such rewards.

Joe newbie is leveling up by trying to do some quests. A level 80 rolls in and plows through the camp he's slowly working down and kills the one NPC he needs for his quest. Why? Mr. Level 80 didn't do this quest originally, and now is doing it for an achievement that requires he "completes 1450 Northern Kingdom quests". There are a lot of different ways this can happen, with some different twists. This example is just the most prominent.

Could you do me a favor and not make things up and exaggerate? I have a feeling you’ve never even played WoW before. There’s not even a Northern Kingdom in WoW. In my experience, I have never encountered this problem in WoW. I have never had a high level come by and jack my kills and say,”oops, sorry, I’m just doing an achievement,” but even if that did happen, the NPCs/Quest items respawn within a minute anyways, so who cares? This argument does not apply to WoW as far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand --- I just explained how it has impact on TF2.

I don’t understand your posts either. It’s nice that we share some common ground.

Read this again:

"The simple proactive solution is to create an achievement system that does not reward players with benefits that directly affect core gameplay mechanics. Rewards like titles, vanity pets, costumes, et cetera. Further, the achievement system should not be mandatory."

Let it sink it, then post.

 

[sinned]

Re: D3 Achievements

TF2 achievements are a bit flawed but the WoW achievements are really smartly done. They don't spoil the experience for others. I believe this will also be the case in D3 and SC2. In WoW the achievement system was a great success, aparat from some random naysayers but the character hair style change had more naysayers really. As it has been mentioned here already, Blizz wants achievements in their upcoming titles, so they must think the advantages greatly outweigh the disavantages.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: D3 Achievements

I don't understand --- I just explained how it has impact on TF2. It's a legitimate argument. I'll agree with you that the system has a lesser effect on WoW, but as I said in my original post, it all depends on how they're implemented. Can you say how they will implement them for D3? I certainly can't.

No it isn't, the way team work is handled in TF2 and the fact that you get substantial rewards from TF2 Achievements make it a special case of badly designed AS with little thought regarding how much impact it could have on the game ...which isn't the general case at all with many other games (WoW and Halo 3 to name few .. oh .. and every freaking game on the Xbox 360 with an online mode too).

As i said few replies before Blizz does plan to include AS in all their upcoming games and on B.net2 and they started with WoW ... they surely learned the benefits of having AS in games and that a number of players like them from the XBox Live experience .. it freaking works if designed right ... it's like after seeing few horror B movies you come up with the conclusion that all horror movies are trash and ignore there are many good ones out there.

--------------------------------------------------
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Now that we all know Blizz IS undoubtedly going to implement AS in all their upcoming games (SC2 and D3) and use B.net2 accounts to keep track of them i'll give a quick run down on how i think it could be done.


I'll separate Achievements in three classes, first two will work more or less like a record of the player progress and what play style he/she favors ... if you see the achievements page of such player you will know immediately what kind of player he/she is and will know whether to team up with him/her or not, the third type is where the real crazy challenges and out-of-the-box gameplay is.

------------------------------

First type:
-Achievements that record normal/typical player progress and activities, like the titles people gotten after finishing D2 on any difficulty, but this time it covers a broader range of things, they work as a record of how much progress this specific player has made in the game or how much time he/she has been playing ... eventually everyone is ought to get them.

Examples:
-"Transcendent Hero" --> finish game on all three difficulties.
-"Heroes Galore" --> finish the game with all classes on all three difficulties.
-"Butcher" --> kill 1,000,000 monsters
And so on so forth

-------------------------------

Second Type:
-This type is like the first, except it is more determinant to player style rather than his/her general progress, it focuses on certain activities taken to an extreme, they aren't a big challenge but they will immediately tell you what kind of player that person is, they include team oriented AS and activity specific AS.

-"Explorer" --> complete 100 optional quests
-"Majestic Trader" --> trade 1000 items
-"Die Hard" --> complete HC mode 10 times
-"Teamwork" --> Kill 10,000 monsters while in a team
-"Zillionare" --> accumulate 1,000,000,000 gold
And so on so forth

-------------------------------


Third Type:
-That's where the real challenges are, they are made for those who want to try something crazy and unusual.

