D3 Achievements

[5zigen]

Re: D3 Achievements

Did anyone else play Mythos in beta (before its' tragic end)? I think they implemented achievements as well as any game I've ever played.

The game played just like D2, with a lot of bosses being killed repeatedly (but a much larger variety of bosses), so a lot of the achievements were something like:
-Spiderslayer - killed spider boss 10 times - +10% damage to spider class
-Healer - used 500 potions - +5 vitality

And this is where it got good.. you had a certain number of "achievement slots". And you got a new slot for every 10 levels. So at level 20, you could have the bonuses from 3 achievements, but by then you probably had 15-20 to choose from, so there were a lot of customization possibilities.

I hated the achievement system in mythos It was my one gripe about the game.

Simply because so many of the achievements involved such meaningless repetition, or weren't actually achievements (squishing 100 spiders? Really? Breaking 25 barrels? Seriously that's an "achievement"?)

 

[Krugar]

Re: D3 Achievements

In any case, it can't be denied using achievements as a means for character customization seems an interesting idea.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

Achievements really have two parts.

1) How are they earned?
2) What do they do?

In the xbox titles I've played, the answer for 2 is nothing. The answer for 1 is slightly more complex, and has three answers:

a) playing the game as normal (f/i: complete level 1)
b) completing some arbitrary challenge (f/i: beat the spider boss with only the pistol)
c) fill up a mundane quota (f/i: beat the game 10 times)

I don't think anyone sees value in a), and I'd bet most people get most of their value in b). So if we weed out these, then we have, in the scope of xbox:

1) complete an arbitrary challenge
2) nothing happens

Now, an example of a game I've seen break this mold is Team Fortress 2. When you complete a certain number of achievements, you get this new weapon. TF2 had achievements from all three categories of varying dedication to get. Now, TF2 is a multiplayer-based game, so there exist a couple challenges in this unlockable content:

i) the weapons cannot provide a clear advantage over 'default' weapons. This would force players to fulfill these arbitrary tasks in order to be on the same level as those who do (tf2 was less than successful here)
ii) the unlockable content must be desirable - folks need a reason to earn these weapons. This must not violate i).

This is not a hard task from the developer's point of view - it's easy to nerf the damage of something an add a random mod with the advantage "about equal" to the damage nerf. From the player's perspective, it can be plenty frustrating, as we complain about the backburner giving NO reason to use the default pyro weapon, or the cloak+dagger being a neccessity to be a viable spy. But this isn't where the problems lie either.

The problem is this: The game is asking the players to devote time to these achievements in order to experience the full game. THAT is the problem with any sort of reward being put next to an achievement. If I have to kill Duriel 20 times in order to get the 'homing arrow' ability, and I'm a fan of the game, then guess what: I have to kill Duriel 20 times.

So what if we assume that criteria a) and c) for achivements are gone, and simply 'complete a challenging task' is left? Well, a player may look at this and say "why should I?" I want to tear stuff up as a barbarian, I want to beat the game, I want to get whirlwind, I want to go back and run the Pits again. I can do any of these, fulfilling my WANTS.

Then comes this part: I want to get as much HP as possible. Well, now I have to beat catacombs in under 4 minutes.

See the difference? You're not letting me make my own task and beat it, you're holding a carrot in front of me and telling me a task I have to make. I'm going to borrow this analogy from David Wong:

Humans only find repetition enjoyable when they choose it.

Let's say you sit on your bed one afternoon and, out of boredom, fling playing cards at a hat for two hours straight, just to pass the time. You amuse yourself trying to hit 10 in a row.

Now imagine it's later in the evening and you're about to have sex with your girl. Suddenly she sits up and says, "Wait! We can't do it until you fling 10 cards into that hat over there! It's a rule in the obscure religion I practice!"

Will you enjoy the card flinging this time? No, and in fact the repetition you found enjoyable before will become maddening, as you flip cards around your frustrated, wilting manhood.

This is what happens when desirable bonuses are given through achivements.

So, after all this, what are we left with? Criteria b), complete an arbitrary challenging task, and result 2) nothing happens. E-peen, leaderboards, whatever. Now we're not even talking about achivements, we're talking about a high score list, which should be handled differently, if at all.

 

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Re: D3 Achievements

Achievements really have two parts.

1) How are they earned?
2) What do they do?

