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Crushing Blow is OP in Reaper of Souls: Nerf Coming

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Hound, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. Hound

    Hound IncGamers News Service

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    The early stand out strategy/overpowered property in Reaper of Souls is the Crushing Blow modifier. Yes, it's <a href="http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Crushing_Blow">returned from Diablo 2</a> and it works much the same, cutting 25% of the current health off of normal enemies and 12.5% off of bosses. It's not a big deal on lower difficulty levels where you can take out enemies in just a few hits, but when you get to higher difficulty levels, Crushing Blow becomes enormously powerful.

    Big enemies on Torment IV have "billions" of hit points, enough to make even those 800k and 1000k and 1200k DPS figures feel flaccid. But when you've got 40% Crushing Blow and a fast attack, any monster's hit points will simply melt away. (Providing you can survive long enough to turn up the heat.) Blizzard is aware of this and has a tweak planned for the next beta patch, as EU Blue Vaneras shared:

    We are in a super early beta testing phase right now, and there are still lots of things that need tuning and also bugs that need fixing.

    The developers' intentions with Crushing Blow is for it to be competitive with stats like Increased Attack Speed, Critical Hit Chance, or Critical Hit Damage, but obviously it will need some tuning if it clearly trumps all of those other stats.

    We are of course interested in reading more of your thoughts on Crushing Blow, so please keep posting your feedback on it :)

    ...

    Currently, a Crushing Blow hits for 25% health against normal monsters, for 12.5% health against elites, and it will hit for 5% health against bosses after the next beta patch has launched.

    Keeping in mind that Crushing Blow is subject to changes and tuning since it has to compete with other stats (Increased Attack Speed, Critical Hit Chance, and Critical Hit Damage), what are your thoughts on these percentages? [source]


    To give you guys some insight into this, and bear in mind that number are a lot higher in RoS than in D3V. In Reaper of Souls, with good gear and offensive skills/passives, it isn't hard to get 1,000,000+ DPS. Which sounds great, and dominates the lower difficulty levels, but that DPS means nothing on higher levels of Torment where bosses have literally billions of hit points.

    <a href="http://diablo.incgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/leg-voo-energy-trap1.jpg"><img src="http://diablo.incgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/leg-voo-energy-trap1-300x205.jpg" alt="CB because... Crushing!" width="300" height="205" class="size-medium wp-image-373304" /></a>
    CB because... Crushing!

    CB spawns in the 5-8% range on gloves, shoulders, rings, amulets, and weapons. (And probably some legendaries in other slots, though I've not seen them yet.) It's super effective, especially on higher difficulty levels, but it requires and rewards specialization. Since going the Crushing Blow route, my DH has loaded up on hit points and resistance and especially on life regen (<a href="http://diablonut.incgamers.com/skill/demonhunter/brooding">Brooding</a> is 1.5 in RoS, but it stacks to 3x if you remain motionless.), exchanged Critical hit Chance and flat DPS for more Crushing, shifted all of her Offensive Tab Paragon Points into Attack Speed for more proc chances, etc. She's now dealing 200k lower DPS than a couple of days ago and is *less* effective on lower difficulty levels, but much better at higher difficulty levels where the big Crushing Blow % chance chews chunks off of the huge monsters in ways that DPS alone could not.

    Is this cheesy? You could argue so, but I don't really think so since it's working as designed. Crushing Blow isn't some one-stat-dominates-all play options the way some things (Barbarians) are now in the live game, Like I said, my Demon Hunter is actually worse at lower difficulties now, in exchange for being able to chew hps off of the giant enemies. And the focus on CB and higher diffs changes how I play; no longer am I about mobility and evasion; now I'm built as a tank to deal the most hits possible in a short time and isn't that what the game is all about? Different skills and affixes working together to support new builds or play styles?