-"Naked Warrior" --> complete the game 5 times on "Hell" without wearing items and without using items to kill any monsters.
-"Armed to the Teeth" --> complete the game 5 times on "Hell" without investing in or using any skills (passive or active).
-"Hard to the Core" --> finish HC mode 2 times, once without using items and once without using skills.
-"Never Bite the Dust" --> finish game on nightmare difficulty 50 consecutive times without dying.
-"Hell Breaker" --> finish game on Hell difficulty 20 consecutive times without dying.
-"Scavenger" --> finish the game once on Nightmare without buying or selling any items and only using items the fall from enemies.
-"Brilliant Scavenger" --> finish the game once on Hell without buying or selling any items and only using items the fall from enemies.


-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

Final notes

1-All examples i made are thought on the fly and can't solely be used to judge how good or bad AS are going to be in D3.

2-As can overlap, while getting one you can be move closer to another as well since they don't require the player confirmation to initiate them.

3-The Achievements are tied to the player account, not a specific D3 character.

4-Achievements can be smartly designed to make players focus on POSITIVE aspects like team work or trade.

5-Achievements can have several purposes (monitoring general progress of said player, show signs of play style, challenges for hardcore players)

6-Rewards can be given to completing a certain percentage of all achievements ... rewards are cosmetic at best and have no substantial impact on gameplay (like in WoW and Halo 3)


7-For all those who say it takes away from creativity, quite the opposite, not only does it keep track of every action you make (and many players like that kind of system) and give each player an identity but it also does allow for creativity since many player will challenge themselves to getting two or three different achievements parallely which increases the challenges greatly.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

If this is what you conclude from my posts, then we have nothing more to talk about. You aren't going to flinch even when faced with the best possible arguments I can come up with.

Uh, of course not, you're arguing an irrelevant point. If you post a lengthy post about how achievements are perfectly implemented, and I post ABSOLUTE CONCLUSIVE PROOF that the Earth revolves around the Sun, would you yield your point?

It's only a shame you confuse your distaste for achievements with their usefulness in the context of a broad game that has the potential to satisfy all sorts of players with a small share of their desires.

Heh, I think you changed the direction of this sentence halfway through. This basically says "achievements ARE useful", something you STILL haven't given any evidence of.

You negate Achievements basing yourself on arguments you can't sustain, defend or in any way support. Not satisfied you negate any effort to show you your arguments are wrong. You are thus taking a fundamentalist stance on this issue.

What? So I'm defending my points? Wow, what a ridiculous thing to do.

And I will refuse to debate this any further with you. And now... let's go back to what started this all, shall we? Appreciate the irony:

I was right all the time. But it's ok. I often am.

This is just an opinion piece you wrote, and still haven't given ANYTHING to back it up. Do you not understand that? You have come up with a conclusion, dismiss everything that challenges that conclusion as ridiculous, then praised your conclusion for being the only non-ridiculous piece left. Seriously, do you not understand this? Does this not make any sense to you?

Eluding the point ... fail much .... you clearly equated them if you are comparing them directly ... you can't equate making a class or a map editor with a simple events counter .. that's a completely false and delusional comparison because the difference in the work needed for the first makes the second trivial in terms of the time and effort needed.

And stop you pathetic attempts at perosnal insults ... +more fail.

Again, you have successfully disproven the claim you put in my mouth. What eludes you is the fact that this is meaningless.

WTH !!!! .... i say they care about the quality of the game more than release dates, effort or money spent and you talk to me about decisions hurting the company ... apparently you know nothing about Blizz ... we have a clear example for that (SC:Ghost much .. and there are many other of their games that got canceled because they what they care about the most is their QUALITY standard) .. really WTH ... you also magically and out of thin air assumed that adding achievements would hurt the game ... delusional much ... and can't read too ... THEY PLAN TO ADD ACHIEVEMENTS IN ALL THEIR UPCOMING GAMES ... does the CAPs help you read better ... hope so ^_^

I REALLY don't think you understand what I wrote, and unfortunately, I can't write any simpler. I guess I'll just have to chalk you up as a loss.

Maybe Blizz should listen to you and cancel all their games cause they take effort and time to make and sit on their back in Hawaii enjoying their WoW money. /just giving you a taste of your hyperbolism

What is the point of saying this? Seriously, I don't understand what you're trying to inflict upon me.

Try a meaningful reply next time ... the idea works very well and there are many examples to that regardless of whatever bad experiences you babble about.

If there are 'many', then how come the net count in this thread is 'zero'?

