Crushing Blow question for Kirsty

Salo

Diabloii.Net Member
Crushing Blow question for Kirsty

Hey.

I am debating people heavily on a topic i thought was dead and figured out. I will let you state your opinion on it, you did a few months ago.

Crushing blow. does it do more damage in multi games? or does it do the same as a single player. dont answer it from info on arreat summit or another webpage (they all same source im realizing).

What you think and why?
 

brainfloss

Diabloii.Net Member
I don't see why it has to be Kirsty to answer :p

Anyway, CB does a percentage value of the monster's current life total as damage, and is affected by physical resist, like Static Field is affected by lighting res. The percentage is the same regardless of the amount of players in the game.
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
wrong brianfloss sorry but its affected by the amount of players in the game.


its easy to see the difference from players 1 games and players 8 games

the amount is less in players 8 games as it takes the extra 450% life into the ecuation.

its still great but its affected and it also suffers a ranged penalty.

witch i should add in into the sniperzon guide too
 

Salo

Diabloii.Net Member
lone_wolf said:
wrong brianfloss sorry but its affected by the amount of players in the game.


its easy to see the difference from players 1 games and players 8 games

the amount is less in players 8 games as it takes the extra 450% life into the ecuation.

its still great but its affected and it also suffers a ranged penalty.

witch i should add in into the sniperzon guide too
the assassin and druid forums are waiting to see what Kirsty says here.

There is a debate as to how much or if at all it is affected. kinda a huge debate. must be proven somehow, today we await her response as well, she was the only person who had the clear, non arreat summit explanation of it and tested as far as I am concerned.
 

sir goatscelot

Diabloii.Net Member
It is affected by the number of players in the game. As to the exact % I am not sure. But over on the amazon basin website, and also the lurker lounge, they have the exact math. The general opinion is that in larger games, Cb helps, but not enough to warrant sacrificing better gear for Cb gear. And for missle classes, Cb does take a hefty penalty :( I believe it's cut to around 25% or so. But I well could be mistaken and leave this to others for their opinions. Personal exp has not made me a fan of Cb, as I found Ow to be more effective. Good luck.
 

Salo

Diabloii.Net Member
sir goatscelot said:
It is affected by the number of players in the game. As to the exact % I am not sure. But over on the amazon basin website, and also the lurker lounge, they have the exact math. The general opinion is that in larger games, Cb helps, but not enough to warrant sacrificing better gear for Cb gear. And for missle classes, Cb does take a hefty penalty :( I believe it's cut to around 25% or so. But I well could be mistaken and leave this to others for their opinions. Personal exp has not made me a fan of Cb, as I found Ow to be more effective. Good luck.
amazon basin is a dead link

the cblow link is the tommi page which is not based upon his findings but someone who has basically read the arreat summit awkwardly written description that makes very little sense after you reread it.

im a fan of cb, OW is ok, but sucky when you consider a blood moor zombie to have 4-5x the amount of life it can drain in a multi game. its better than nothing, see, i like cblow/deadly/poison/wounds at a high percentage all at once. that then really works. guillames face/gore riders/rattlecage/steelrend/cblow gloves.... all on a fast attack rate do really well in hell.

where is kirsty
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
salo its very easy to test in game just get a zon a pair of gore raiders and kill a act 1 hell zombie. notice the amount of damage taken away from eatch CG hit.

now as i play sp i have no problem doing this as i just have to type in /players 8 and all is set for testing.

and my old testings for the sniperzon build showed that CB works less great the more players there is in the game.

also what is it that you find so hard to get from the formula???

Default: 1/4th
-vs. Players: 1/10th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/10th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/8th
-with missile weapons: 1/16th
-The life removed is also scaled with number of players. So that if a monster has 450% more life due to 8 players (or whatever the value is) the life removed is further reduced by the same amount (450% would equal multiplying by 4.5 so the life removed by Crushing Blow is divided by 4.5).

lets say a monster in hell has 2000 life at players 1

with a CB hit you would remove 125 life after your normal damage

now at players 8 the monster would have 9000 life and with a CB hit the life removed would be 562.5/4.5=125

its quite easy to spot the difference.

also even though a high amount of CB is good to make sure it triggers often a bigger chance to trigger CB wont take away more damage.
 

