Can any direct me to a thread...

[Taz]

@Taz
There's also the problem of gross simplification that Blizz does on the skills to the point that their info is totally useless for any detailed analysis.

But quoting from AS wasnt a good idea when dealing with RTB IMHO. :innocent: That place doesnt believe in detail or important facts.

Ok, i`ll try not to do that anymore.

I just had a window oportunity and lag permitting was able to test the first case.
Target was a paladin about 8x lvl shieldless and having about 50 def.
My barb was lvl 93 with more than 4k ar, using a shael shael emerald flail and a shael shael sapphire flail.
I made 10 passes through him from a distance and in all cases he got both chilled and poisoned.

I`m gonna trade for 2 5s flails, 4 shaels and 6 sol runes and do the second test as soon as i can (RL and my connection may delay this).

 

[RTB]

that seems a valid point-gamecode contain rules but no references-the relationship between rules & references/objects is dynamic & plays out in the game.

Which is why most people check the game code then test whether their theory is right in-game. I haven't played a dual-wield WWer in a long time, so my in-game knowledge on it is limited. I guess that means I'm no longer trusted on this subject.

But quoting from AS wasnt a good idea when dealing with RTB IMHO. :innocent: That place doesnt believe in detail or important facts.

When dealing with anyone really.

But as I am doing my in game dualwield testing-I am beginning to believe RTB shouldnt be so easily believed-since all he does is blind copypaste work AFAIK..without doing some testing himself :innocent: .Like you said it only takes a simple error & the man who fleshed most of that stuff out-Hammerman said himself he isnt 100% sure about this.

Fine. Then you don't believe me, and Hammerman only partially. If tests are the only things that'll convince you that something is true then you've still got a helluvalot of testing to do, because all formulas known so far have been from the game code AFAIK, and I've been around quite long.

People like you and Taz make people like me go elsewhere. :bow:

 

[rikstaker]

Fine. Then you don't believe me, and Hammerman only partially. If tests are the only things that'll convince you that something is true then you've still got a helluvalot of testing to do, because all formulas known so far have been from the game code AFAIK, and I've been around quite long.

People like you and Taz make people like me go elsewhere. :bow:

I did it... I annoyed the green guy. :flip: .

RTB,ww demands a different approach-game code reading will never be enough.Why? The sheer number of factors involved in wias,range,whirl speed,target size/speed/direction etc & now I am beginning to believe target placement..yes...atleast in the case of dualwielding.

I saw four fire swirls from my secondary weapon RTB, on a yeti type monster each pass-..I got my cold & poison facet ready,I'll report detailed results asap-so you can start a return traffic of (accurate info this time) from here to LL :evil: I hope so.

Rik

 

[rikstaker]

Forget that target placement thing earlier,since I couldn’t explain my results-they are so entirely different from what I've known(secondary doesn’t attack often on single target) & what RTB/Hammerman suggest.

TEST:

Giant sword of swiftness:shael,jah,poison facet
Fiery Giant sword :shael,shael,jah,(fire damage from prefix-red blade)

Target: players 8 canyon of magi hell-crusher-yeti type-cold immune

-Base runwalk & leviathan(medium) armor.

Primary-poison facet sword:(on barb’s right hand)

Target status-always poisoned on pass & on avg in about 30 whirls- 3 fire swirls counted each pass-at times I could count 4,at times 3(~60-40ratio),rarely 2 & on one or two occasions no fire swirl.

Primary-Fiery Giant sword:(on barb’s right hand) Exactly the same results- same average.

What are the implications of this? if this ingame testing is to be believed(anyone can check this themselves) this turns the primary-secondary theory on its head. WW alternates between two weapons against single targets-I noted from the tests that regardless of which is on right/left-both weapons manage multiple hits on single target,if it is in range long enough.

That was a large size target though-against a player it would be a hit or two less I believe.I didn’t notice any durability irregularities,both swords lost there durability at more or less the same rate.

Any comments...

edit:

Fine. Then you don't believe me, and Hammerman only partially. If tests are the only things that'll convince you that something is true then you've still got a helluvalot of testing to do, because all formulas known so far have been from the game code AFAIK, and I've been around quite long.