Yeah, because the ideas i came up within 5 secs on the fly are the ONLY ideas that can be made ... gosh ... close mindedness .. delusions and always jumping to conclusions ... there is no point in giving any examples to you cause you won't listen either way.

Hahaha, I really like the flow of this:

A: There are no good examples in history
B: It is easy to come up with good ones!
A: Why can't you come up with any?
B: Fine, (1), (2), (3),
A: Those are bad.
B: So what? It's easy to come up with good ones!

Sigh ... so much fail really .... you state you only played games with bad achievements and then turn that into a fact that all achievements are bad ... that's exactly what CLOSE MINDED is ... so hard to understand i guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Argue against what I say, not what you pretend I said.

 

[Brandonn]

Re: D3 Achievements

I'm popping back in to try to re-rail this topic!

I've read through all the posts, and while I'm pro-achievements, I've enjoyed reading both sides. AND, I am open minded (on most things). I understand both sides. But when I first made this thread, it wasn't intended to ask the question "Do you like Achievements", sure that was part of it, and let the discussion go where it may, thats the point of this place, yeah? But let's not let it get out of hand.

I want to post something here from "www.maxfreak.com":

[BLUE="http://www.maxfreak.com/diablo3/archives/diablo-3-achievements/"]In an interview for MTV, lead WoW designer Jeff Kaplan said that Diablo 3 will feature an Achievement system.

There’s already something of an achievement system in Diablo 2 with the Lords, Dames and the other titles. However, what’s new in Diablo 3 is that your Diablo 3 achievements will be added to your WoW and Starcraft 2 achievements for a total Blizzard rank.

The Blizzard rank will be associated with your master Battle.net account, so you’ll be able to show off. I only hope they give adequate achievements bonus to WoW twinks ‘cos I have several![/BLUE]

Blizz WILL have achievements, so if it take more time, if they hire someone just to think of all achievements, etc, it doesn't matter, because they are going to have them.

The other arguments are that it can mess up game play if done wrong. Well, sure it can - anything can. So we just need to hope they do it right, but based on how they did achievements in WoW, I think they will do fine.

So what I'd like us to do, is for us to drop the arguments, and instead discuss what types of achievements you'd like to see in D3. Heck, for those of you that are more concerned about Blizz messing something up, you can post a list of bad achievements.

Maybe later we can argue of the achievements that we've come up with.

:thumbup: Achievement Unlocked
Re-Railed - Get a Forum Thread Back on Track

...we'll see...

 

[Krugar]

Re: D3 Achievements

So what I'd like us to do, is for us to drop the arguments, and instead discuss what types of achievements you'd like to see in D3.

Well, I'm having a little trouble with that. I guess Knight_Wolf did an impressive good job already just two posts above yours. Check that out.

I'm having a little trouble with coming with something else because Blizzard has hinted several times already there's a lot of new game mechanics we are still waiting to see. Some of these may come as excellent targets for achievements.

As an example, let's just pretend, for an instant D3 introduces the notion of scalable item upgrades (something I would really like to have, similar to what Fate has, and that simply means we can upgrade items several times, each time adding to their mods, or if we are unlucky removing them). There could be some potential to create a couple of achievements based on this feature.

In any case, Knight's post pretty much reveals the three type of achievements I would like to see in place. And to not end my post without any real suggestion of my own...

1. System
I'd like for a more complex achievements system based on a few trees. Similar to skills in that completing an achievement in one level of a category, would unlock new achievements further down the tree.

There could also be a ranking system for achievements. Players progress through this rank "ladder" as they complete more and more achievements and as these achievements are more and more difficult.

2. Rewards
I'm divided into whether achievements should have an impact in-game. I can hear one side arguing that it should since there's an effort involved that should have some form of palpable reward. But I can hear the other side arguing that this will only further the gap between skilled players and non skilled players, which should be something left only for normal gameplay. In other words, palpable rewards that affect the player's "power" should exist strictly in the context of normal gameplay.

If anything, I do lean more towards the notion of a reward. However, it should have no effect in player's power, but instead on the character imagery. The player character could be rendered differently based on their achievements rank or have access to special features like renaming their items (do not confuse with prefixing the player name. I'm talking about full rename), or alter the color of their equipment, etc...

