D3 Achievements

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

I'm gonna repeat something I said before. Achievements can add a new layer of depth to a game. The fist time through, you may not even pay attention to them. Maybe you even earn a few by happenstance. But eventually, you'll be able to go through and try to earn them, try to find all the "elite" monsters. Or complete 50 unrequired quests, maybe find the unicorn... It's just another thing to do. You shouldn't really complain that it's pointless, because the whole dam thing is pointless - come on - it's a game! It's all about the journey.

How many of you tried to beat Quake 2 with just the blaster? Well I did! Now where is my badge?

I still don't understand why you couldn't do these things before they were achievements. Your Quake 2 example is a demonstration of how people will do these things independently if they feel like it. They don't need encouragement. I killed Hitler in Wolfenstine using only the pistol when I was like 8 years old. Why? I guess I was bored and wanted to test my own skill. It wasn't sitting on some list that I felt compelled to cross every line off of.

Call me pretentious, but a predominant reason why achievements drive me up a wall is the metrics they use:

"Do every 1750 quests in Eastern Kingdoms" - Timesink
"Win a duel" - This was going to happen anyway
"Die to every class once in Warsong Gulch" - This is something to be proud of?

Don't get me wrong --- I definitely think there are some things that deserve to be tracked. I'm sure everyone has different opinions, but I feel achievements should be only significant milestones such as:

Obtain gladiator in an arena season
Obtain High Warlord
Realm first boss defeat

In a lot of cases I don't think these milestones even need to be tracked by achievements. If you get gladiator in WoW you get a fast mount, a title, and recorded on the website. High Warlord got you a title and some of the best weapons available at the time.

When I played WoW as a competitive raider, I honestly felt cheated by achievements. More and more they started designing boss encounters around them to try and prolong content when it was already coming out at a torpid pace. To me it seemed like an excuse more than anything to release 1 boss with alternate winning conditions then to actually go through the trouble of designing a second boss, or even just doing a better job on the encounter in general. Who wants to blow through a dungeon in a week because all the encounters are super easy, just to spend the next 3 months beating the same fights a different way? I don't. They should have been difficult to begin with.

I guess it all really boils down to what you find personally as a source of enjoyment. If you find getting every tailoring recipe in a game satisfying, I can't stop you but I also don't think you deserve to have any recognition for it. That being said, I feel if you did something truly recognizable, you'll remember it without it being on some list and the people around you will acknowledge it as well.

 

[Kaeros]

Re: D3 Achievements

When I played WoW as a competitive raider, I honestly felt cheated by achievements. More and more they started designing boss encounters around them to try and prolong content when it was already coming out at a torpid pace. To me it seemed like an excuse more than anything to release 1 boss with alternate winning conditions then to actually go through the trouble of designing a second boss, or even just doing a better job on the encounter in general. Who wants to blow through a dungeon in a week because all the encounters are super easy, just to spend the next 3 months beating the same fights a different way? I don't. They should have been difficult to begin with.

This is totally unrelated to the thread's topic, but briefly ... Hard Mode boss achievements were implemented so that casuals could experience end-game content while competitive raiding guilds still had a way to challenge themselves for extra reward/incentive. I think something like 15% of the player-base ever even saw Illidan, which is clearly a problem from a gameplay and development standpoint. If you're worried about wasting development time, it doesn't get much worse than spending months to create a dungeon that only a fraction of the player-base ever sees.

I guess it all really boils down to what you find personally as a source of enjoyment.

/thread.

 

[sinned]

Re: D3 Achievements

There are no such achievements in WoW as "Die to every class once in Warsong Gulch". And I've seen lvl 80s with 0 honorable kills, so not everyone gets easy achievements eventually.

They can be a great source of information about a player - I wouldn't team up for arena with someone who doesn't even have an honorable kill or no achievements from battlegrounds.

Timesink is something many achievements aim for. It provides additional stuff to do, which many find fun. And since achievements are easy to code, don't take much of the resources and provide an additional layer to the game, even while being meaningless (gaming is also meaningless as someone already pointed out), then including them is good choice. What's even better, those who don't like them needn't complete them. A win-win.

 

[Brandonn]

Re: D3 Achievements

@Demetrium

I understand most your points. It sounds like you had a bad experience with them - to the point it ruined part of the game for you.

If Blizzard were to add in Achievements, but made a toggle so they wouldn't show, unless you wanted them to, would you still not like it? I mean, they'd be there for those that like them, and could be essentially hidden for those that don't.

I don't necessarily like "timesink" achievements. Then again, something like "kill 100 monsters" I wouldn't go out just to do it, as I know it would happen eventually, but it would be satisfying for me when that little badge pops up with a picture of a sad fallen.

I never thought of achievements as "recognition". I know the title is "achievements" but that's not how I see them. I don't like them because someone is saying good job. I like them because I think they are fun little trinkets to collect. Heck, I don't play ANY game to get recognition, it's a dam game. I live in the real world, I have a wife and kids and a job, if I want recognition, I'll do something in one of those worlds.