RTB you are the most credible source of info around & you know it,I dont have a problem with code disassembly to find out formulas,thats fine with me.But ww factors are dynamic & object/target dependant-game code disassembly is not sufficient or 100% accurate I believe.

Rik

 

[mstrnicegui]

since all he does is blind copypaste work AFAIK..without doing some testing himself

@rik
"There he goes again" :lol:
c'mon man, either he's credible or he's blindly copy-pasting. I believe RTB has enough sense that his copy-pasting ability is the second step after the info goes through his filtering process. That would negate the blind part, but that's just me.

 

[rikstaker]

@rik
"There he goes again" :lol:
c'mon man, either he's credible or he's blindly copy-pasting.

:drool:

Well atleast for formulas & stats he is credible-(I was referring to his comment on them) but his filtering process when it comes to ww has got some obvious flaws-IMO :innocent: .Game code reading will never be sufficient for ww.

For ww..in-game testing is important & You need the best of both worlds to be credible:you need to know the technical rules & functioning of bp, range etc & you equally need vast in-game experience on how those rules play out in relation to game dynamics-I cant think of somone who has considerable expertise in both areas..who'd it be..me? Aw shucks.. :thanks:

Sigh..I am such a

Rik

 

[mcm]

I've already shown that both weapons CAN hit a single target after the 4th frame in a thread long ago. Recording damage from a fabricated and consistent damage weapon (200-201 damage for instance) on a naked player opponent with a lot of life is about the best way to achieve this.

http://www.rpgforums.net/showpost.php?p=2237573&postcount=15

 

[mcm]

Rik your comment about code somehow not shedding light on the behaviour of the game system it implements is simply ridiculous. This isn't some sentient organism whose behaviour evolves or changes or is otherwise inherently unknown.

ITS A GODDAMN PIECE OF SOFTWARE.

I'll say it one last time:

THE
CODE
DEFINES
THE
GAME

It would probably behoove you to realise that nobody outside of Blizzard is "game code reading", they are disassembling binaries and reconstructing pseudo code. It's not a very fast process and there are bound to be gaps, and some findings require assumptions that may not be accurate.

If Blizzard ever release their source (BAHAHAH YEAH RIIIGHHHTT) *THEN* all will be known. Computers and software are not magic with blue coloured text, as much as this game might have you believe.

 

[rikstaker]

Rik your comment about code somehow not shedding light on the behaviour of the game system it implements is simply ridiculous. This isn't some sentient organism whose behaviour evolves or changes or is otherwise inherently unknown.

Will Mr.mcm point me to that comment? or should I help search?

1.That seems a valid point-gamecode contain rules but no references-the relationship between rules & references/objects is dynamic & plays out in the game.
2.RTB,ww demands a different approach-game code reading will never be enough.Why? The sheer number of factors involved in wias,range,whirl speed,target size/speed/direction etc
3.-Game code reading will never be sufficient for ww.

Note:contains rules,Note:ww,never be enough,sufficient,.That doesnt quite fit into your fantasy rant of 'Rik says it doesnt shed light on game system,he believes its magic or some organism that acts on its own..blah..crap..blah.'

There are variables involved in gameplay particularly with the targets due to which it is difficult to ascertain realistic output estimate from the code alone.For the umpteenth time,I dont have a problem with codes-I know they establish the rules which is first & foremost,but I have a problem with your pathetic attempts to prove that I do.

The sooner you seal those gaps in your in your head from which the powers of understanding seem to be leaking the better it is for us or rather you..:

You probably dont fully understand what I or some others say & what we meant-so you throw all that in your own mixer blender & treat it as you please & bend,twist & present something which we never meant in the first place.Then you add your own fantsasies into the dish and whoaa we get--crap.

It is no surprise-since for you a free check on the 4th & 8th frame immidiately means IAS DONT MATTER &... we all are going the wrong way & should see 'light in your arguments' & take you as our messiah.. :worship:

Computers and software are not magic with blue coloured text, as much as this game might have you believe.

Consider me enlightened. :thumbsup:

Whats the point in posting all the junk above & then sharing my concern:

It's not a very fast process and there are bound to be gaps, and some findings require assumptions that may not be accurate.

Try to post something which makes sense once in a while or I wont be so keen on favoring you with a reply next time around.

Regards.

