D3 Achievements

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

Achievements are, in my opinion, the worst thing to come to gaming within the last few years.

First off, nobody has to dictate to me the goals of/how to play a video game. I can figure this out on my own just fine. If I want to collect every item in a game, I'll go ahead and do it on my own fruition. It doesn't have to be grayed out on some list for me, waiting to be unlocked.

Every ounce of effort put into achievements is time wasted that could have been better spent elsewhere. I don't care if it's more content, more in-game testing, or whatever, but it's certainly more useful than working on achievements. Don't try to argue that achievements are content either --- they aren't. They make use of original content by making you revisit it.

It may be minimal, but achievements have an impact on performance. Achievement to take 50,000 steps? There's a counter sitting there incrementing itself every time you step. Kill 500 enemies in a row without taking damage? There's an if statement running there watching the condition. Sure, these little routines running probably don't really take up too much CPU time, but I don't care. I hate achievements so much if I even lose one frame per second due to them I'll be extremely pissed off.

Achievements typically impact gameplay for the worse. Ever play Team Fortress 2? Ever have your medic not heal you at all and run around trying to stab people with his Bonesaw? He's probably trying to get an achievement. Many achievements are counter-productive and force the player to be doing things that they shouldn't be doing, negatively impacting other people's experiences.

Achievements try to reward you for things you were probably going to do eventually anyway. Congratulations, you got level 50! Congratulations, you died 500 times! Congratulations, you joined 300 games! How could you ever get a sense of accomplishment or gratitude from this? The majority of achievements are nothing but useless time-sinks.

I really, really hate achievements.

 

[CaptainDingo]

Re: D3 Achievements

Did they kill your mother?

 

[Drakk]

Re: D3 Achievements

I am against achievements, err.. I'm against the way achievements have been implemented in games so far. I don't want some cheesy achievement system where it tracks absolutely useless information only resulting in a comparisson of ePenis size between immature internet kids.

I would, however, like an achievement system that was useful.

As in, using pvp related achievement information to generate a list of players online with similar stats to battle. This information could be used to create rankings in different divisions for ladder tournaments. This could be expanded to include guild vs. guild tournaments and group (2v2, 3v3, etc.) tournys as well.

There are endless possibilities of how achievements could be turned into stats for a useful purpose, instead of the "Congratulations you reached level 10!" Like seriously.. everyone can already see what level you are, do you really need a pat on the back every increment of 10 levels?!? Seems pretty trivial to me.

 

[Kaeros]

Re: D3 Achievements

Every ounce of effort put into achievements is time wasted that could have been better spent elsewhere. I don't care if it's more content, more in-game testing, or whatever, but it's certainly more useful than working on achievements. Don't try to argue that achievements are content either --- they aren't. They make use of original content by making you revisit it.

I enjoy Achievements, and at least half the other posters on this thread do, too. The minimal effort involved isn't useless, IMO.

It may be minimal, but achievements have an impact on performance. Achievement to take 50,000 steps? There's a counter sitting there incrementing itself every time you step. Kill 500 enemies in a row without taking damage? There's an if statement running there watching the condition. Sure, these little routines running probably don't really take up too much CPU time, but I don't care. I hate achievements so much if I even lose one frame per second due to them I'll be extremely pissed off.

Bull and you know it.

Achievements typically impact gameplay for the worse. Ever play Team Fortress 2? Ever have your medic not heal you at all and run around trying to stab people with his Bonesaw? He's probably trying to get an achievement. Many achievements are counter-productive and force the player to be doing things that they shouldn't be doing, negatively impacting other people's experiences.

There's good achievements and bad achievements. However, I've never once had a negative experience in any game because someone was busy trying to net a particular title. In fact, I've had some really amusing experiences because of it, esp. during the WoW holiday events.

Achievements try to reward you for things you were probably going to do eventually anyway. Congratulations, you got level 50! Congratulations, you died 500 times! Congratulations, you joined 300 games! How could you ever get a sense of accomplishment or gratitude from this? The majority of achievements are nothing but useless time-sinks.

