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Confessions of a Glitcher: One strategy to maximize Wealth from CS

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by EatSleepDiablov2, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. EatSleepDiablov2

    EatSleepDiablov2 IncGamers Member

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    What is "CS"?

    Chaos Sanctuary is the inner sanctum of Diablo in Act IV. Within the "Terror's Lair" are five seals that must be activated, three of which spawn super uniques: Grand Vizier of Chaos (Lightning Immune-100), Lord De Seis (Cold Immune-180), and Infector of Souls (Fire Immune-150).

    Most importantly for our purpose is that CS is a Lvl85 area capable of generating every unique, socketable, and rune in the game, and nearly all set items (excepting Cow King's Leathers).


    What is the "Glitch"?

    Once all super uniques are killed, and the last seal activated, all remaining monsters in CS instantly die. There are occasional, weird exceptions to this, but, generally, those that have been aggro'd within the last 5+- seconds have the potential to drop an item, or items in the case of bosses and champions. No experience is gained for monsters "killed" in this manner, but the game designers curiously chose to allow the drop(s) none-the-less.

    The vast majority are gold, scrolls, potions, low level white/blue items, etc. that are hardly worth a second look. However, since CS is a Lvl85 area, all uniques, runes, socketables, and non-cow set items are also in play. Although unconfirmed, some have speculated that magic find (MF) is set to zero by the glitch, but this "only" impacts unique/set drops. The good news here is that rune drops are independent of MF.

    Maximizing the number of monsters caught in the "glitch" is an opportunity for legit wealth/profit and the reason for this guide.


    Maximizing?

    First, we will be running P7 from start to finish ("/players 7"). Second, before activating the last seal, we will aggro as many monsters as possible. I do this initially by teleporting to the top of the pentagram to assess densities there, often using the Confuse curse from Delirium to rile things up (more on this later). I then teleport directly to the entrance, again assessing density. If the former is more populated, my path to the last seal will track upwards to the pentagram. If the latter is better, I take a more direct route to the seal. Here is a video to demonstrate this approach:



    As a last consideration, there are only so many builds that can handle P7 efficiently in CS because of its high density, varied immunities, and occasional spawns (i.e. Conviction). Cold, fire, and lighting builds will need the runeword Infinity (at a minimum), while physical based toons require Decrepify (via Reapers Toll).

    Others are free to post their setups/strategies with one or more of these, but the preferred CS build for many has always been the Hammerdin. His damage is magic based without the risk of immunities. Further, max block is achievable with reduced contributions to dexterity because of Holy Shield. Lastly, all Paladin shields are capable of 4 sockets, so the runeword Spirit is possible within a 45 resist-all shield with a minimal strength requirement (shoot for Sacred Targe @60% block/86 strength).

    The build has some hang-ups with its blind spots and unusual method of attack, but these are overcome with practice.


    The Build

    Hammerdin setups are pretty standard. Max Blessed Hammer, Concentration, and Blessed Aim. Allocate remaining points to pre-requisites, Vigor, Holy Shield, Redemption, and/or Fire Resists.

    Likewise gearing is standard: Heart of the Oak (Hoto), Enigma, Shako, Spirit, etc. Try to overstack fire resists in case of Conviction, and make sure your faster cast rate (FCR) is 125. Because any coveted Set/Unique (S/U) can drop from non-seal bosses, keep your MF up as well (minimum of 250-ish). Consider keeping a 2 x 4 area open in your inventory, plus the Horadric Cube, for prospective drops. There will be many.

    My recommendation for the merc is Act II Holy Freeze (Nightmare Defense). Equip with Insight, Delirium, and Shaftstop. The first and last of these is pretty self explanatory. Hammerdins need mana, and Insight keeps the blue bulb full. One-hit kills by Knights are possible, even without Iron Maiden, so reducing physical damage is key to his survival. Delirium, made in an ebugged helm, provides much needed crowd control (CC), along with a bonus in the form of Confuse.

