Compassion with pedophiles?

[snowieken]

Compassion with pedophiles?

Long read ahead.

This thread will probably open up a huge can of worms. Also, the following quote might be a bit inappropriate - I'll just try to keep it civilized. And, this thread being controversial, I trust you guys to do the same.

I recently listened to a piece of a Dutch stand up comedian. He is known to shock people with his theater and is often adressing hot issues, and adressing them in a way no one else would do publically - satire at its best. I heard a piece called "Pedo" and I thought it was absolutely brilliant. I think it is very much worth taking the effort to translate, so here is a transcript of the piece, roughly translated from Dutch (and note, he is only acting, playing a certain part... he is not really thinking this way):

What I want to do the most... I cannot do. No, because then I would harm them - physically and mentally. And I don't want that. It's really the last thing I want, because they are so sweet. The last thing I want is to hurt them, in any way whatsoever... But I want to do things with them. Very much. I really want it...

I really want to have sex... with girls... who are eight years old.

I think the entire day about it, it's in my head: in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening, ... at night. Those fantasies keep coming, and they keep getting heavier and hotter and I can't escape them. The only thing I can do is masturbate a bit and then they are gone for like half an hour... but after that they return and they are driving me crazy! They are driving me crazy and it is as if these kids... smell that.

For instance, I'm walking down the street, minding my own business. I'm alone, not bothering anyone... Suddenly, there's that voice behind me: (girly voice, Snow)"Sir? Sir? Can you please tie my shoe lace?" And then I sit there, with a huge hard :censored: tying that shoe lace. And then I see that little leg, and that little knee, and it's all so soft and young and so sweet and pure and innocent... and then I want to... I want to... But I don't do it! Never! I will never do it! I never did it and I never will! But it is driving me crazy.

Another time, walking down the street again. (girly voice again, Snow)"Sir? Sir? Can you please lift me up over that fence?" and then I say "Okay" and I lift that girl up, over the fence, and then I feel her little... dress... and I smell her hair... and then I lift her over that fence and... harrr! You know, it's a good thing I'm not an elementary school teacher anymore, because you know, it's like putting the cat near the milk (don't really know if that's the correct English expression, but I'm sure you know what is meant, Snow), I only made it harder for me this way - and it is already this hard. It's so hard.

A few weeks ago I had to babysit my brother's daughter. I was working during the day, I was filthy, so I took a bath at my brother's to save some time. In comes his daughter, age seven. "I want to take a bath as well" You see, and the first answer that comes to mind is "yesyesyesyesyesyesyes" but I don't say it! I don't say that! I say "no, you have to wait until I am finished, and then if you want, you can take a bath as well" and then she says "no I want to take a bath with you". I reply "no, you can't, now go away from the bath room and go play somewhere else". And I am actually rejecting that child! I am rejecting her! And then I wonder, is that good? Is that really good I am rejecting her this way? I don't know.

And then my mind goes wondering... hypothetically... I mean, really hypothetically... What if she comes to bath with me? We would be together, in the bath, in the water... She's naked. I am naked. With a raging hard on (sorry for the language, I really can't cover this one and do justice to the original text, Snow). Yeah, you can be sure about that. And this girl, she doesn't know about that. This girl is curious, and what if... you know... she would just... touch it for a while... grab it, out of curiosity... (comes to his senses, Snow) But I know it's not right! I know it's not right and that is why I won't do it! Never ever! But it's... it's... you know, they really have double standards here! Right? (gets carried away again, Snow) I mean, seriously. Rembrandt (famous Dutch painter, Snow) makes a painting, we all love it. Oh wonderful, it's gorgeous, bang, gets a place in the National Museum of Art. And then there is sex with eight year olds, oh, boo, cannot do that, blah blah blah. Seriously, double standards!

