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C/C PvM 'Shadow Walker' : i've tried to write a guide :p i

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by tl998, Mar 13, 2004.

  1. tl998

    tl998 Banned

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    Seems expensive. With very little invetsed in dex, can something such as a Gimmershred even hit enemies in Hell? Can this build solo hell in one player mode with inexpensive equipment?
     
  2. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho IncGamers Member

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    Ya, Gimmershred has problems for hitting in Hell against bosses, i should have noticed it, as i've done it when mentionning magic dealing weapon with ITD when not a claw. Against other monsters it's quite fair. Famine runeworld is far better since it has ITD, but there is still the problem of PI bosses.

    That build have completed solo Hardcore players8 (except Hell Ancients completed players1 -sry i did not want to tempt it :p ).

    My equipement is expensive, but it's not the only one, that's why i've tried to mention other possibilities. Since assassins do not have that much life, they need PDR for close combat. Dracul's Grasp is the 'big plus' of the build, since it almost guarantee full life when hitting. Another good combination, cheaper (or quite easily findable with Meph runs, which are, in solo, easier to do than on BNet), would surely be :

    Dual Bartucs (you need to have good claws for good dmg, good leech, etc ...)
    Shaft + Tal Rasha or Vampire Gaze + another armor
    String
    crafted, rare or other gloves with 20% IAS
    crafted, rare or other boots
    Raven Frost
    ll crafted ring
    eye of etlich or any other ll ammy.

    That's roughly the equipment I started with, and it goes well though Hell, specially when you don't hesitate in using BF against tough monsters. With that kind of equipement, in solo players 1, monsters have not that much life, so using a maxed SM, with a magic dealing alternative set with BF is what I would advise.
     
  3. tl998

    tl998 Banned

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    That sounds reasonable. It's the 'alternative equipment' slots which is going to give me the most trouble. However, I do have the entire Nat's set. Assuming I carry around an Atma's Scarab for example. Would I still need altnerative equipment if I put on Atmas just for the PIs? I can use CoS and MB to good effect and prevented myself from getting swarmed I'm pretty sure.
     
  4. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho IncGamers Member

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    That's a pretty good idea I didn't think of ! Surely I should take a look at that, thx !! :)
     
  5. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    Hm....any particular reason for max SM, other than tanking? Seems like a waste to put points in SM solely as a tank, when you could be putting the points in an elemental AoE attack like PS, or perhaps a few points in DS to improve the killing speed a bit. I doubt an SM would make any noticeable difference in killing speed in Hell, given how long its reaction time for melee is.

    Also, how would Act3 Mercs fare as a source of elemental damage? Possibly better than Act2 Mercs overall?

    Good guide(except for some grammar and spelling errors), but the main thing I'm concerned about here is the lack of AoE skills and PI support(Venom is good, but it isn't enough in multiplayer games). Without absolute top-range claws, I have serious doubts about effectiveness in Hell. Sure, good use of CoS/MB/Shadow will keep you safe, but I'm not so sure about killing speed....

    For those you are thinking about Atma's, it may be helpful to compare whether it's a better idea to stick to a pure Physical setup and rely on Amp Damage(possibly even the Decrepify on the Reaper's Toll for your merc) to kill PIs(considering you'll only do 20% of your normal physical damage), or switch to a dedicated elemental damage setup against PIs, even if you're able to afford Amp/Decrepify weapons/amulets. EDIT: Oops, I think tl998 already asked the same question in different words.

    Also, Amp Damage vs. Decrepify on merc vs. Dracul's Grasp. Assuming all are within the budget of the reader, which would be most appropriate for this build? For HC, I'm guessing Dracul's Grasp, but what about SC?
     
  6. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho IncGamers Member

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    OK I've taken a look at all of that ...

    First of all, i've forgotten to mention it, my sin was played in solo mode, that's why some things can seem a bit odd to people used to play on BNet, inside a party (such as the SM pts). I should look at the best way to invest the points I was using for SM. Concerning the effectiveness, it's my best char in solo 1.10 players8. I finished Hell some days ago ^^. It asks more concentration and awareness than a sorc or a necro, but once you've learn how to handle the different kind of monsters it's quite easy !
    Concerning DS, yes I should have mentionned it too, you're right (but once agains I played in player8 mode, and DS drastically lose effectiveness in players8)


    Concerning Act 3 merc, they can help alot (specially with a good SM to tank), yet I find him useful only in few areas of the game (where PI nest), whereas act2 merc (should it be HF or Might) is useful almost everywhere.

    Concerning PI's, I have to see if some PI's keep their immunity when cursed with Decrepify and when cursed with AMP. The pb with Dracul's is that Life Tap will override AMP so against PI's you'll have to wear them off. Better gloves would probably be Ghoulhide against undead PIs (ghosts), or LoH against demons PIs (succubi, minotaurs). The pb is that it needs to keep 2 pairs of gloves...