    When activated, Confuse causes monsters to attack one other. Because the curse often affects the entire screen, a small group of monsters will attract others to join the melee. Confuse does not last long, but by improving monster density in a defined area, drop yields are increased from the glitch. Of note, mages often override the curse with amp or decrepify, but that seems only to extend the desired effects.


    The Run

    Here are a couple of runs:




    Odds & Ends
    • Diablo, the Seal Bosses, and their minions are capped at TC84, so they cannot drop some of the more highly coveted uniques in the game (Tyraels, DWeb, etc.). All runes are in play, however. Further, Big D drops six items at P7, while seal bosses double drop, along with four potions (like Pindle). Rest assured, there is much loot to be gained regardless of reduced Treasure Class.
    • Grand Vizier of Chaos (and his minions) are the easiest of the three seal bosses to kill, but make sure he/they are not suspended above the lava when killing them. They will not drop otherwise.
    • I do not recommend tele'ing into the middle of De Seis or Infector packs. They both hit like a truck and occasionally spawn some nasty mods. I generally position near them and start my hammer field. Once numbers are reduced, I move up/teleport to finish off the boss.
    • Nothing kills the merc faster than Diablo's Firestorm, which looks like a carpet of fire. As soon as it is released, give him a purple pot. Do not wait to see if he survives (he generally will not).
    Yields

    These are my high rune (HR) results generated in 151 Diablo essences worth of runs (1,511+- assuming one essence per 10 runs; ratio of one HR (Vex+) every 80 runs):

    Loot.jpg


    Loot2.jpg

    Those generated by the glitch include: 1 Cham, 2 Jahs, 2 Bers, 2 Surs, 1 Lo, 2 Vexs, 1 Gul, 1 Ist, 3+- Mals, 1 Um, 5+- Puls. Effectively, 1 glitched HR (Vex+) every 151 runs.

    I look forward to any questions/feedback and will edit this guide as other tips/strategies develop.

    Edit: Diablo drops six items (not five)
    Edit 2: Clarified HR to Vex+
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  2. sir_cyclops

    sir_cyclops IncGamers Member

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    As soon as I found out about this glitch (like 2 weeks ago), I was excited about the possibility of its affect on rune finding.

    Thanks for investing time into researching it and posting your results!

    I think a huge factor at play is the p7 aspect of your runs. Since the only required kills are the bosses, I wonder if less strong character could enter CS with p7 and then switch to p1 for the seal bosses. It would improve the speed but retain the p7 rune drop chances of all the normal monsters.
     
  3. EatSleepDiablov2

    EatSleepDiablov2 IncGamers Member

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    Personally, I would not condone this (i.e. run P1; glitch at P7).

    Some will argue, and I understand why, that glitching is already pushing the envelope of acceptability. Running at different player settings probably goes over the line...
     
  4. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    True, but they would have no moral high ground to take, really. Anakin would be safe.
     
  5. sir_cyclops

    sir_cyclops IncGamers Member

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    I mean, we manipulate racks, lk chests, Andy quest bug, playersx for varied difficulty and experience as needed. And you’re already using a bug to kill a bunch of monsters without actually killing them. I dont think there’s any basis for being against the strategy I mentioned (assuming all the other things listed are acceptable).
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  6. EatSleepDiablov2

    EatSleepDiablov2 IncGamers Member

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    Use this strategy in whatever way is acceptable to the forum.

    But I personally see a difference in running at a lower setting, regardless of circumstance, and profiting at a higher one.
     
  7. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    Well if you run on P1 when they spawn they will not be affected by a later switch to P7. I guess you could do it to the monsters up to the pentagram or so and fly in a circle out of spawning distance from the bosses, but seems way too annoying for way too little gain if any. ;)

    Thanks for starting this thread and the vid.