I don't want to want this. But I don't seem to have any say in this. A german philosopher once said that human beings have the choice to do whatever they desire. They are free to do so. But I say human beings can not choose what they want. I feel like I'm walking through a scorching desert for days, and around me are hundreds of tiny glasses of ice cold water - but I'm not allowed to drink from any of them. I never did drink from them, and I will never drink from them! I control myself, I keep pushing it away, and I will cramp it up until I get cancer and I will eventually die from it, and that, that is my life.

Of course this transcript can't really bring over the feeling you get when you actually hear him performing. While people were laughing at certain fragments, after this monologue was over, the audience was entirely silent. After a few seconds of total silence, a huge ovation broke loose.

In my opinion, pedophilia, however despicable, is something people can be a victim of. It's like a disease: you can't help getting it. More like a mental disease even, one can't help feeling this way. It's when a pedophile acts upon his "dark wishes", that's when it turns into the despicable crime of child molesting, in my opinion. But this piece by this stand up comedian has made me realize it is a very tragic thing to bear. People who feel this way definately need professional help, no question about that, but they do not belong in jail.

What do you think? Should we somehow feel compassionate, or is pedophilia in itself - without actually molesting children - a horrendous crime?

Also quite curious to hear what you think of this piece...

 

[Stevinator]

I'd rather they got the professional help than my sympathy.

 

[snowieken]

I'd rather they got the professional help than my sympathy.

The fact that they need professional help, of course, should go without saying. Sympathy is also not the word I am looking for here. It's more like a understanding that these people are not to blame for their feelings - only for their actions, if there were some.

 

[Sir EvilFreeSmeg]

Me and Saro can't disagree more on this. I'll keep it short.

Hang them or shoot them or whatever you want to do. Just kill them. And anybody that supports them as well.

 

[snowieken]

Then we disagree. I would almost go as far as saying anyone who has got such horrifying desires and actually succeeds in controlling them by never taking them into practice is to be commended...

I really hope some of you are bright enough to understand that I do not condone pedophilia in any way. I really, really do hope that.

 

[SaroDarksbane]

Me and Saro can't disagree more on this. I'll keep it short.

Hang them or shoot them or whatever you want to do. Just kill them. And anybody that supports them as well.

I don't think we disagree as much as you think, depending on how you look at it.

You think pedophiles should be killed.
I think they should be jailed.

Just a difference in the extremity of the punishment for the crime there.

The big difference between us is that you also think anyone who talks about or even expresses an urge (that they control) to commit the crime should be killed outright too, which I don't support. How could I? Merely talking about the urge to commit a crime is not the same as committing the crime itself.

I really hope some of you are bright enough to understand that I do not condone pedophilia in any way. I really, really do hope that.

You've expressed sympathy for someone who admitted to having pedophilia-related urges.

In Smegland, you'd be swinging from a tree branch by now.

 

[Dondrei]

I dunno about professional help, if it is to be viewed as an intrinsic sexual preference then it's no more a treatable "condition" than homosexuality. I suppose they would have a lot of subsidiary problems, of course.

I've heard this sort of thing before, it's true that sexual preference isn't really something you can help, it is awfully hard not to be revolted by people like this though. No different for someone who is only sexually excited by the idea of raping someone.

It is also the sort of thing that makes you suspect they've been messed up by one thing or another. If that's not true then it's pretty disturbing.

 

[Voorhees]

I thought comedians were supposed to be funny? How is that funny? Was it even meant to be? If not, then why say it as a comic? And he gets an ovation? I must admit, I'm at a complete loss of being able to imagine this moment taking place.
I don't really think sympathy is the way to go. Sympathy has a habit of leading to acceptance. And acceptance to acceptability. I think it's important to maintain certain social stigmas, as a deterrent supplemental to the law.
Besides, how would you really be sympathetic to a pedophile anyhow? I'm not really sure what your purposing here. Do you have some idea of how we should sympathize, or is this just an abstract notion?

 

[PlagueBearer]

It's not their fault. They can't help it.

But that's part of the problem: they can't be cured any more than gays can be turned straight. The "professional help" some of you guys advocate does nothing.