In the xbox titles I've played, the answer for 2 is nothing. The answer for 1 is slightly more complex, and has three answers:
<snip>

I take it you didn't play Mass Effect, then?
Some achievements got you a boost to either damage, shield, health and possibly other things (Don't recall completely) on every career/character. It was a nice touch, because it made subsequent playthroughs (on higher difficulty settings) a tidbit easier. Iirc, the max you could get from those achievements in terms of Health was +15%. That would be quite a lot for a multiplayer game, though.. 3000 -> 3450. 450 health can save your ***.

Anyhow, I kinda like achievements (time sink, whee?), but won't miss 'em if they're not in.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

I take it you didn't play Mass Effect, then?
Some achievements got you a boost to either damage, shield, health and possibly other things (Don't recall completely) on every career/character. It was a nice touch, because it made subsequent playthroughs (on higher difficulty settings) a tidbit easier. Iirc, the max you could get from those achievements in terms of Health was +15%. That would be quite a lot for a multiplayer game, though.. 3000 -> 3450. 450 health can save your ***.

Anyhow, I kinda like achievements (time sink, whee?), but won't miss 'em if they're not in.

Hi, the rest of my post addresses this directly.

 

[phool]

Re: D3 Achievements

If anyone has any serious criticism of immaterial achievements that challenge players in ways outside the usual course of play or to a lesser extent through non-repetitive optimisation such as speedruns, I'd be interested to hear it. Although the latter case is starting to enter territory with some slight potential for fostering elitism, I must point out that, even allowing as given the questionable validity of such a complaint, that this has extremely limited application where achievements cannot be 'worn', i.e. made visible to other players without using apps external to the game.


Look at some of the achievements of members of the single player community here at diii. These range from the vanilla patting of each class type to completing the game on a naked zon (Superdave) and collecting various standards of grails. Most of these have nothing to do with epeen, scoreboards, or "+5 to vita"; they simply represent some of the ways in which many players have found to extend the life of the game. Yet here something that constitutes at the least little more than a suggestion list for ways players to increase their variety of play and challenge themselves receives such vitriolic criticism?


It seems many here will often rush to dichotomise of resource assignment in game creation. Certainly there is more work in implementing and debugging achievements than some in this thread would suggest but, just as critics of easter eggs are wrong to directly correlate any novelty material to lost serious content, it's a gross misrepresentation to equate time spent brainstorming fun and interesting ways to play the game to time spent coding an extra iteration of an enemy model.

 

[zaxxon]

Re: D3 Achievements

Personally, I find achievements worthless and a waste of time, even when there's a reward for them. Ultimately, I view achievements as a bandaid for deficiencies in the core game. If the core is good, there's no need for achievements.

 

[Drakk]

Re: D3 Achievements

Personally, I find achievements worthless and a waste of time, even when there's a reward for them. Ultimately, I view achievements as a bandaid for deficiencies in the core game. If the core is good, there's no need for achievements.

I completely agree :thumbup:

 

[Vitamins]

Re: D3 Achievements

An achievement system can quickly become monotonous if the achievements are too easy to obtain, or if the achievements are inevitably obtained without difficulty. Although achievements for reaching level 10, 30, 50, etc., could be interesting because they could be used as a record for your progress. But achievements like “YOU DISCOVERED THE WETLANDS!” (WoW reference) are pointless because it’s something you’d achieve by just playing the game. Really, who cares about discovering a common area for the 100th time on your 100th alt? “You unlocked the achievement: Turning On Your Computer! Congratulations!” A cool achievement would be killing a certain monster a certain number of times within a specified time, provided the feat was actually challenging and not something everyone can do.

As for the people who say an achievement system is just about boosting players’ e-tits: What’s your problem with competition? There are people who like to compete, win, maybe be awarded, and then brag about it. So what? If you don’t want to grind a monster or do so-and-so for said achievement, then don’t, but don’t limit everybody else’s options by trying to prevent such a system from being implemented in the first place. That’s just selfish. It’s not like we’re talking about a mind-boggling complicated system that’s going to soak up lots of development time and money. Moreover, such systems are not mandatory (at least they shouldn't be) and they in no way "dictate" how people play games. That's just a ridiculous exaggeration.