    The question then becomes what can you do better with the traditional trifecta stats than with CB, and aside from dominating lower difficulty levels (where there's FAR less danger of death) I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe if CB came with slower attack speed, or was only found on certainly legendaries so it was a real trade off?
     
  2. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    I don\'t know what would be a good solution, but making CB Legendary exclusive definitely wouldn\'t be one. It would severely limit the number of viable items for T6, because as things are right now CB is a must. I think either of these options would be preferable:

    1) Reduce the HP scaling of enemies on higher Torment levels.

    2) Reduce the damage of CB even further.

    3) Change CB so that it can only proc once per enemy and rebalance its damage as needed.

    4) Cap the proc chance of CB. This wouldn\'t be a very effective solution though, because with high attack speed it could be very powerful even with a 10% cap.
     
  3. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    They could start out by normalizing CB, so attack speed does not factor into it (think they should do the same for life on hit)
    Reduce the % hp daamge of CB to something that is closer to what you get from other stats.

    But really, this shows the folly of combating trifecta by adding even more trifecta.
    We need stats to be less universal. CB does not (currently) fit that criteria.
     
  4. pulli

    pulli IncGamers Member

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    @shadout: normalizing CB would reduce build options.. By making it not-dps-based but simply attack speed based you can now build for -say- full attack speed and ignore dps as main thing. Instead of once again falling into dps.

    If crushing blow would be normalized for speed it would just be another dps stat: calculate the average monster health and that would give you the dps boost of a % crushing blow. - INDEPENDENT on the settings you run. While with non normalized approach the dps is NOT independent, meaning you can match equipment to perform "combos".


    The solution is like everything: tackle the source. THe source is, is that %dmg is simply the only dominant factor when monster life goes to infinity. The solution can be done in two ways: either don't let the life go "out of bounds" - make all life around equal to different difficulty levels (but instead apply a damage reduction over the damage you deal); or don't use % dmg.
     
  5. koko

    koko IncGamers Member

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    So with CB, you made a tank DH. I would really like to see new ranged builds and not meleeing all classes.
    Anyway, pure range build are difficult to make because elites are really fast runners. Even with all possible +speed stuff (25% from gears, hot pursuite and tactical advantage passives, and firing smoke screen with rune displacement (which means +25+15+35+60=+135% speed), I am overrun by many elite. And the build is no so fun, having to flee often because of the weakness of hatred generators (I think they are buffed in RoS).
     
  6. koko

    koko IncGamers Member

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    I would prefer solution 3) with 100% of HP (with possibly 75 for elite and 50 for bosses (and 0 for malthael?)).
     
  7. trocadero

    trocadero IncGamers Member

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    So when we talk about billions and billions of hit points, your solution is to restrict everyone to three classes and maybe one/two builds each class that can use CB effectively? That\'s your solution? To kick three classes out of the higher difficulties altogether?
     
  8. koko

    koko IncGamers Member

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    Nice one which could make single target skills an option.
     
  9. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    But attack speed IS DPS.

    Now if the topic was some synergy between CB and for example cold resist? fair enough. But I don't think synergy between CB and attack speed is particularly healthy for the game.

    In the end, the synergy should mostly be between skills and CB. It, and all other stats, does not necessarily have to synergize with other stats.
     
  10. wardog

    wardog IncGamers Member

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    Might as well add in deadly strike, iron maiden etc. too.
    Btw, where is the lvl 71-73 items? we have 61-63 lvl items now?
     
  11. trocadero

    trocadero IncGamers Member

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    They already have Deadly Strike, they're called Critical Strikes. And I think I've killed myself more on Reflects Damage than Iron Maiden, b/c I really only ran Sorcs, Trap-sins and Necros most of my D2 career.
     