    I think these runs could be best suited for combining MF and RF, which is an aspect of the game I’m very interested in. Runs would look differently though, since for that you’d want a CS map with high boss density, focusing them down along the way. That could be in fact the most efficient way for combined MF/RF. I will add these runs to the 101 once I’m back with a computer. There is already a section in combined area running (with CS Hammerdin as top choice), but should definitely include the seal trick.

    Edit: Barb could be an interesting choice also, with higher MF for the clear (be it WW or even Berserker, on lower player setting perhaps).

    That being said, when looking for HRs only I’m still skeptical and don’t think your drops are representative of the odds. Grats ofc. ;) (Even if just considering all those from "normal" drops :eek:). Indeed runs could be adjusted for rune farming and faster as you said in the IFT. For CS, the benchmark is Vizier only runs with Blizzy, these take 30s or so, almost exclusively killing the monsters with ~3.5 higher rune drop chances basically non-stop. Not sure if this approach is more efficient in this regard even with sub 2m runs. For that monster counting is necessary – I trust people will do this during RFL. ;)

    In any case, thanks for starting the discussion as this hasn’t been explored enough in the past!
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  8. sir_cyclops

    sir_cyclops IncGamers Member

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    @ffs what I’m suggesting is p7 to the pentagram, switch to p1, do the seal bosses only, teleport around to re-engage as many monsters as possible, hit the last seal.

    I think the difference in all the monsters that are “loaded” from teleporting to the pentagram on p7 would be huge. It’s dozens of monsters who are all going to have p7 rolls for runes instead of p1 rolls for runes.
     
  9. Carny

    Carny IncGamers Member

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    Then let me also add my drops into the pool. I've posted this in another thread already. I wrote down my runedrops for the last 720 CS runs I did and the results are:

    2x Cham
    1x Jah
    1x Ber
    1x Sur
    1x Lo
    1x Vex

    That roughly equals about 1HR every 100 runs.
    Mid Rune count is:

    2x Ist
    2x Mal
    1x Um
    5x Pul

    CS is indeed a very strong Runefarming option, in my opinion even the strongest, once gear for a hammerdin has already been acquired. For fresh and new characters I would recommend LK chest farming, but once you have that Enigma done CS seal farming outdrops it IMO and it can drop Runes up to Zod
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  10. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    @Carny Grats to you too ;) though I’m talking about statistical expectation. For example I recently found 2x Zod within a couple of hundred Pit runs, but the statistical average is of course much lower.

    There are tens of thousands of CS runs documented on the SPF. I didn’t count but probably even just the recent marathon runners (mostly untwinked 99ers) have done some 15-20k runs in CS. Overall results were great ofc, but fewer runes than LK/Trav/Cows/AS and fewer than the above results (ignoring the runes obtained through the seal trick).

    What matters is the number of kills over a period of time, and I encourage people to test it with a focus on runes only. The abovementioned Vizier runs deliver some ~140 kills per minute on average (counting finger mages as 3.5). See eg this post and overall discussion about targets outside LK/Trav/Cows. I don’t know whether the seal trick method can perform better. Maybe yes, maybe no. For reference, the best cow running characters can get the equivalent of more than 200 per minute, accounting for different drop odds. I’m near positive CS can’t beat a well geared Trav/Cow runner.

    Again don’t get me wrong, I think this approach is fantastic (in particular for combining MF/RF) and I’m happy it is being explored. IMO it’s just not right to make conclusions putting it above LK/Trav etc without the numbers being up there, or even properly tested so far. Though runs can be a lot faster than the vid above. I hope people will jump on this in RFL so we can get a better idea.
     
  11. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    To present some numbers for comparison between areas.

    20s LK runner can farm Vex-Ber once in 135 minutes at average.
    20s Travincal runner can farm Vex-Cham once in 190 minutes
    2:30 Cow runner on p5 can farm Vex-Cham once in 225 minutes

    If we go by the numbers above, this seal trick can offer as high as Travincal farming numbers with a bit faster running. I might try to explore it to a bit with Blizzard sorc to see what can she do. De Seis will be a problem but such is life. Perhaps some mixed type of a sorc too. Hammerdins will be explored during RFL by others I believe. Also I likely won't kill Diablo at all.
     