 

[Octale]

Re: D3 Achievements

Look at some of the achievements of members of the single player community here at diii. These range from the vanilla patting of each class type to completing the game on a naked zon (Superdave) and collecting various standards of grails. Most of these have nothing to do with epeen, scoreboards, or "+5 to vita"; they simply represent some of the ways in which many players have found to extend the life of the game. Yet here something that constitutes at the least little more than a suggestion list for ways players to increase their variety of play and challenge themselves receives such vitriolic criticism?

Why, if a person is so hellbent on playing the game an alternate way, does that person need auditory and visual fellatio to validate the way they are playing?

Why, for that matter, does a person playing the way the designers intended need auditory and visual fellatio to validate that they are doing the right things? You'd think progressing through the game would be enough.

 

[Vitamins]

Re: D3 Achievements

Why, if a person is so hellbent on playing the game an alternate way, does that person need auditory and visual fellatio to validate the way they are playing?

Why, for that matter, does a person playing the way the designers intended need auditory and visual fellatio to validate that they are doing the right things? You'd think progressing through the game would be enough.

There's some irony here. All videogames use autitory and visual cues as well as rewards for stimulation and entertainment purposes. In fact... that's how progress is measured in videogames. So, your line of logic argues against an achievement system, but also the very idea of games. Good job.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

There's some irony here. All videogames use autitory and visual cues as well as rewards for stimulation and entertainment purposes. In fact... that's how progress is measured in videogames. So, your line of logic argues against an achievement system, but also the very idea of games. Good job.

This is true if and only if the game can only be played one way, completely linearly. This is not the case with Diablo 3.

Look at Final Fantasy 1. Some people beat it with a single white mage - that's friggin hard. I'm sure it was quite a puzzle to solve (before guides came out) and folks wondered if it was possible.

What if there was an achivement "beat the game with a single white mage"? Well, you're basically in the same position, except now you KNOW its possible, AND the developers have already done it, so we've already detracted something from the experience.

I love coming up with challenges for games and fulfilling them, I dont see why I need the game developers to come up with a list of challenges - it feels very condescending when "Clear the catacombs in 4 minutes" is right next to "Open a treasure chest".

Basically, if it's an achievement, then the developers have made sure it's doable by most people - and if it's doable by most people, then it's hardly an 'achievement'. It's just a task that you have been asked to do for no reason.

 

[Krugar]

Re: D3 Achievements

There's some irony here. All videogames use autitory and visual cues as well as rewards for stimulation and entertainment purposes. In fact... that's how progress is measured in videogames. So, your line of logic argues against an achievement system, but also the very idea of games. Good job.

Precisely. A game is all about achievements, whether they are explicit in the form of an Achievements System, or implicit in the form of Game Objectives, Questing, item hunting, etc...

Why having both (and on top of that making one of them entirely optional) is a matter for visceral criticism is really beyond me. Perhaps it's the new fad... Criticize Achievements! Just do it! Nike style!

Personally, I'm ok both ways. With or without. Would like for them to be implemented since I always played Diablo with some sort of a personal Achievements system. But if they are not, I'm not going to lose my sleep.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

Why having both (and on top of that making one of them entirely optional) is a matter for visceral criticism is really beyond me. Perhaps it's the new fad... Criticize Achievements! Just do it! Nike style!

Maybe you should read some of the posts in this topic before you try to be the voice of reason.

 

[Krugar]

Re: D3 Achievements

I have, of course. In fact I posted pretty early on the thread. This will take a few more pages of empy argumenting. So page 4 is really just the start. In any case, I have been following the debate, thank you. And none of the arguments so far convinced me. So... to be perfectly clear, I'll repeat...

Why having both (and on top of that making one of them entirely optional) is a matter for visceral criticism is really beyond me. Perhaps it's the new fad... Criticize Achievements! Just do it! Nike style!

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

Why having both (and on top of that making one of them entirely optional) is a matter for visceral criticism is really beyond me

In this case I must take issue with your reading comprehension. Points have been raised stating precisely that.

-takes development time away from other areas
-patronizes 'outside-the-box' play
-distracts players from the core game, especially in the context of co-op

these are just off the top of my head. If you like them, fine, but if your argument is "the other side hasn't said anything!" then you just look foolish.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: D3 Achievements

In this case I must take issue with your reading comprehension. Points have been raised stating precisely that.

-takes development time away from other areas
-patronizes 'outside-the-box' play
-distracts players from the core game, especially in the context of co-op

these are just off the top of my head. If you like them, fine, but if your argument is "the other side hasn't said anything!" then you just look foolish.