Medals, stars, or Titles, etc, could also be awarded to players.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: D3 Achievements

Uh, of course not, you're arguing an irrelevant point. If you post a lengthy post about how achievements are perfectly implemented, and I post ABSOLUTE CONCLUSIVE PROOF that the Earth revolves around the Sun, would you yield your point?

Heh, I think you changed the direction of this sentence halfway through. This basically says "achievements ARE useful", something you STILL haven't given any evidence of.

What? So I'm defending my points? Wow, what a ridiculous thing to do.

This is just an opinion piece you wrote, and still haven't given ANYTHING to back it up. Do you not understand that? You have come up with a conclusion, dismiss everything that challenges that conclusion as ridiculous, then praised your conclusion for being the only non-ridiculous piece left. Seriously, do you not understand this? Does this not make any sense to you?

Again, you have successfully disproven the claim you put in my mouth. What eludes you is the fact that this is meaningless.

I REALLY don't think you understand what I wrote, and unfortunately, I can't write any simpler. I guess I'll just have to chalk you up as a loss.

What is the point of saying this? Seriously, I don't understand what you're trying to inflict upon me.

If there are 'many', then how come the net count in this thread is 'zero'?

Hahaha, I really like the flow of this:

A: There are no good examples in history
B: It is easy to come up with good ones!
A: Why can't you come up with any?
B: Fine, (1), (2), (3),
A: Those are bad.
B: So what? It's easy to come up with good ones!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Argue against what I say, not what you pretend I said.

You are a complete waste of time and like to go in endless loops instead of saying something useful .. not to mention think yourself smarter than everyone by throwing idioms left and right ... also next time try replying to all my replies ... oh .. wait .. there won't be a next time .. welcome to my ignore list.


Now back to topic

Blizz WILL have achievements, so if it take more time, if they hire someone just to think of all achievements, etc, it doesn't matter, because they are going to have them.

The other arguments are that it can mess up game play if done wrong. Well, sure it can - anything can. So we just need to hope they do it right, but based on how they did achievements in WoW, I think they will do fine.

Well said, there are tons of other things besides achievements that could go wrong ... people are ought to worry more about that .. specially things that are part of the core mechanics of the game not a side-dish type of stuff like achievements which probably could be added, modified or removed with a single patch file.

And they indeed do have experience with WoW .. so if anyone here is willing to make an example it is indeed better to use WoW rather than a very bad exception like using an FPS game (TF2) achievements .. which isn't one bit objective by the way.

If anything, I do lean more towards the notion of a reward. However, it should have no effect in player's power, but instead on the character imagery. The player character could be rendered differently based on their achievements rank or have access to special features like renaming their items (do not confuse with prefixing the player name. I'm talking about full rename), or alter the color of their equipment, etc...

Medals, stars, or Titles, etc, could also be awarded to players.

Right on ... good examples come to mind ... both WoW and Halo 3 Got that right ... Halo 3 achievements unlocked new skins for Multiplayer and new skins for weapons that make them look unique and interesting as a reward ... and WoW also has many examples of that different art or new skin as a rewards .. besides the typical titles and trophies ... which like i said is good for many things like keeping a records of a players and their play style, a measure for people's involvement and for bragging rights of course.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

Could you do me a favor and not make things up and exaggerate? I have a feeling you’ve never even played WoW before. There’s not even a Northern Kingdom in WoW. In my experience, I have never encountered this problem in WoW. I have never had a high level come by and jack my kills and say,”oops, sorry, I’m just doing an achievement,” but even if that did happen, the NPCs/Quest items respawn within a minute anyways, so who cares? This argument does not apply to WoW as far as I'm concerned.

I said "Northern Kingdoms" instead of "Eastern Kingdoms". I guess this completely upturns the fact I:

Got Rank14 in the old PvP system as a rogue
Got gladiator season 2 as a paladin
Main tanked and led raids from MC-Vanilla Naxx as a warrior
Completed all raid content from MC-WOTLK Naxx

I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm done arguing with you since having a discussion with you is about as vapid as having one with this empty orange soda can on my desk. My points have been made, my evidence gathered. You fail to recognize them, or at the least acknowledge their existence. This is the end of my participation in this thread.

PS: Knight_Wolf, please take your "I'm with stupid" t-shirt off.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

I'm done arguing with you since having a discussion with you is about as vapid as having one with this empty orange soda can on my desk. My points have been made, my evidence gathered. You fail to recognize them, or at the least acknowledge their existence. This is the end of my participation in this thread.