It's a mental thing, much like the victory fanfare in Final Fantasy. It doesn't have to be there and you know you're leveling up anyway, but it is an encouraging little tidbit of gaming code. Personally, I enjoy the little pop-ups here and there that remind me of my progress or 'reward' me for doing something above and beyond.

I really, really hate achievements.

A lot of us don't, and for a lot of us, it gives us something else to look forward to besides item-grinding. We can disagree I guess, but I don't see how its inclusion negatively effects someone else's gaming experience.

 

[5zigen]

Re: D3 Achievements

Some achivements are good.

For example, in WoW I really liked the glory of the hero / raider achievements (I sort of liked them less because you had to rely on 5-25 people actually knowing how to play and being well geared.)

Ultimately I like achievements that indicate you actually did something (for example, an achievement that indicates you completed the game without using any respecs.) over stupid incremental achievements (take 50000000 steps or play for 5000 hours...)

I also favor time based achievements over others, so clear the game in X hours is better than clear the game 100 times.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

Bull and you know it.

Go ahead and prove it.

 

[PReP]

Re: D3 Achievements

I still don't get how people can complain over something that would be _up to oneself_, you know - the opposite of mandatory?!

And if you knew even the tiniest thing about coding and variables, you would know how very very easy an achievement could be made in the game - it is basically just a visual checkpoint over a hidden or semi-hidden stat/counter that is already there (and at the time of achieving it also is at the right quantity).

And the "ruins the atmosphere"-comment is a bit odd, since there are visual markers and icons and even the leveling system in itself being viewable in the gameworld/at the screen, and if that doesn't bother one, why would an achievements-menu?, it is just as "unrealistic" as the level stats and skills list itself.

And again, more things to do for us that finds it fun, and no obstacle at all for those who choose to not care about them - they would not impair your own gameplay in any way, it could even be possible to make them not show at all with a setting.

+1 for more choice/content (yes, content - by the very literal meaning of the word) and thus: +1 for achievements.

*gives whiners a comforting hug*

/PReP

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

I still don't get how people can complain over something that would be _up to oneself_, you know - the opposite of mandatory?!

Maybe you should try reading some posts again?
1. Wasted development time spent on achievements
2. Wasted resources spent tracking achievements
3. Possible negative impact in multiplayer scenarios due to achievement persuit

And if you knew even the tiniest thing about coding and variables, you would know how very very easy an achievement could be made in the game - it is basically just a visual checkpoint over a hidden or semi-hidden stat/counter that is already there (and at the time of achieving it also is at the right quantity).

While I am not a computer programmer, I have taken a couple courses in programming and like to think I have a fairly rudimentary idea on the concept of how some of these things work.

Like I said in my original post, for everything that needs to be tracked there's a variable/condition tracking it. Yes, this may seem small, but the fact is you eventually have hundreds of these conditions operating simultaneously. While I can't guarantee this is what may or may not be going on, this is what I imagine:

Achievement: Take 10,000 steps.

Is character moving?
-----Check x,y.last vs x,y.current
What is character's velocity?
-----Check speed variable to determine step amount
Is the character on the ground?
-----Check z plane for ground against character's current x,y, z
Increment step
-----Is step>=10000?

Is the step variable stored locally or going back to a central database? Depends on the type of game. What if it goes back to a central database like in WoW? You have how many clients feeding back all sorts of generic data like this? How often does it get updated? How often is the server checking these values?

Maybe a check isn't that difficult. Maybe they don't care if you're on the ground or what your velocity is. Maybe it's more difficult depending on the achievement? I can't say I know. What I can say I know is that someone spent time on this, and another person spent time inventing the achievement. Both of these guys could be doing more important things with their time.

And again, more things to do for us that finds it fun, and no obstacle at all for those who choose to not care about them - they would not impair your own gameplay in any way, it could even be possible to make them not show at all with a setting.

D3 isnt TF2, but I've already cited a way how this can impact gameplay. Use your imagination.