  12. pulli

    pulli IncGamers Member

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    @shadout: crushing blow should be seen as something like an "on hit effect" (similar to life on hit) - not as a main dps increase (dps in the literal sense, it can of course be a build's main source of damage). When keeping it tied to each attack this would enable "building to on-hit effects", vs building for main damage. When building for on hit effects you would stack attack speed, loh, crushing blow and other (more should be added) on hit effects, you ignore "crit dmg/chance, main weapon dmg & lifesteal". When building for hard dmg you work the other way around: lifesteal, crit dmg/chance & main weapon dmg becomes the important factors, ignoring CB, life on hit.

    What is best should not become clear-cut, and should depend on your character & build. (Ie: the standard monk ties well with on-hit builds as that provides also res regeneration & he likes dual wield - the crussader/wizard would love the standard more dps approach better as they can improve their dmg more from that and have little that applies to on hit effects).

    This would drive diversity.
     
  13. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani IncGamers Member

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    CB is only overpowered because enemies have so much HP.

    How hard is it to go ahead and lower HP but add mitigation on the mobs already, then make them actually dangerous rather than time consuming?

    For example, the much dreaded Butcher? 110 HP. That\'s it. He couldn\'t open doors but that\'s another problem.
     
  14. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    There is no life steal, so a "dps" build would not go for that. Why would a dps build not go for attack speed though?

    I have a hard time not seeing CB as DPS though, it reduces enemy HP by some amount per second, that is DPS in my head :) Sure, it is variable, but it hardly changes what it is.
    All the diversity you mention seem to be focused on classes? That is no diversity imo. Well, not more than the terrible str, dex, int thing is.
     
  15. RazeBarb

    RazeBarb IncGamers Member

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    They could design CB around so many factors, but they make it complicated for themselves because they don't want to make it complicated for the casuals.

    Imagine that CB would have variable procrates and diminishing returns per monster hit in a certain timeframe and status of the monster's HP (i.e. CB doesn't proc on monsters under 50% health).

    You can add as many parameters to that as you want, until it's balanced.
    But try to explain this stat in a "10-words-or-less" tooltip like Blizzard likes to do it.
     
  16. Darkflight

    Darkflight IncGamers Member

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    Crushing blow wasn't overpowered for the most of Diablo 2 simply because getting a really high damage weapon were almost universally better. A solid high-damage weapon would allow you to do far more damage then crushing blow stacking could except for against act- and uberbosses. Since every enemy in Diablo 3 have insane effective HP at high difficulty levels crushing blow will either have to be overpowered, useless or scaled down as difficulty goes up. I can't see any other way to do it.
     
  17. mwille

    mwille IncGamers Member

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    I really like the idea I read in the official thread about adding crushing blow DAMAGE as a property as well, just like how critical hits work. Adding another primary damage stat to the pool will only help to increase the choices we have to make when looking for items. That way there will be an actual trade-off for stacking crushing blow chance AND damage.
     
  18. Darkflight

    Darkflight IncGamers Member

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    Well, in Diablo 2 at least the idea was just stack crushing blow with high attack speed. If you make that stack crushing blow chance+crushing blow damage+ attack speed it doesn't really change much. If they want crushing blow to be useful but not overpowered they need to either make it not scale with difficulty levels so that it does damage as if you were playing the easiest difficulty always (which is how it worked in Diablo 2, and I think this is what they will go with) or make it a useful stat for cheesing higher difficulty levels before you get really awesome gear but it will be useless on lower difficulties.
     
  19. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    You could try to make it scale with your gear.

    Crushing Blow
    - y% to do up to do 25x damage up to z% of enemy current life. This damage cannot occur simultaneously with a regular crit.


    The actual numbers are obviously subject to balance. Basically, keep the flavor of a secondary damage stat that scales with how tough enemies are, but make it massively easier to balance while allowing it to remain meaningful. Tune the numbers so a person focusing on vanilla DPS affixes will eventually outscale it, but so that it remains useful/usable for a tank build.
     
  20. Artemis

    Artemis IncGamers Member

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    Perhaps it could be like static field. Capped at 50% monster hp on hard/expert and 25% on torment.
     

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