Games I play for fun, and if achievements can make D3 more fun, I say add it in. If most people honestly don't like it, I'd rather Blizz not add it in. I was more excited to talk about _what_ achievements people could think of, but the topic never went that direction - that's ok...

Anyway, I think I'm off topic of my own topic - I can't tell.

 

[skyf]

Re: D3 Achievements

If you think about it D2 already has achievements because after you defeat baal (LoD) in normal you become Slayer *InsertCharNameHere* Then in nm i think its matriarchal or something. You get one for every difficulty. Basically you "achieve" a title for defeating baal.

 

[phool]

Re: D3 Achievements

Good achievements are incentives to play the game in ways not immediately obvious; completing the game in hardcore, completing the game naked, completing the game in a limited period of time with no trading, complete the game with only DoT damage, complete the game with a barbarian using only ranged weapons, complete the game with a sorceress using non direct-damage skills, and so on. They have no material benefit but and preferably do not encourage elitism, instead serving to nudge - but not compel - players towards ways they may extend the life of the game.

Bad achievements are counters that reward doing the same thing repetitively or have significant non-cosmetic benefits.

Honestly I'm generally wary of excess reliance on meta in games because it's symptiomatic of a game designed for casuals, favouring superficial hooks over solid core gameplay, depth or challenge. Great when done well though - example which does achievements right.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

@Demetrium
If Blizzard were to add in Achievements, but made a toggle so they wouldn't show, unless you wanted them to, would you still not like it? I mean, they'd be there for those that like them, and could be essentially hidden for those that don't.

Unfortunately, yes. Look at it this way. You go to this awesome steakhouse and get a delicious steak with a side of rice pilaf. The steak is amazing. You love it. The bad news is, you're not a fan of rice pilaf --- you don't eat it at all. Don't you wish you could trade it for even the smallest mouthful of steak?

Someone, if not a few people, are spending their time inventing and implementing achievements in D3, a game I've been looking forward to forever. This one person could be doing so many other things to improve the game. Class balance, item creation, bug testing, full body massages for Jay Wilson. Heck, he could not be employed at all and Blizzard could pay the other designers another $500/yr.

D3 is my steak, and I would give up a heaping bowl of achievements for one more tiny mouthful.

 

[Brandonn]

Re: D3 Achievements

Well, I'd easily give up achievements if it meant the game coming out a month earlier. But you have to be careful with that thinking, because sometimes games do come out before they are ready with stuff cut, and the game is no good. However D3 will be great with or without achievements. But Blizzard will do whatever they think is best, and they won't release it until they feel it's done. So I'm not worried. But I can defiantly understand that concern, I want D3 now!

 

[Dahmer]

Re: D3 Achievements

In terms programming/designing adding another person to the project doesn't always mean it will get done quicker and there's also the chance that the person coming up with achievements is a creative genius but no good at fixing bugs.
I think Blizzard knows what they're doing

@skyf :
Very true, forgot about that

 

[CaptainDingo]

Re: D3 Achievements

Unfortunately, yes. Look at it this way. You go to this awesome steakhouse and get a delicious steak with a side of rice pilaf. The steak is amazing. You love it. The bad news is, you're not a fan of rice pilaf --- you don't eat it at all. Don't you wish you could trade it for even the smallest mouthful of steak?

Someone, if not a few people, are spending their time inventing and implementing achievements in D3, a game I've been looking forward to forever. This one person could be doing so many other things to improve the game. Class balance, item creation, bug testing, full body massages for Jay Wilson. Heck, he could not be employed at all and Blizzard could pay the other designers another $500/yr.

D3 is my steak, and I would give up a heaping bowl of achievements for one more tiny mouthful.

Of course, then you're denying other people pilaf just because you don't like it, and are turning it into what only you want.

I hate to have to be the fly of logic buzzing annoyingly, but Blizzard is filthy rich. If they don't have enough manpower to put achievements into the game without taking resources away from other areas, they'll just hire another guy to do it.

It's not that hard.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

Of course, then you're denying other people pilaf just because you don't like it, and are turning it into what only you want.

I also don't expect people to be ordering a steak with rice, peas, corn, potatoes, salad, asparagus, and squash. It's unrealistic and detracts from the meal. Of course there are going to be some things I don't want in the game that other people do. I'm just explaining my thoughts on this feature and my reasons for having them. This is one of the things these forums are traditionally used for.

I hate to have to be the fly of logic buzzing annoyingly, but Blizzard is filthy rich. If they don't have enough manpower to put achievements into the game without taking resources away from other areas, they'll just hire another guy to do it.

It's not that hard.

Too many cooks spoil the broth. I think its safe to say, for various reasons, their development resources are not unlimited. Again, any energy spent on achievements is a waste of time, effort, and resources in my opinion. Its very unlikely you'll be able to convince me otherwise.