+1 for more choice/content (yes, content - by the very literal meaning of the word) and thus: +1 for achievements.

Achievements aren't content. If I re-release Pac-Man with a whole bunch of ridiculous checks like "eat 500,000 pellets" or "eat 200 ghosts" or "get 999999 points", have I added any content at all? Before you answer yes --- ask the guy who's already done these things before I added the achievements what his answer is.

 

[Akse]

Re: D3 Achievements

I hope we get some kind of diary or log to check what we have done and achieved. Like killed monsters etc.

 

[Kaeros]

Re: D3 Achievements

You just said the same points you did in your last post.

To illustrate the redonkulous factor of being worried about a few variables.. A 2006 hi-end processor can run about 30,000,000,000 IPS (Instructions per second). Determining the cost of tracking achievements is like counting the molecules on a drop of water in a really large bucket. It's immeasurable, like this text-box tracking how many characters I have left before I run out of room.

Anyway, the entire topic of whether or not we'll have achievements is a bit redundant to get fired up about. Feel free to not like them, but you're really grasping at straws for a good reason why they shouldn't be available for the people that do like them and consider them worthwhile. If there wasn't a large sector of gamers that liked achievements, they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

 

[Kaeros]

Re: D3 Achievements

I hope we get some kind of diary or log to check what we have done and achieved. Like killed monsters etc.

I'd love that kind of information to be tracked! Monsters killed, strongest monster killed, preferred weapon-type/spells, PvP kills/deaths, etc. etc. etc.

I'd also like to see an in-game Beastiary that automatically fills out with info as you kill beasts.

100 kills -- Monster page unlocks, portrait unlocks
1000 kills -- History of the monster
2500 kills -- Monster weaknesses
5000 kills -- Random reward. Maybe some type of damage buff against the monster, or an item-drop % buff for that particular beast? Or maybe even an item that is lore-specific to that creature?

Oh yes, this I would love.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: D3 Achievements

To illustrate the redonkulous factor of being worried about a few variables.. A 2006 hi-end processor can run about 30,000,000,000 IPS (Instructions per second). Determining the cost of tracking achievements is like counting the molecules on a drop of water in a really large bucket. It's immeasurable, like this text-box tracking how many characters I have left before I run out of room.

I'd really love to know why when WoW implemented achievements the whole game ran like total garbage for days. I guess updating all of those variables at once took a toll on their backend?

Feel free to not like them, but you're really grasping at straws for a good reason why they shouldn't be available for the people that do like them and consider them worthwhile.

While you think I'm grasping at straws I think it's silly you need to check items off on a digital laundry list. To each his own.

 

[Kaeros]

Re: D3 Achievements

I'd really love to know why when WoW implemented achievements the whole game ran like total garbage for days. I guess updating all of those variables at once took a toll on their backend?

You earn "Straw Man Achievement".

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.0.2
It probably ran like garbage because patch 3.02 was one of the largest to date, involved opening up an entire new part of Stormwind, the Calendar system, the Achievement system, the moving of Dalaran, avatar hair customization, new talent trees, and about 25 more pages of changes. Also, WoW has a tendency to run like garbage after patches.

While you think I'm grasping at straws I think it's silly you need to check items off on a digital laundry list. To each his own.

Fair enough.. I like my digital laundry list. :]

 

[Brandonn]

Re: D3 Achievements

Wow! Look at all the feedback on this topic!

:smug: Brandonn has achieved Cause a stir. +5 Points :thumbup:

It sounds like the people here against achievements aren't just against them in D3, they just don't like them at all - in anything.

I'm gonna repeat something I said before. Achievements can add a new layer of depth to a game. The fist time through, you may not even pay attention to them. Maybe you even earn a few by happenstance. But eventually, you'll be able to go through and try to earn them, try to find all the "elite" monsters. Or complete 50 unrequired quests, maybe find the unicorn... It's just another thing to do. You shouldn't really complain that it's pointless, because the whole dam thing is pointless - come on - it's a game! It's all about the journey.

How many of you tried to beat Quake 2 with just the blaster? Well I did! Now where is my badge?