Salo

Diabloii.Net Member
lone_wolf said:
salo its very easy to test in game just get a zon a pair of gore raiders and kill a act 1 hell zombie. notice the amount of damage taken away from eatch CG hit.

now as i play sp i have no problem doing this as i just have to type in /players 8 and all is set for testing.

and my old testings for the sniperzon build showed that CB works less great the more players there is in the game.

also what is it that you find so hard to get from the formula???

Default: 1/4th
-vs. Players: 1/10th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/10th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/8th
-with missile weapons: 1/16th
-The life removed is also scaled with number of players. So that if a monster has 450% more life due to 8 players (or whatever the value is) the life removed is further reduced by the same amount (450% would equal multiplying by 4.5 so the life removed by Crushing Blow is divided by 4.5).

lets say a monster in hell has 2000 life at players 1

with a CB hit you would remove 125 life after your normal damage

now at players 8 the monster would have 9000 life and with a CB hit the life removed would be 562.5/4.5=125

its quite easy to spot the difference.

also even though a high amount of CB is good to make sure it triggers often a bigger chance to trigger CB wont take away more damage.
you wouldnt notice a difference in damage if it did 125 damage. thats 1.4% of total life bar. their life bars are quite small. 1.4% difference would maybe be a pixel on the bar, and you certainly wouldnt notice it visually. monsters have DR in hell, no more global just variable. What could anyone say is the reason for the whole cblow arreat summit explanation? they hardly put a line for some of the explanations, wouldnt they just put out "Cblow does not scale with players in the game, it will do the same amount of damage removed if one were in solo games."
try it out, crushflange, low str character, no deadly strike/crit strike, goblin toes, 10% cblow gloves. thats 76% cblow and very little base damage. when it poofs youll see the bar move more than 1.4% which wouldnt register to anything of note.
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
hum used wrong thing to count with.

wonder why they took the 1/8 amount for ranged away strange.

anyway now when i checked back it should really be 1/8 for ranged CB and 1/16 against bosses.

then using the same example we get at players 1

2000hp

2000/8=250 with will be substracted before your normal damage

the same monster in a players 8 game would have

9000 life and then its

9000/8=1125 again plus your normal damage.

(1125/4.5 is still 250 hum i bet they have qouted jarulf wrong because when i asked him to look into this i dont remember anything about the /4.5 part at all.)

still the amount of life taken away with CB is based upon current hp if i recall right so it gets less effective the more you damage a monster.

if you dont factor in the / with 4.5 its seems much more likly to work as it should aka with the first CB hit the players 8 monster is taken from 9000hp to

7875 then the next CB hit would take it down with

984.375

so after 2 CB hits it would be down to 6890.625

assuming you do no regular damage at all;)

damn the forum wipe destroyed the post where jarulf explined it all to me a while back. when i asked how CB had changed with the patch. :mad:

to bad we dont have that post anylonger.

think i wrote the CB section of the sniperzon build after he posted what he said though and there is no mention of the damn 4.5 thing there either.


EDIT: strange the is totaly wrong about that CB is counted after normal damage so they must have qouted jarulf wrong
 

Shade

Diabloii.Net Member
lone_wolf said:
(1125/4.5 is still 250 hum i bet they have qouted jarulf wrong because when i asked him to look into this i dont remember anything about the /4.5 part at all.)
Which is the same amount of life you'd take away in a 1-player game. That would be how the scaling effect should work - it would ensure that you would deal the same amount of damage regardless of player number (just like CE).

A more interesting question would be 'does the scaling of CB apply in PvP too?'

(a question I don't know the answer to, of course...)
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Shade said:
Which is the same amount of life you'd take away in a 1-player game. That would be how the scaling effect should work - it would ensure that you would deal the same amount of damage regardless of player number (just like CE).

A more interesting question would be 'does the scaling of CB apply in PvP too?'