-Sigh .. the whole take development time argument doesn't really make much sense .. the game doesn't have a set release date and as we know it is ready when it is ready ... so they have enough time to develop everything they want the way they want it .... and achievements specially are simple tweaks on existing code or formulas in the game ..... no big deal at all compared to the other time consuming process in the game making process.

Actually i expect a ton of new achievements with every new patch ... it's no big deal at all really.


-Out of the Box gameplay will happen one way or another .... specially that some people like a fresh challenge or something new to do (like playing the game in a new way after getting bored of the normal way) ... so why not make it worth while for them as well.


-Wow .. we aren't a 5 years old kids ... if anyone doesn't care about achievements he/she can easily steer clear of them, those who want them and don't want Co-Op will either way do their thing ... those who want Co-Op will play Co-Op because they WANT to not because there are no achievements.

 

[Krugar]

Re: D3 Achievements

Knight_Wolf pretty much addressed it. I have nothing much more to add.
Arguments against Achievements are very weak and seem like desperate attempts to give some meaning to what is essentially a fortuitous distaste for Achievements.

but if your argument is "the other side hasn't said anything!" then you just look foolish.

I think this is I who should take issue with your reading comprehension. Instead of immediately moving on to the attack, check your defenses. What I said was that I didn't agree with the arguments against Achievements.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

-Sigh .. the whole take development time argument doesn't really make much sense .. the game doesn't have a set release date and as we know it is ready when it is ready ... so they have enough time to develop everything they want the way they want it .... and achievements specially are simple tweaks on existing code or formulas in the game ..... no big deal at all compared to the other time consuming process in the game making process.

Actually i expect a ton of new achievements with every new patch ... it's no big deal at all really.

No big deal? You are basing this off what exactly?

This same (faulty) argument could be used to support absolutely any theoretical feature. The point is implementing ANYTHING (including achievements) is never trivial. There's brainstorming, design, development, core testing, implementation, QA, redesign, and documentation. ALL of this is required, and none of it is trivial.

Why not have a 'make your own class'? Why not have alternative color palletes? Why not have a map editor? Why not have an extra 'joke' class?

Because it's not as good as other things that should be in the game.

I hate to break your illusion, but Blizzard is a company seeking to make money, and like it or not, their games DO have a deadline. It might be far away, but there is a point where it becomes more harmful to wait than to release it, and at that point they will release it.

-Out of the Box gameplay will happen one way or another .... specially that some people like a fresh challenge or something new to do (like playing the game in a new way after getting bored of the normal way) ... so why not make it worth while for them as well.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. People like fresh challenges and making up their own gameplay, this is true. This is, however, counter-intuitive to achievements which simply grant the user another list of things to do.

Make it worth their while? Are you implying rewards for achievements now? Because I wrote a pretty long post about why that's a horrible idea.

-Wow .. we aren't a 5 years old kids ... if anyone doesn't care about achievements he/she can easily steer clear of them, those who want them and don't want Co-Op will either way do their thing ... those who want Co-Op will play Co-Op because they WANT to not because there are no achievements.

Ever play TF2 after one of the class updates?

"why didn't you heal me?"
"im trying to get the 'win a round without healing anyone' achievement"

If you don't see any potential of this in D3, I ask you to come up with a list of achievements you would like to see that will not create a similar situation.

 

[Siyko]

Re: D3 Achievements

Knight_Wolf pretty much addressed it. I have nothing much more to add.
Arguments against Achievements are very weak and seem like desperate attempts to give some meaning to what is essentially a fortuitous distaste for Achievements.



I think this is I who should take issue with your reading comprehension. Instead of immediately moving on to the attack, check your defenses. What I said was that I didn't agree with the arguments against Achievements.

You actually haven't posted anything in this thread in support of achievements. You have said, basically

"it cannot be argued that achivements are interesting"

"i agree, achivements are good"

and this post.

Check my defenses? You're not responding to any of my points! How can you claim a strong position when you refuse to engage the other side? You're basically holding your fingers in your ears saying "no you're wrong, they're good".

There's plenty of anti-achievement points in this thread and you haven't specifically taken issue with any of them, you've just swept them all aside as "not good enough". That makes you as reputable as someone who has not even read the thread.