I'm with you. Both Knight_Wolf and Krugar seem to confuse 'winning a debate' with 'ignoring the opposing point of view'.

 

[Mad Mantis]

Re: D3 Achievements

It took me ages to read through all that since last night and it is a bit too late to act now. I do not like what I have read one bit. You can all consider this your final warning. Stop insulting the other forum posters. Don't call people trolls, stupid, dense or anything else negative. The next person to break this rule can take an extended vacation from the forums.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Demetrium/stats/TF2?tab=achievements


Does It Hurt When I Do This?
Kill 50 Scouts with your syringe gun.

Consultation
Assist a fellow Medic in killing 5 enemies in a single life.

Peer Review
Kill 50 Medics with your bone saw.

The Achievements in the Medic update were widely regarded as a very stupid thing to do because they embodied almost everything a Medic SHOULDN'T be doing. The achievements in later class updates are very much more inline with how the class should be played.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: D3 Achievements

PS: Knight_Wolf, please take your "I'm with stupid" t-shirt off.

Hahahaha ... bye


Now more on topic (sigh now we have less people derailing it) XD

Since Achievements are going to indeed be in the game and a main feature in B.net2, what other ways could it be made fresh besides what Krugar suggested regarding a tree-like system with ranks for achievements.

Here are some ideas.

-Unique titles for those who challenge an achievement more than once (assuming that it is made possible from the beginning)
-Some achievements have multiple ways to gain.
-Adding extra class specific achievements comes as a natural idea ... but they must be designed with care so as to make the class use it's abilities in interesting ways.


Also more on how do we make sure Achievements stay as a side-dish and not interfere with the other game aspects negatively.

-Making achievements rewards (if added) always cosmetic.
-Making sure there is enough variety to cover all play styles and not encourage a certain type of play style solely to get achievements.
-A cool down period in which achievements can't be obtained ... usually a from few days to a week ... it activates if player obtains too many achievements too fast .. basically a spam counter-measure.

 

[Starving_Poet]

Re: D3 Achievements

Both Siyko and I have now cited how achievements can inconvenience people trying to play the game "normally". We both cited Team Fortress with the exact same example, but apparently it needs to be repeated a third time.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Demetrium/stats/TF2?tab=achievements


Does It Hurt When I Do This?
Kill 50 Scouts with your syringe gun.

Consultation
Assist a fellow Medic in killing 5 enemies in a single life.

Peer Review
Kill 50 Medics with your bone saw.


It took me about 30 seconds to find three achievements that have the potential to (and have, from my experience) negatively impact gameplay for most serious gamers.

As I can only speak from experience: If you're a 'serious' TF2 player, you don't play on pubs.

Unless you are, or attempting to be, sponsored, getting "serious" about a game is a silly.

 

[Krugar]

Re: D3 Achievements

Making sure there is enough variety to cover all play styles and not encourage a certain type of play style solely to get achievements.

I'd say the one and most important! Indeed, Knight!
If achievements can be made more than just a powerplay showcase , I'd be a very happy camper.

Certainly this is not something that can come up as easy on an ARPG. But taking into consideration Blizzard's announced desire to make of Diablo 3 a wider audience game appealing also to the exploration side, I'd like to see some achievements covering this area.

 

[Octale]

Re: D3 Achievements

Further, the achievement system should not be mandatory. If you want a real-world example of such an achievement system, then look no further than Blizzard's most popular and successful game: World of Warcraft.

WoW's achievement system is not optional, in as much as I cannot turn it off. There are tons of achievmenets you get by accident for not sucking at WoW. I don't need the game to validate for me that I don't suck at videogames.

If the achievement system in D3 can be turned off, then I have no problems whatsoever with its inclusion. And, since we've sorta established that it takes no effort to design, implement, and test an achievement system, then it should take even less effort to put a toggle in the options menu for me to turn it off.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: D3 Achievements

WoW's achievement system is not optional, in as much as I cannot turn it off. There are tons of achievmenets you get by accident for not sucking at WoW. I don't need the game to validate for me that I don't suck at videogames.

If the achievement system in D3 can be turned off, then I have no problems whatsoever with its inclusion. And, since we've sorta established that it takes no effort to design, implement, and test an achievement system, then it should take even less effort to put a toggle in the options menu for me to turn it off.

