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Can they be great players without a championship win? ifra

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Dirty_Zulu, May 20, 2005.

  1. Dirty_Zulu

    Dirty_Zulu Diabloii.Net Member

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    Can they be great players without a championship win?

    Now that Reggie Miller is joing the ranks of Marino, Barkley, Barry Sanders, etc...

    I don't totallly think that a player can be great without winning any championship for their team. When Jordan was absent for 2 years, his team dropped to the bottom for those two years. And we know what happened in the 3 years after he came back. Shaq's first year with the Heat and they're in the playoffs. That's the mark of a great player. Not just posting great stats for himself but failed to bring the team a championship.

    Btw, Shaq gotta be the most dominant, unstoppable force that brings a championship. yay??? :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  2. skihard

    skihard Banned

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    shaq was very helpful in the finals last year wasn't he?
     
  3. Dirty_Zulu

    Dirty_Zulu Diabloii.Net Member

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    He was tired of winning more rings for that punk Kobe.
     
  4. AeroJonesy

    AeroJonesy Diabloii.Net Member

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    It's different in different sports. Take Corey Dillon for example. He's a great running back, but everyone knew he wasn't going to win a Super Bowl while playing with the Bengals. In football, one player just can't be influential enough to take a losing team to the championships. One player is about 1/30 of the starters when you factor in offense, defense, and special teams. In basketball, one player is 1/5 of the starting lineup.
     
  5. Beowulf

    Beowulf Diabloii.Net Member

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    I'll take former Montreal Canadien Henry "the Pocket Rocket" Richard any day the dude has 11 Stanley Cup rings!!!
     
  6. drkhunter

    drkhunter Diabloii.Net Member

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    If you need a clutch 3-pointer is there a player other the Reggie you are going to go to? He's done it so many times for the Pacers it isn't funny.

    The big difference between the Pacers and Bulls is that the Pacers have Reggie who is a leader without team worthy of him. The Bulls without Jordan were a good team without a leader. Neither team can do anything. Had you put Reggie on the Bulls those two "retirement" years, I think things would have been a lot differenet.

    So, all in all, I understand what your saying but have to say you can be a great player without a championship. As you can probaly find players who have championships that are horrid but were on the right team at the right time.
     
  7. DrunkCajun

    DrunkCajun Banned

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    I certainly think you can be a great player without winning a championship, if the teams you were playing on were constantly sub-par. Contrary to popular belief, one player cannot completely alter the outcome of an entire season, let alone a championship, and in the rare case that it happens more often than usual, you cannot then say that every player who doesn't manage to rise to this level on a regular basis is not a great player.

    In different sports different players have different strengths. Patrick Roy was an amazing goalie (among the best IMO), but if you put him on a two-bit minor league team and pitted them against the Detroit Red Wings, they'd still lose. He may have a block % of .999, but if the minor league team isn't good enough to keep the Red Wings from shooting every three seconds, that can still mean half a dozen goals.
     
  8. Beowulf

    Beowulf Diabloii.Net Member

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    True enough. And Roy is the best example of a big game player that seems to bring his team to the next level. This guy won a Cup here in Montreal in 1993 almost by himself. While his regular season stats are well above average and he owns a fair bit of records, nothing can beat his playoff performances.
     
  9. drkhunter

    drkhunter Diabloii.Net Member

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    He may have a block % of .999, but if the minor league team isn't good enough to keep the Red Wings from shooting every three seconds, that can still mean half a dozen goals.

    I agree look at Roberto Luongo. He is Canada's back up goalie, will be the future starter. Plays for a minor league team (no offense to minor league teams, lots to Florida) stops on average 34 shots a game, playing the Wings that number is a lot higher then that. He is one of the best playing but got stuck on a crap team.
     
  10. skihard

    skihard Banned

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    Patty Roy also holds a few trophies in the sport of wife beating, but we won't bring that up

    A great sports person is great both on and off the field, court, ice. Reggie was that he did a lot for the Indianapolis community not just for the Pacers or Basket Ball. Barry Sanders was out at benefits around the Detroit area quite often and helped out the area. Some of the “greats†that have rings or cups or whatever have only that, Tiger woods for example is a “great†golfer but don’t approach him unless you’re somebody or he won’t talk to you, or even look up. I know that from watching someone approach him at a restaurant near Grand Blanc, MI. So to me Tiger Woods will never truly be great.

    So my opinion of a great player goes well beyond what they can do, with or for a team.
     