    I will carry out some tests with Atma (don't have reaper's troll so ...), and try to compare with magic dealing weapon. But IMO, as chrystianel said once, Famine (if you can have the runes of course !!) is perhaps the better way to go. (is there a way to have ITD without having the mod on the weapon ?)
     
  7. alexmatusiak

    alexmatusiak IncGamers Member

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    Hey

    Just wanted to say that I never thought about a DC assassin before reading this guide ... but since reading it I've played nothing but my DC assassin !

    A point to note; early on to counter the mana cost of DC I just threw a Tir in her somewhere ... 2 mana for the attack, get 2 back when it kills. Seems obvious until you can properly leech and wear gear.

    I haven't used any traps yet, though, and I'm wondering how crucial they are once I get to hell? I just finished nightmare ancients so the voyage in Hell isn't too far off ...
     
  8. royalesse

    royalesse IncGamers Member

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    Blade sentinel

    Hi,

    I've been working on a DC sin for my Nat's set and just for kicks I've maxed Blade Sentinel. Apparently it works really well for DC sins since the only thing it carries is damage & elemental damage. It doesn't have the AR problem of Blade Fury so it might be ideal to transfer elemental damage on your weapon switch equip.

    The cast delay helps you mix things up with your DC and the timer get's pretty high. It's AoE damage and it carries both elemental and physical. You may want to check it out.

    Lastly on your off claw you may want to mention shadow killer. This is a good defense claw. If you get a Holy freeze merc & a Reaper's Toll the baddies will move pretty slow. If you add in a shadow killer into your DC then you'll have a frost nova going off as well and that plus the other 2 slows will make them crawl. The important thing is to not get cocky because the baddies come at you at full speed but then quickly get shut down once the Decrep and FNova start to go off. You still have to worry about ranged though... but that's what dflight is for :D

    o...btw... pretty good guide
     
  9. rild

    rild IncGamers Member

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    Fade?

    The guide looks great.
    I was never trying to play with sin, may be because there are so many builds.
    Anyway - may be this is the build that I will try, because is using all advantages of class specific assassin weapons.
    I have one Bartic and few Jade Tallons and Shadow Killers.
    That will be enough for me to start :)
    Natalya's Mark is only one that missed, but I think - I will find one :)
    My question is - why you ignoring Fade? Fade have great bonuses like physical resist, all resist etc...
    I think 5-10 points in Fade will be helpful?
    This will give you ~50% to all resistances.
     
  10. royalesse

    royalesse IncGamers Member

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    Looking at the equipment section... you'll either have a decent Fade from +skill items or you'll have all the resists and PDR you'll need from the equipment. Fade is a pre-req for venom so you'll definitely have 1 point in it.

    Lastly BoS doesn't stack with Fade and the increased speed is probably very important in dispacting baddies.

    Just an opinion though... can't speak for Duncan
     
  11. skygoneblue

    skygoneblue IncGamers Member

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    Nice idea, man! Even if a guide isn't perfect, I can always appreciate new ideas brought into the game.

    I do have one question that doesn't seem to have been addressed so far.

    When considering points into Claw Mastery and Dragon Claw, there are some obvious differences in payback per point invested into each skill. I know that DC gives a consistent increase in AR and Damage per skill points, but in earlier levels, CM would significantly raise your damage and AR moreso than DC. However, diminishing returns will make SM investments later in the game increasingly worthless. You included 15-20 into CM in your guide, which I think is appropriate, but I think some more detail would help out the readers.

    I think that a good idea would be to determine what your final equipment will be and find out the highest number of skill points into CM that you need. Since DC increases at a steady rate with each skill point, determine at what level the skill points in CM will no longer benefit your assassin as much as points in DC. Simply place enough "hard" points into CM so that your +skills in the endgame will bring you CM up to a considerably high level that isn't wasteful because of diminishing returns to the skill.

    Also, THANK YOU to whoever mentioned Shadow Killer. This claw is highly underrated and I have just been digging for a build that can use it! The frost nova and target freeze would work GREAT with the BF skill, and plus, it just look DAMN cool!

    FYI, I am trying a similar version of this build, but it is a more elemental approach. I am working on Maxing CoT, PS, and dropping considerable points into SM, CM, WB, and FoF for a meteor synergy. I'll let you know how it goes!
     
  12. skygoneblue

    skygoneblue IncGamers Member

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    Also note, I think it may be more effective for MY build to focus primarily on 1 point in DC and points in CM until I am hitting with BOTH DC and CoT at a consistent rate. When DC is your only claw attack skill, increasing it above 1 is obviously more important.