  12. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    I'd be happy to add my areas stage to this. I was planning to run with a conc barb, so probably not the optimal build for it. Not sure that I could get anything together in time which would be optimal though, to be honest.

    On a side note, @EatSleepDiablov2 Big D should not kill your merc. I ran with a Reaper's/GA/Kira's set-up and the merc is absolutely fine. In that scenario, only De Seis shouldn't be telebombed. However, by simply luring his minions away (a few seconds), you can then telebomb him.
     
  13. EatSleepDiablov2

    EatSleepDiablov2 IncGamers Member

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    Couple things...

    Instead of activating Delirium at the top of the pentagram, shade to whatever side the last seal is on. Confuse is excellent at pulling from a pretty wide area, so by grouping closer to the seal, more monsters at the entrance get glitched.

    Second, I tried using Attract on a wand I had, instead of relying on Delirium. No comparison. The latter wins hands down. Not worth the hassle of switching.

    @Kitteh. Delirium is pretty key to the strategy, so I am less concerned about saving purple pots than fire proofing the merc.
     
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  14. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    Ah, I didn't realise that it was aggroing otherwise untouched monsters :p
     
  15. zemaj

    zemaj IncGamers Member

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    A thought occurs... if Confuse is integral to these runs, and you are running a Hammerdin, have you tried a Novamancer? Both reach 9frame cast rate with 125fcr, both have big AoE damage, both do not have to worry about monster immunity, and with Necro you could cast Confuse yourself, where you wanted it as opposed to wherever it happens to proc. Also, I could see Dim Vision (or Bone Prison, for that matter) being good for 'locking down' mobs that are in a good spot for the glitch-kill.

    Just a thought.
     
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  16. EatSleepDiablov2

    EatSleepDiablov2 IncGamers Member

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    One other thing to clarify with my rune results...

    When I first starting running, I did not glitch at all. It wasnt until I was well into my runs that I observed how the glitch works and even then, I was just aggro'ing the wing I was in. Delirium at the top of the pentagram was a very recent development as well.

    In my first 1,120+- runs (112 essences), I had 28 Pul+ runes, or 1 per 40 runs.

    With a more developed sense of glitching, 12 Pul+ runes in 310+- runs (31 essences): 1 per 26 runs.

    I think the RFL will really help solidify what kind of productions the area/strategy is capable of...


    Edit: Removed text suggesting HR was Pul+
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  17. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    Just to clarify something for planning my build. If you don't have delirium, are you aggroing less monsters? If confuse covers the screen, does teleporting through that screen aggro those monsters anyway?
     
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  18. EatSleepDiablov2

    EatSleepDiablov2 IncGamers Member

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    @Kitteh. Glitching is on a timer. I use 5+- secs, but you can go back to the videos to know exactly how much time elapses between monsters aggo'd and those that drop. Even though there may be monsters right at the entrance, they do not get glitched if you exceed the 5+- secs.

    What Delirium does (that is desirable) is confuse monsters so that they bunch up to attack one another.

    To answer your question directly, yes you do still have to teleport near the grouping to get them to drop. Confuse does not last long, so it is doubtful that the curse alone is enough to aggro.
     
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  19. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    Ok, that makes sense. So I guess my question is, why is confuse key to the strategy? I understand what it is doing, but not why we need it :)
     
  20. LongingForDeath

    LongingForDeath IncGamers Member

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    Not entirely sure why you keep referring to Pul+ as a HR. Before my hiatus, a HR was considered to be Vex+. Pul-Gul are mid-runes.

    Other than that, thank you for the write-up. A very interesting strategy that I'll definitely give a shot some day.
     

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