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C/C melee skill advice

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Burn-X, May 26, 2008.

  1. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    C/C melee skill advice

    Forum lurker now finally have to ask a few questions :)

    I wish to make C/C melee Sin with Nat set and using Fade to pump up the PDR to 50%. So far I've planned the following skill points allocation:

    Fade: 14~
    Weapon Block: Max
    Claw Mastery: Max

    Thats roughly 56~ skills points used (including 1 point CoS) which leaves me about 44~ skills points at CLVL 90 left for offensive skills. I have the following in mind:

    Tiger Strike: Max
    Dragon Claw: Max
    Venom: Left overs

    So my questions are:

    1. Should Claw Mastery and Weapon Block be maxed?

    2. Does Claw Mastery work together with Dragon Claw?

    3. Which skill charms will benefit my build the most; Shadow Disciplines or Martial Arts?

    4. Is it viable to max Venom and use the remaining skills points on Tiger Strike?

    Open to suggestions and ideas.

    Note: Playing through LAN with a friend (party of 2 only), no mods. So if making gear recommendations, please keep them realistic :)
     
  2. dryzalizer

    dryzalizer IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    I would say that a Phoenix Strike Assassin is generally thought to be the best build for Nat's set around here, have you read this guide? I will try and answer based on your build though...

    1. No. Nat's Mark gives ITD, so at most you can put a few points into CM for bosses and your off-hand weapon. WB has severely diminishing returns, one point +skills should be enough.

    2. Yes, but that combination doesn't do much for you.

    3. Probably MA, but your build will still be underpowered.

    4. Venom offers good supplemental damage, after everything else you can put points into it. Tiger Strike is generally used if Dragon Tail is your finisher.

    The biggest problem I see with your build is that it has no area-of-effect/crowd control that will release on the Dragon Claw. Your build will only do damage to one enemy at a time. A PS 'sin can release fire explosions, novas, meteors, chain lightning, and more. You will be releasing your TS physical damage on a single enemy only. This also makes venom your only hope against physical immunes, while a PSer can stack venom and the other elemental damages as well.

    The other problem is that fade and BoS can't be used at the same time. Perhaps you have already considered this, but I personally prefer the IAS from BoS on my melee 'sins. It is a one-point-wonder which saves you skills, and you already have great dmg. reduction from Nat's. Your build will probably require IAS on your gloves, amulet (Highlords, which ain't bad), and maybe a shael in your Nat's Mark as well in order to hit a moderate attack speed breakpoint. You also don't mention Shadow Warrior/Master or Mind Blast, both of which would be essential with your build to keep from getting swamped by monsters.

    I don't think your build will work, Nat's set can't be a strong kicker because the boots aren't designed for it; can't be a great claw damager because of no crushing blow; your only melee option is releasing elemental charges like in the PS guide above.
     
  3. robzombiesslave

    robzombiesslave IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    phoenix strike asn would be nice.. however... you already used 56 points.. which makes me think you should lean towards tiger strike/Dtail and hope you're maxing fade. Imo pheonix strikers are nice, but so are ts/dt and I dont think you have enough points to make full use of phoenix strike.
     
  4. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    dryzalizer:

    You bring up many good points.

    Yes, I've read most, if not all, of the Sin guides on this site over the past years (been playing since 1.08). I've made a PS Sin before and didn't joy it too much. Then again that was pre 1.10 so maybe I might enjoy the build now.

    Yes, this is a 'delibrate' flaw in my build. Is not to say I want my Sin to be terrible in mob control rather it because I'm lacking the skill points needed to use the AOE skills. Here is the problem as I see it.

    Going C/C means Weapon Block is a must, so thats probably anywhere from 12 - 20 skill points gone (lets go with 20, get every percentage block possible!). So out of a realistic 100 skills points, I have 80 left.

    Since my main weapons are claws it goes without say that Claw Mastery is a must, so 20 skills points there too. Though Nat does indeed have ITD, my second claw probably won't and it doesn't work on bosses. So I'm now left with 60 skills points to use.

    60 skill points to be invest for offensive skills is a fairly good number to have (actually less because of prerequisites).

    As you've mentioned, Nat boots have low kick damage and Nat users can't realize kicking damage full potential. This leaves me with one option and thats to use my claws as my source of damage; max Dragon Claw. With about 40 skill points left, I can choice any single elemental charge up I want and PS for the synergy.