Rik
----------
sorry mods.

 

[rikstaker]

Incase you don’t understand my position on the issue by default-I’ll try my best to make it clear to you through someone else’s comment.The point made by RTB is my stand on the issue.

that seems a valid point-gamecode contain rules but no references-the relationship between rules & references/objects is dynamic & plays out in the game.

Which is why most people check the game code then test whether their theory is right in-game. I haven't played a dual-wield WWer in a long time, so my in-game knowledge on it is limited. I guess that means I'm no longer trusted on this subject.

I am not the only one who thinks game codes contain rules but no references & therefore tests must be carried out in-game as well.So what are you going to say to him?

Rik

 

[Whitehaze]

another question:
how is the animation of ww hit if both hit at the same time, two whacks or only one whack but two hits? or can we say both swords benefit from elemental and poison effects?

 

[Halciet]

So what are you going to say to him?

I am going to say to all of you that these personal insults and flames better stop, or I'll ban the lot of you. I don't care who started it; anyone who participates in these little exchanges is just as guilty as the other of breaking forum rules.

-Hal

 

[rikstaker]

another question:
how is the animation of ww hit if both hit at the same time, two whacks or only one whack but two hits? or can we say both swords benefit from elemental and poison effects?

Both weapons dont share their individual on-weapon attack mods or elemental damage,only the off weapon sources.When you see a fire swirl the weapon that packs it has hit,when you see poison,the weapon that packs it has hit.

Rik
-----------------
@Hal..roger. :innocent:

 

[Whitehaze]

i didnt ask that, i asked about the hitting sound effect 2 diffrent sound or only 1?

 

[mstrnicegui]

or can we say both swords benefit from elemental and poison effects?

Both weapons dont share their individual on-weapon attack mods or elemental damage,only the off weapon sources.When you see a fire swirl the weapon that packs it has hit,when you see poison,the weapon that packs it has hit.

You didn't ask that? But to answer your first question, if you get a hit with each weapon on the same frame you would hear both hits. Try it with weapons from different classes which have different hitting sounds. I tested with a phase blade and mace. I do not know if the game knows to play only one sound if you're using two weapons of the same type, but it would only sound like one hit in that case.

 

[Taz]

How frequent u hit with 2 weapons compared with one weapon a single target:
Best i can imagine is as follows:
- a target : defenceles... a naked player woud do
- 2 weapons with range 3, hitting last bp, and with as little differnce betwen max and min dmg possible ( 5 soketed flail with 2 shaels an 3 jewels 8 min dmg)
- ww target using 2 such flails 20 times, record the damage it takes each time and get the medium dmg
- ww target using 1 such flail 20 times, record the damage it takes each time and get the medium dmg
- finally u can compare the values
My guess is the medium damage in the first case will be ~50% times higher than in second case.

And all this testing just to prove that the quote from arreat summit is correct or not. Strange but true.

I just tried this on realms and got this results:
1) using 1 flail:
- 123 123 121 125 125 100 100 123 124 123
medium dmg: 118
2) using 2 flails:
- 248 249 248 272 249 248 149 220 269 220 249 199 223 249 195
medium dmg: 232

So the medium dmg when dual wielding was ~96% higher than the first case.

Other mentions:
- i tested dual wield 5 times more as i saw the values varied a lot.
- target was a stationary naked player
- i ww-ed from some distance right through him
- my listed dmg was 141-142
- my ar was ~3.5k and i was higher lvl than target
- i had no other source of dmg (cb, ds etc)

 

[mcm]

Taz, even on a defenceless player you have a maximum of 95% chance to hit, this is probably the best explanation for the slight damage discrepancies.
This has been shown before in any case -- it should be clear that both weapons may attack a single target at the same time.

 

[Taz]

Taz, even on a defenceless player you have a maximum of 95% chance to hit, this is probably the best explanation for the slight damage discrepancies.
This has been shown before in any case -- it should be clear that both weapons may attack a single target at the same time.

I knew about the 95% cth cap, beside this:
- the low dmg inflicted
- the fact that listed dmg varies (141-142)
- the big number of hits per pass
- the possible "rounding downs" in dmg calculation,
may also explain the variations.
The thing i`m sure about is that in dual wield`s case the number of hits is significantly higher.