(a question I don't know the answer to, of course...)
i dont call that scaling shade i call it "CB damage is the same in players 1-8 games but its less effective because monsters have more hp"

but if they planned it to have the same nerf as CE then the calculations with the right normal monster affect aka 1/8 works as it should

note to self dont post at 2 in the morning
 

Shade

Diabloii.Net Member
Technically, it's being scaled down to do the same amount of damage with any number of players - it's being divided by (0.5 + (no_of_players * 0.5)).

But yes, it's in the same vein as the CE 'nerf' in that it does the same damage no matter what, now.

(Of course, a workaround in an 8-player game is to ensure that everyone has CB :) )
 

Salo

Diabloii.Net Member
Shade said:
Technically, it's being scaled down to do the same amount of damage with any number of players - it's being divided by (0.5 + (no_of_players * 0.5)).

But yes, it's in the same vein as the CE 'nerf' in that it does the same damage no matter what, now.

(Of course, a workaround in an 8-player game is to ensure that everyone has CB :) )
nonono... i think lone wolf is saying differently, he is saying that previous posts about the 4.5 being dividing the damage it does is not so.

Lone wolf:
"anyway now when i checked back it should really be 1/8 for ranged CB and 1/16 against bosses.
then using the same example we get at players 1
2000hp
2000/8=250 with will be substracted before your normal damage
the same monster in a players 8 game would have
9000 life and then its
9000/8=1125 again plus your normal damage. "

seems to mean it does do a great amount of damage at first, a non nerf.

The 1/8 ranged vs normal, thats interesting. I havent heard that anywhere, but doesnt mean its not true. ASummit is not complete on this topic at the very least.
 

Boooyakasha

Diabloii.Net Member
I had made a Barb using WolfHowl and the Grisworld Caddy, when turned into Werewolf using Feral Rage he achieved 3 frame attack with very very low damage and 100% CB. Well the monster's life bar reduced in < 1 milimeter every time 1 hit I dealt.

This was made in SP with players 8 command. So the CB effects in a high player number game is neglectable.
 

Jarulf

Diabloii.Net Member
It is scaled down by the samwe ammount as the monsters life is scaled up with number of players. So if a monster has +350% life due to more players in the game, the ammount removed by CB is lowered by the same 350%. Quite easy.

By the way, AS is a bit wrong or unclear. The ammount of life lost is halved for all missile attacke, regardless of target type. Currently it only lists the value versus bosses. So versus a normal monster with a missile atatck, it removes 1/8th and versus a player or hireling it is 1/20th.

Also, in 1.10 it was changed so that CB applied BEFORE normal damage is done, not after. The corrected info was sent to Geoff yesterday so hopefully AS should be updated soon.
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
yeah i noted they put it up wrong. i still remember you said it was 1/8 against normal monsters.

anyway its still helpful even so not as great as in /players 1 games

from what i can see you agree with shade that it works just like the scaling of CE right??

just wanted to know that as i havent put anything about the affect of the /players command or just more players in game in the sniperzon guide
 

Jarulf

Diabloii.Net Member
lone_wolf said:
yeah i noted they put it up wrong. i still remember you said it was 1/8 against normal monsters.

anyway its still helpful even so not as great as in /players 1 games

from what i can see you agree with shade that it works just like the scaling of CE right??

just wanted to know that as i havent put anything about the affect of the /players command or just more players in game in the sniperzon guide
I have no idea how CE scales, but I think it would be the same.

Lets take an example. A monster in 1 player game has 100 max life and is currently at 100 life. CB would then remove 1/4 of that, so 25 life. IN a x player game, lets assume the monster would have +200% life so 100 + 2*100 =100*3=300. Now, CB would initially have removed 300/4 or 75 life, however we scale it back with the *3 which would be dividing by 3 so 75/25, so it removes 25 life. Same as in 1 player game.