So what to do? We have to look to the cause, be it genetics or some kind of brain disorder, and we need to cure it, get rid of it. Until that day comes we seriously need to consider simply shutting down their libidos in a permanent way. This can be done with a variety of surgeries, not just castration. A certain kind of lobotomy is useful for this purpose.

Cost and reward, cause and effect. Do I feel compassion for them? Yes, I do. But their right to deny the state to perform such surgeries is overridden by the harm these people do.

 

[Voorhees]

It's not their fault. They can't help it.

But that's part of the problem: they can't be cured any more than gays can be turned straight. The "professional help" some of you guys advocate does nothing.

So what to do? We have to look to the cause, be it genetics or some kind of brain disorder, and we need to cure it, get rid of it. Until that day comes we seriously need to consider simply shutting down their libidos in a permanent way. This can be done with a variety of surgeries, not just castration. A certain kind of lobotomy is useful for this purpose.

Cost and reward, cause and effect. Do I feel compassion for them? Yes, I do. But their right to deny the state to perform such surgeries is overridden by the harm these people do.

You want to surgically alter people based on what, exactly? Someone's word? Some sort of test? An admission? Sounds like a witch hunt waiting to happen to me.

 

[PlagueBearer]

You want to surgically alter people based on what, exactly? Someone's word? Some sort of test? An admission? Sounds like a witch hunt waiting to happen to me.

Based on a child molestation conviction.

If they can test for it though, that would be ideal though. Of course that starts to head towards eugenics... a useful idea forever made evil by the fact that Nazis liked it too.

 

[BobCox]

I have a certain amount of forgiveness for children that don't know better, and boys in puberty that commit sex crimes because I think they are a victim of the hormones, kind of like my forgiveness of pregnant women. I also have understanding of those that fixate improperly during that time, and support efforts to adjust what they are exposed to at that age, and perhaps a 1 time warning later, but ultimately I support a society's right to eliminate threats to itself. The Tough Bananas Doctrine applies at a certain point. The universe is not fair and fairness is not a winners philosophy.
I prefer the death sentence over life imprisonment as well.

 

[Rabbitz]

I thought comedians were supposed to be funny? How is that funny? Was it even meant to be? If not, then why say it as a comic? And he gets an ovation? I must admit, I'm at a complete loss of being able to imagine this moment taking place.
I don't really think sympathy is the way to go. Sympathy has a habit of leading to acceptance. And acceptance to acceptability. I think it's important to maintain certain social stigmas, as a deterrent supplemental to the law.
Besides, how would you really be sympathetic to a pedophile anyhow? I'm not really sure what your purposing here. Do you have some idea of how we should sympathize, or is this just an abstract notion?

Its his character and the way he brings it. And obviously a language like English cannot grasp all the intrisks of Dutch.

 

[Dondrei]

I thought comedians were supposed to be funny?

Not in Europe.

Based on a child molestation conviction.

Then what you're saying is completely irrelevant to the subject of the thread, which is people with paedophilic tendencies who do not act on them.

If they can test for it though, that would be ideal though. Of course that starts to head towards eugenics... a useful idea forever made evil by the fact that Nazis liked it too.

Ahahah, the Nazis were evil because they practiced eugenics, not the other way around.

 

[snowieken]

I thought comedians were supposed to be funny? How is that funny? Was it even meant to be? If not, then why say it as a comic? And he gets an ovation? I must admit, I'm at a complete loss of being able to imagine this moment taking place.

Comedians do more than trying to make people laugh, at least here in Europe. In general, we have a very different kind of stand up comedy here: rather than just crack one joke after the other and try to make them coherent, comedians also address certain topics to entice people to think further. This particular comedian, at least, is known here to do that, and as I said, he usually has very controversial topics.

And about not being funny... Rabbitz obviously knows him and it is true that translation is always a tricky thing. On top of that, try to read other transcripts from pieces of stand up comedy, which are actually meant to be only funny, and there is a big chance you won't do more than crack a slight smile every now and then as well - while you would be in stitches if you are seeing the comedian perform the same piece live. Comedy is more than anything about the way text is presented - it's called an act for a reason.