  11. Madness

    Madness Diabloii.Net Member

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    Maybe so, but his job is to be a sportsman, not a nice guy.
    And you can be a great athlete even if youre an asshole off the field.
    Sure you may not be liked, but it doesnt make you a worse athlete.
     
  12. Beowulf

    Beowulf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Very true. And on average hocket players tend to be more down to earth and willing to sign autpgraphs and help people than most other sports.
     
  13. skihard

    skihard Banned

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    Granted but it takes very little effort to say hi, and thank you....the truely great will do that.
     
  14. Croup

    Croup Diabloii.Net Member

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    You can easily be great without winning a championship, even in basketball where you make a more immediate impact due to less players being on a roster. The Bulls won 6 championships with Jordan because they had one of the greatest coaches in recent history and they were willing to build a team COMPLETELY around Jordan. They had a secondary scorer (Pippin), clutch three point shooter (Kerr or Paxton), bruiser down low (Rodman or Grant) and a center that would be rebounds and play decent defense. They built their team entirely around Jordan using roleplayers, that's why they completely fell off when he left.

    Then take Allen Iverson who has been one of the best players in the league for the last 7 or so years. He has no real team to speak of around him (although it's better recently with Igudala, Webber and the one guy whose name I can't remember) and hasn't in recent history. He's still be leading the league in points, steals and recently leading his team in assists too. What else could you possibly ask him to do without giving him better players?
     
  15. CookiesnCream

    CookiesnCream Diabloii.Net Member

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    Look at Kobe Bryant this year too. He didn't take his team to a championship without anyone surrounding him. It's pretty much the same for most team sports.

    And Shaq had a lot of good players around him this year. He's not as dominating as he was a few years back and I don't think he's the sole reason why the Heats are in the playoffs. The Heats also won games 3 and 4 against the Wizards without Shaq so I think that also says something about Shaq's supporting cast.
     
  16. Croup

    Croup Diabloii.Net Member

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    Exactly. While a full-strength Shaq can be a dominating force, he has one of the best players in the league with him in Dwayne Wade (there better not be any argument on this), good spot up three point shooters, good defensive presence inside (Alonzo Mourning or their forward whose name I don't remember) as well as a quality coach. That team is FAR from all Shaq. He helps them become a great team, but he is not at all the only reason they are successful.
     
  17. Garbad_the_Weak

    Garbad_the_Weak Diabloii.Net Member

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    In a team sport, yes. No player can win alone.

    Garbad
     
  18. Ranger14

    Ranger14 Diabloii.Net Member

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    To me that would make a great person, which is nice but shouldn't detract from their play on the court. I know a few people who have met Tiger and say he was very nice to them and he does a lot of charity work also, so don't know on that one.

    For me, a great player has to be a well rounded player who is consistent and makes those around them better. I don't know if I can say that for Allen Iverson. Someone who complains about practice has a hard time getting the "great" label for me. He seems to be more like Kobe to me and just tries to do it all himself. If Nash would have done that this season, the Suns wouldn't have had the best record in the league.

    Reggie was a great clutch player, but he was inconsistent at times (it showed in the playoffs this year...though he is older now, I realize that) He is also known as a "cry baby". I would keep him in that very, very good category, but there are few players who are great in my book.
     
  19. Elcold

    Elcold Diabloii.Net Member

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    Some great players just get stuck in bad teams and never have chance to win a championship, example Kevin Garnett or A.I. or T-mac, though their teams are merely mediocre. You cant really rely on one guy to bring a championship, even Micheal Jordan needed help to win one.
     
  20. skihard

    skihard Banned

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    I have a semi off thread topic question, how can someone that was voted the best defensemen of the year, get voted to the third all-NBA team. Ben Wallace’s number weren’t great, very good yes, great no, but he was very consistent and his boards and blocks were outstanding he has really stepped his game up in the playoffs and still he is considered an after thought by most in the basketball community as a choice for there team.

    Also great players that weren’t fan friendly while they were playing that are very fan friendly now, include the Great one Wayne Gretzky, from what I’ve heard you couldn’t approach him until he retired. Joe Montana, also until retirement was not the first person to walk up to for a “hey I think your great†conversation. Terry Bradshaw was another one that stories reported as being more about himself than those around him, again until he was no longer playing.

    You also have great players that don’t get recognized as great. Steve Yzerman for example has a career that is filled with numbers that are bettered by only about 10 people in the sport of hockey and of those 10 only about 4 or 5 are higher in every category. He is also a player that gave back part of his salary a couple years ago so the Redwings could get another great player, Brett Hull, and they won the cup that year. How many players would do that to win a championship? Not many consider Yzerman to be great and very few outside of hockey even know who he is.
     

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