Lets assume the same monster is down from 300 life to 100. It would then remove 100/4/3 which would be 8.3 (whic is same ammount as if the monster had been at one third of its max life in a 1 player game).
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
CE remanis the same from /players 1 to players 8 so yes they work the same as you put up the example for CB.

thanks for clearing that up jarulf i think the orgional poster have all his questions answered now :thumbsup:
 

Kirsty

The Order of Dii Guild Member
Salo said:
where is kirsty
I'm really saddened to send you all this news.
Celine collapsed Sunday two weeks ago from what I thought was exhaustion. It happened during an etf dueling game when I had taken her place and she lay on the couch to rest. I don't know who all attended but I'm certain they remember my absence mid-duel when I rushed off to see if she was okay. She'd been having headaches all evening and was dizzy since the day before, but she said to me she was okay. Then all of a sudden she called out that everything was going black around her and she stood up to walk towards me. She lost balance and passed out, but luckily I caught her in time.
I rushed her to the hospital and she's been there ever since... she's been awake a few hours per day, but overall she sleeps or is unconscious and she drops in and comes out so unpredictingly... I can't really say what's going on yet since it is still not clear to me. I don't understand.
The doctors said that it seems to be a spread infection in her ovaries due to the appendicitis problems she had a year ago. Back then it had burst open and spread through her stomach and she had to stay in the hospital for a week of observation too. I guess... they missed something.
I am sorry I didn't notify you all sooner, I didn't really think of it. Everything is going so fast right now and I'm certain you're not the only ones I haven't told yet. I have troubles taking care of our pets, the farm, Larys and work since I visit her daily and thinking of notifying everyone we know hasn't been on my mind yet. Thankfully I can take Larys everywhere I go, the pets and farm are up to her parents.
I don't know if I will remember to keep track with you all, but I will try.


As to the question answered.
I seem to recall that the damage in percentile terms is only affected in pvm multiplayer games, though you will not do less straight damage with it than in a single player game. Pvp wise it works the same as in 1.09.
I'm not 100% on this though since Celine is the source of knowledge and I have a vey bad memory, but I'm certain enough. I'll put a subscription to the thread if you want so she can scroll it when she gets out of the hospital. I expect it won't be for a few weeks though.

Greetings

Luc, the boyfriend.
 

Salo

Diabloii.Net Member
Kirsty said:
I'm really saddened to send you all this news.
Celine collapsed Sunday two weeks ago from what I thought was exhaustion. It happened during an etf dueling game when I had taken her place and she lay on the couch to rest. I don't know who all attended but I'm certain they remember my absence mid-duel when I rushed off to see if she was okay. She'd been having headaches all evening and was dizzy since the day before, but she said to me she was okay. Then all of a sudden she called out that everything was going black around her and she stood up to walk towards me. She lost balance and passed out, but luckily I caught her in time.
I rushed her to the hospital and she's been there ever since... she's been awake a few hours per day, but overall she sleeps or is unconscious and she drops in and comes out so unpredictingly... I can't really say what's going on yet since it is still not clear to me. I don't understand.
The doctors said that it seems to be a spread infection in her ovaries due to the appendicitis problems she had a year ago. Back then it had burst open and spread through her stomach and she had to stay in the hospital for a week of observation too. I guess... they missed something.
I am sorry I didn't notify you all sooner, I didn't really think of it. Everything is going so fast right now and I'm certain you're not the only ones I haven't told yet. I have troubles taking care of our pets, the farm, Larys and work since I visit her daily and thinking of notifying everyone we know hasn't been on my mind yet. Thankfully I can take Larys everywhere I go, the pets and farm are up to her parents.
I don't know if I will remember to keep track with you all, but I will try.


As to the question answered.
I seem to recall that the damage in percentile terms is only affected in pvm multiplayer games, though you will not do less straight damage with it than in a single player game. Pvp wise it works the same as in 1.09.
I'm not 100% on this though since Celine is the source of knowledge and I have a vey bad memory, but I'm certain enough. I'll put a subscription to the thread if you want so she can scroll it when she gets out of the hospital. I expect it won't be for a few weeks though.

Greetings

Luc, the boyfriend.
holy crap!!

suddenly my cb question is nothingness compared to this! she is a really neat person, I will pray for her healthy return as soon as I hit Submit Reply. Lucky boyfriend btw :)
 
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