About the subject at hand, I know having compassion for people with pedophile urges is a very provocative point of view. Let's put it this way then: child molesters deserve to rot in jail for the rest of their miserable life without chance for parole. But pedophiles who acknowledge they have a problem and don't act upon them do not belong there, in my opinion. They need help, not jailtime.

I definately agree with Dondrei that it is very hard to not be revolted by this, at least if you are one bit of a normal human being. But being revolted is one thing, crying "jail" for someone who only has urges but doesn't act upon them is another thing. I am revolted by pedophile urges and I would be quite worried about my sanity if I somehow wasn't. But this comedian brings his act - and again, it's just an act, he is playing a certain role, he doesn't have pedophile urges himself as far as I know - in such a way, one can't help but feeling compassion with the character he is playing. This character has pedophile urges, but can't help having them, and totally understands he cannot act upon those urges: partly because he is not allowed to, but also because he understands he will hurt his victims if he slips somehow. As a result of that, he will never find true love and he will die alone and miserable.

I also think it is perfectly normal for a human being to have some sort of compassion with that...

 

[Heilage]

Pedophilia and child molstation isn't necessarily always combined.

I pity pedophiles, whos natural urges is illegal and horrible. But I truly admire those who refrain from doing such actions. Imagining never being able to touch a person of the gender you are attracted to, even if they came on to you and wanted you to do it.

I do not pity child molesters. They need help, no doubt about it. But they should be gravely punished for their actions.

 

[Dii Legend]

I understand where snowieken is coming from in his views on the subject. I also agree that it's not a crime to have those types of feelings/urges so long as they are not acted upon. If someone knows they feel in such a way, but do everything they can not to act on it - then kudos to them. They do need to seek help, if there is such help available.

The point at which a person cannot control these urges is when the trouble begins. From my understanding of pedophilia, it is only having these feelings towards children. They have no desire to hurt them in any way. Once they act on these feelings, they are no longer just a pedophile, they are now a child rapist/abuser/molester and will face the consquesces of those actions.

Having these thoughts isn't a crime, acting on them is.

 

[MixedVariety]

Pity and sympathy for pedophiles? Only if they seek help before they act on their sick desires. Afterward is too late.

I would have no remorse in punishing them for their actions against the weakest, most innocent, unable-to-fight-back victims they could possibly choose. I believe there is no way to know for sure if such a sickness is ever cured 100%, and that they should be therefore removed from society for the remainder of their lives. No parole, no second chances, sorry.

 

[Ariadne]

I've been in the odd position where I've been friends with a pedophile for a while. (No longer though and it's been years ago)

The thing that struck me most was that he was totally aware of what he was doing. He couldn't help his urges nor desires, but he realised he can help acting upon them, that it is not right and that he really shouldn't.

But it was a circle for him - desire ---> wanting to act upon it, urges --> feeling guilty for having those urges, hating oneself ---> still feeling the desire nevertheless etc.
He hated himself so much for it. I told him that the only way to START getting rid of it was stop hating himself. Taking better care of himself (he was a right mess at times). Use the second chance he'd been given to its fullest, work, get his own life back on the rails again, taking care of himself.

He did. He never got rid of the urges but I later heard they got a lot less. They were no longer the main focus in his life and he had become more aware of how it would affect is (possible) victims.
The less he hated himself, the more he took care of himself, the more he realised he's not worthless, the better things went. But no, the urges and desires never entirely went away. Troublesome. Damaged goods. His victims, and himself.

 

[buttershug]

Based on a child molestation conviction.

If they can test for it though, that would be ideal though. Of course that starts to head towards eugenics... a useful idea forever made evil by the fact that Nazis liked it too.

There is a test involving sensitive measuring devices and exposure to certain porn. I've only read about it in newspaper articles so who knows how effective and accurate it is.
There was recently an article about some new study that found brain differences. It also said they tend to be shorter and left handed.
Personally I'm more in interested in what's done to help the victims.