 

[Dahmer]

Re: D3 Achievements

Games are for fun, for people to enjoy themselves.
I alone know several that enjoy themselves with achievements (including myself).
How can it be a waste of time when it does what it has to do.

 

[konfeta]

Re: D3 Achievements

Again, any energy spent on achievements is a waste of time, effort, and resources in my opinion. Its very unlikely you'll be able to convince me otherwise.

That's just wonderful, because absolutely no one has too. Achievements are going to be in, people who enjoy them will be happy, and you will keep grumbling about wasted resources. There is a reason every other company jumped on this "fad." Most people seem to enjoy the concept. As far as Blizzard is concerned, this makes implementation of achievements a worthy endeavor.

 

[Telzen]

Re: D3 Achievements

Most people are dumbasses too.

 

[Teleportation]

Re: D3 Achievements

Most people are dumbasses too.

Boohoo. :alright:

 

[Edeas_Knight]

Re: D3 Achievements

Really guys? Complaining about achievements? If you do not like them you can either ignore them or just not "waste" your time to complete them.

The way I see it, achievements don't hurt anyone, but some, if not most people(myself included) like them. They can give you something different to do instead of normal mfing/leveling/dungeon runs etc. It can break up some of the monotony of a game after you have been playing it for a while. I agree, some achievements are kinda ridiculous/time sink that I would probably never bother with,(exploring all of the eastern kingdoms/kalimdor in WoW rings a bell) some people love this kinda thing and will not stop playing until they get that achievement.

From a company standpoint that is great. You have someone playing for hours, maybe days just to complete one of hundreds of possible achievements. You are keeping the customer without adding any additional content, just a challenge.

And as long as achievements don't give any real advantage over players who haven't completed them such as a title, cosmetic differences ,etc., what's the big deal?

 

[Drakk]

Re: D3 Achievements

what's the big deal?

I think the problem is that the people who choose not to spend their hours completing countless tasks will have an apparent lower status than those who do. Even though most of those tasks that have been completed have really nothing to do with being good at the game.

It is only fuel to fire the e-penis competitions and could quite possibly ruin the cohesiveness of co-op play that Blizzard is trying to encourage. In my previous post I stated how I think a useful "achievement" system could work for pvp. It is actually just an intuitive ranking system, but I really hope we don't get subjected to pointless tasks to increase our "battle.net score."

 

[Octale]

Re: D3 Achievements

what's the big deal?

Implementation is everything with achievement systems, and it does take design and development resources to implement. The supporters of the achievement system try and dismiss the resource load as trivial, or claim that some kid out of college could do it, which is simply not true. The brainstorming acitivity for the list of potential achievments alone took the entire design team, an Activision marketing person, and at least one member of the group that is actually coding the system no less than 4 hours, and potentially as long as 2 *days* to complete. That was just brainstorming a list. Then you have to actually design the system, write the documentation, get the design approved, and get the system coded. This amount of resources is not trivial in any way. So, for my money, if the choice comes down to more items, zones, quests, mobs, bosses, or contriavance "content" designed to provide what every great videogame has had inherently (replayability), I chose the real content.

The negative effect of achievements in forums, etc. is self-evident, so I won't go through a long-winded arguement to prove it...just go look at the WoW forums.

I suppose, if you have to waste the resources anyway, so long as the achievement system can be turned off, I can't really offer much resistance to the system's inclusion. Just please don't come back 6 months after release asking where all the content is because you know where it is.

 

[mrschofield]

Re: D3 Achievements

Did anyone else play Mythos in beta (before its' tragic end)? I think they implemented achievements as well as any game I've ever played.

The game played just like D2, with a lot of bosses being killed repeatedly (but a much larger variety of bosses), so a lot of the achievements were something like:
-Spiderslayer - killed spider boss 10 times - +10% damage to spider class
-Healer - used 500 potions - +5 vitality

And this is where it got good.. you had a certain number of "achievement slots". And you got a new slot for every 10 levels. So at level 20, you could have the bonuses from 3 achievements, but by then you probably had 15-20 to choose from, so there were a lot of customization possibilities.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

Did anyone else play Mythos in beta (before its' tragic end)? I think they implemented achievements as well as any game I've ever played.

The game played just like D2, with a lot of bosses being killed repeatedly (but a much larger variety of bosses), so a lot of the achievements were something like:
-Spiderslayer - killed spider boss 10 times - +10% damage to spider class
-Healer - used 500 potions - +5 vitality

And this is where it got good.. you had a certain number of "achievement slots". And you got a new slot for every 10 levels. So at level 20, you could have the bonuses from 3 achievements, but by then you probably had 15-20 to choose from, so there were a lot of customization possibilities.

This is a thing I really don't like about achievements. I am very much against rewarding someone based purely on repetition, or time. Diablo 1 gave you information about the monsters, their damage, resistances, etc based on kills (which I am completely fine with) but innate bonuses do not float my boat.