Edit: My ePenis is bigger.

 

[Airazor]

Re: D3 Achievements

Tracked stats would be pretty cool, more useful than achievements
some rpg's usually have a ridiculously detailed stats page, that would be interesting in D3.

 

[PReP]

Re: D3 Achievements

Maybe you should try reading some posts again?
1. Wasted development time spent on achievements
2. Wasted resources spent tracking achievements
3. Possible negative impact in multiplayer scenarios due to achievement persuit



While I am not a computer programmer, I have taken a couple courses in programming and like to think I have a fairly rudimentary idea on the concept of how some of these things work.

Like I said in my original post, for everything that needs to be tracked there's a variable/condition tracking it. Yes, this may seem small, but the fact is you eventually have hundreds of these conditions operating simultaneously. While I can't guarantee this is what may or may not be going on, this is what I imagine:

Achievement: Take 10,000 steps.

Is character moving?
-----Check x,y.last vs x,y.current
What is character's velocity?
-----Check speed variable to determine step amount
Is the character on the ground?
-----Check z plane for ground against character's current x,y, z
Increment step
-----Is step>=10000?

Is the step variable stored locally or going back to a central database? Depends on the type of game. What if it goes back to a central database like in WoW? You have how many clients feeding back all sorts of generic data like this? How often does it get updated? How often is the server checking these values?

Maybe a check isn't that difficult. Maybe they don't care if you're on the ground or what your velocity is. Maybe it's more difficult depending on the achievement? I can't say I know. What I can say I know is that someone spent time on this, and another person spent time inventing the achievement. Both of these guys could be doing more important things with their time.



D3 isnt TF2, but I've already cited a way how this can impact gameplay. Use your imagination.



Achievements aren't content. If I re-release Pac-Man with a whole bunch of ridiculous checks like "eat 500,000 pellets" or "eat 200 ghosts" or "get 999999 points", have I added any content at all? Before you answer yes --- ask the guy who's already done these things before I added the achievements what his answer is.

First of, you are right in that some obscure achievements might be a little bit more work than others, but in most cases i would say nope.

There are two things that nags me with your reply though, and usually i would just shrug my shoulders and let it be, but i am tired and very grouchy right now

1. You pick out the beginning of my statement about how this process wouldn't slow the project of making diablo 3 much at all, like i did not give my reasoning for it - not doing so.
But yet, you at the same time acknowledge my motivation/explanation for the first part as a whole with your second reply.

2. You need not only to look up the word _content_, but also the word _literal_ - "in the literal sense" = what i means, not what one thinks.
This can't really be argued

Now this lizard WILL sleep before he starts lashing out blindly with his tail against everything in a lack-of-sleep-fit.

Good night, and thanks for all the fish.

/PReP

 

[Dahmer]

Re: D3 Achievements

Go ahead and prove it.

Ok, simple, when they added achievements about 90% of my counters didn't start at 0

Do some searching before you start coming here with bull****, they've said it before and it's obvious that most of the data used for achievements was already in their database.

As for game running like **** when they added them I can be short :
Don't you think a LOT of people came back when they found out about them? I ended up with a queue on my realm that wasn't there for the longest time.

 

[Telzen]

Re: D3 Achievements

I'm surprized that the support for them is higher here than at the official forum. I hope they won't be in. What I wouldn't mind is a journal type thing that keeps up with stats. Like "Total Enemies Killed" and tracks how many of each type.

 

[PahaLukki]

Re: D3 Achievements

The biggest problem with achievements is when they cross that treshold into mechanical gameplay advantage (no matter how insignificant!), giving everyone the incentive to grind them out, and eventually affecting the overall balance of the game. As long as that doesn't happen, I don't think some statistics on characters is going to bother anyone..

 

[refes]

Re: D3 Achievements

I still despise achievements for their, imho utter pointlessness (and it certainly is) BUT if all this tracking stuff is kept absolutely silent in the background with no pop-ups or anything distracting going on on the screen then, and only then I probably could live with it.