    Probably obvious, but I forgot to add it.

    Thanks for the guide bro! :yep:
     
  13. skygoneblue

    skygoneblue IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, I have another question. How does this set you up for resistances? I have ALWAYS had problems getting good resistances in Hell mode with my assassins, but I think I am going to 3-Um my Nat's armor to give me a +45 to all. What about this setup? The only items there with any resistances would be the crafted items, and those are hardly enough with -100 resistance (even with +30 from Anya quests).

    What do you do for resistances?
     
  14. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho IncGamers Member

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    Hi again

    Thx for the feedback ! I've not been able to go on the net for 2 months ... so sry for not having answered !! The idea of a Tir rune is quite great indeed ;)

    Yes, Fade can definetely be useful agains monsters that can deal high elem dmg (Souls ??? :p). However most of the time BoS is preferable. With Nat/Bartuc and 20% extra IAS you'll have a 15 fpa for a whole DC (7.5 frames for each swing) without BoS. You can also attack with BF when using Fade since its speed is unaffected by IAS and BoS.

    Concerning resistances, sure the Nat armor with Um or 15res jwls would help alot !! I've tried to focus on dmg since I had good crafted rings. I'll give my equipment later on.

    EDIT : so my final equip is the following :

    • Nat Boots
    • Nat Helm with 38%ED/+1-75 lit dmg jwl
    • Nat Armor with Cham rune, and 2 jwls that give +60%ED/+22 max dmg
    • Nat Claw with (hum ...) Ohm. A ED/max jwl would be better but i've not dropped another one for the moment ^^
    • Almost Perf Bartuc (199/9) with a 30%/14max jwl
    • Perfect String
    • Highlord's Wrath
    • Drakul's Grasp
    • Crafted ring 1 : +28 AR / +10% ll / +5 str / +17 life / +8 max stamina ( :rolleyes: ); +21% Fire Resist
    • Crafted ring 2 : +79 AR / +10% ll / +7 str / +17 life / +22% Fire Resist / +24% Psn Resist

    Concerning Charms :
    1 GC with +12% FHR / +15 all res (nice)
    5 GC with (in total) +49 max dmg / +335 AR / +12% FHR / +34 Life
    1 LC with +5 max dmg / +23 AR / +5 dext
    7 SC with +20 max dmg / +116 AR / +5% FHR / +2 str and +1 dext / +17 life / +12 MF

    My final res are 57/37/73/63 (fire/cold/lit/psn)


    As you can see, it's not a cheap equipment, but it works well (of course, the result is not as devastating as a trap sin or a sorc since it does no area dmg, but it's really fun to play ;) )


    Concerning skills ... roughly I agree on the fact that CM is to be leveled up first, up to lvl 10-15. The bonus in CS does not worth loosing more pts there at the beginning. Roughly I begin my sins like that :

    lvl 2-4 : CM (so 3)
    lvl 5 : DTalon
    lvl 6 : BoS, DC (I include there the Evil Den skill point)
    lvl 7-9 : CM (so it makes 6)
    lvl 10 : Psychic Hammer
    lvl 11 : Save skill point
    lvl 12 : WB, CoS (CoS can be useful early in the game)
    lvl 13-14 : CM (total 8)
    lvl 15-17 : the 3 prereq for BF
    lvl 18 : BF, SW (I include there the Radament Quest skill point)
    lvl 19 : Fade
    lvl 20-21 : CM (it makes 10)
    lvl 22 : DTail
    lvl 23 : Save skill point
    lvl 24 : MB, DFlight (can also be useful)

    Arrived here I usually have some ml (ammy most of time), so I start boosting DC

    lvl 25-28 : DC
    lvl 29 : save skill point
    lvl 30 : Venom, SM

    After that it depends. I usually invest on Venom more than DC since I won't be able to wear Bartuc before lvl 42, but it is more intersting to invest on DC so that you have more phys dmg to leech. I put some points in SM when I see she's becoming too weak. Generally, when I begin Anya Quest, up until Baal, my skill points are invested in SM so that I have a good tank. Finally, I don't invest more than 9 pts in SM since my equip brings a +8 shadow skills bonus.

    When both DC and Venom are maxed out, I usually invest skill points in CM so that I've got 15 pts INVESTED in. After it depends how I decide to play my sin. If I go for a FoF sin to deal against PIs more easily, well, I put the last points in FoF.
    On the contrary if I use a magic dealing weap (with Tiamat rebuke), or if I play with a sorc, a hammerdin, etc ..., I invest heavily in SM. if I play with a necro summoner or a trapsin, I've thought MB could be useful, for it stunning duration

    At last, i've found that this type of sin was really effective with a trapsin who decides to invest all her points in the synergies, with a might merc and a HF merc
     

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