Good point ... but still .. i see no harm if you get some achievements by chance .. they don't bite ... just act as if they aren't there .. it is optional in that you don't have to pursue them if you don't want to .. there is no obligation or game impacting reward you get from doing so.

And indeed it could be possible to turn them off ... but Blizz seems like they want to make it a B.net feature not just for D3 .. since each player will only have one account they want it to keep track of each player's Blizzard gaming level (or something like that .. they mentioned it in one of the interviews) so i don't think they will think of an option to turn it off even if they can do it easily.

Don't forget achievements aren't only for challenges ... like i said before the way Blizz is making them gives them more depth than that .. here is the example categorization i posted few posts ago.

First type:
-Achievements that record normal/typical player progress and activities, like the titles people gotten after finishing D2 on any difficulty, but this time it covers a broader range of things, they work as a record of how much this specific player has made in the game or how much time he/she has been playing ... eventually everyone is ought to get them.

Examples:
-"Transcendent Hero" --> finish game on all three difficulties.
-"Heroes Galore" --> finish the game with all classes on all three difficulties.
-"Butcher" --> kill 1,000,000 monsters
And so on so forth


Second Type:
-This type is like the first, except it is more determinant to player style rather than his/her general progress, it focuses on certain activities taken to an extreme, they aren't a big challenge but they will immediately tell you what kind of player that person is, they include team oriented AS and activity specific AS.

-"Explorer" --> complete 100 optional quests
-"Majestic Trader" --> trade 1000 items
-"Die Hard" --> complete HC mode 20 times
-"Teamwork" --> Kill 10,000 monsters while in a team
And so on so forth



Third Type:
-That's where the real challenges are, they are made for those who want to try something crazy and unusual.

-"Naked Warrior" --> complete the game 5 times on "Hell" without wearing items and without using items to kill any monsters.
-"Armed to the Teeth" --> complete the game 5 times on "Hell" without investing in or using any skills (passive or active).

 

[Vitamins]

Re: D3 Achievements

WoW's achievement system is not optional, in as much as I cannot turn it off. There are tons of achievmenets you get by accident for not sucking at WoW.

It's optional in the sense that you can ignore it without any repercussions. True, ignoring it will not stop the occasional "YOU'VE UNLOCKED SO-AND-SO!" but that doesn't actually bother you, does it?

I don't need the game to validate for me that I don't suck at videogames.

Then you must be against character progression altogether.

 

[Octale]

Re: D3 Achievements

It's optional in the sense that you can ignore it without any repercussions. True, ignoring it will not stop the occasional "YOU'VE UNLOCKED SO-AND-SO!" but that doesn't actually bother you, does it?



Then you must be against character progression altogether.

I guess I am going to let my scrubbiness show, but getting achievements has gotten me killed a couple of times playing XBLA games. I react to information on the screen; maybe that's a personal shortcoming (although I don't see how), but yes, it does bother me, and yes, given the choice I would turn the entire system off.

To be clear, character progression is what tells me I'm not terrible at whatever game I am playing, so obviously progression is a good thing. What I do not need or want is a secondary system that amounts to the game saying, "Yeah, and *ANOTHER* thing! You don't suck!" getting in the way of me doing whatever as efficiently as humanly possible, which is why I am playing the game in the first place.

Good point ... but still .. i see no harm if you get some achievements by chance .. they don't bite ... just act as if they aren't there .. it is optional in that you don't have to pursue them if you don't want to .. there is no obligation or game impacting reward you get from doing so.

And indeed it could be possible to turn them off ... but Blizz seems like they want to make it a B.net feature not just for D3 .. since each player will only have one account they want it to keep track of each player's Blizzard gaming level (or something like that .. they mentioned it in one of the interviews) so i don't think they will think of an option to turn it off even if they can do it easily.

I don't want to let Blizz off the hook on the subject of replayability by letting them bounce up and down saying "No, we *have* replayability, look at all these Achievements!!" IMHO, achievements are not content. They don't bite, it's true, but it is the lazy dev's way of falsely adding content and replayability (again, IMO. Those that think achievements are content are entitled to that opinion, but I do not, and never will, share that opinon.) I don't care about Blizzard gamer score, other than to say it is only going to be used to degrade other people's opinions, which would be a strong reason to not include them at all.