    So pretty much with 100 points, I can make a Sin that can have some sort of mob control. However, C/C setup in Nat means I probably low resist for a melee character in Hell. This is where Fade comes into play in my original build. The added PDR is nice as well.

    Sadly, sinking points into Fade take away skill points on my offensive capabilities, leaving me with at most 40 skills points to spend on MA tree which leaves me either without a finisher or less than stellar elemental damage.

    Maybe it isn't possible to make a C/C Sin using Nats, but I thought my build is capable. I never realized how limited the number of viable builds are for Nat set is (one!) .
     
  5. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    1. No. CM is very often best left at one point, sometimes a few points, and very rarely maxed. The most common thing for WB in PvE is to aim for level 10 or 11 after +skills. Often this just means a few points, or even just one.

    2. Sure. But CM's biggest gains come with the first point and +skills. The Critical Strike gains diminish steeply, the AR boost per level isn't that hot, and off-weapon ED is plentiful elsewhere.

    3. Neither seem like a good use of charm space for your build.

    4. It depends. It's hard to say without knowing anything about the other person you're playing with, but I see two big problems with your build solo, even with Venom: physically resistant monsters (which tend to have high poison resistance as well) and area damage. If you can rely on your teammate to address those issues, Venom might be a decent way to go.

    Also, I would also never max both Tiger Strike and Dclaw on the same build. They really do function better separately than together.



     
  6. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    robzombiesslave:

    Yeah, sadly I don't. TS with DT seems like a good route to take, though I suspect when I crunch the numbers with Nat boots I'm going to be unimpressed. Will looking into it though, thanks :)

    BIGeyedBUG:

    Interesting, I might be able to find those extra skill points I need for MA tree!

    Ah, never knew. So use DC as default attack for AR and damage boost? Hoping to avoid this, Sin crying out with every attack isn't pleasant :p
     
  7. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    TS+DC is about the same damage as DC-spamming. TS hits are weaker and DC hits are stronger when combined resulting in similar damage to just spamming medium-damage DC.

    If you want to kick, get real boots and screw the set.

    Don't waste points in survivability skills, rather get survivability from gear where needed, skill points are almost always better used for damage.

    Claw mastery will really depend on your AR gear. Missing a lot isn't fun but not doing damage with your main attack(s) isn't fun either. Just make sure you have enough AR with your build (close to 10k if you want consistent hitting without ITD, less if you use nat's with ITD since you're only going to miss bosses but still probably shoot for >5k for >65% chance to hit equal level bosses in hell).
     
  8. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    galzohar:

    Indeed; maybe they will release one last patch and have cube recipes to up set base item! I can always dream right? :p

    Hmm, the way I see it is if I get survivability skills then it opens my gear options rather than limit it (thats if I don't use Nat set any longer). Maybe not in the case for C/C melee Sin due to the lack of skills points?
     
  9. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    So much of it comes down to playstyle, personal preference, and what gear you have available. For instance, my background is mostly hc and untwinked, so I'd never give somebody advice like that.

    But so many of the key defensive skills the Assassin has can be one pointers, so it's almost a moot question anyway. :wink3:
     
  10. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    BIGeyedBUG:

    Yeah, I think thats what the consensus is so far.

    Anyway, going to be building this Sin. Figured if it doesn't work out then I lost only about 2-3 days worth of play time. Planning to go along with this skill allocation at CLVL90:

    MA Tree

    Tiger Strike - 9
    Cobra Strike - 1
    Dragon Talon - 1
    Dragon Claw - Max

    SD Tree

    Claw Mastery - Max
    Burst Speed - 1
    Fade - 13
    Venom - Max
    Weapon Block - 13
    Psychic Hammer - 1
    Cloak of Shadow - 1

    Will post back on the failure/success of this build, though probably many of you already can predict the outcome. Never hurt to try though :)

    Thanks guys for the help and input.
     
  11. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    Claw mastery and tiger strike don't mix. lvl20 tigers strike charging+releasing with lvl20 dragon claw does similar damage to just spamming dragon claw, so with spamming dragon claw you get same damage for 1/2 the skill point investment. Releasing with normal attack is even worse due to low attack rating with just claw mastery bonuses.

    Claw block and fade - again wasted investment. The defensive gear it saves you can't possibly make up for the damage you lose by spending those skill points there. And you really want a decent level (1 point and +skills possibly on switch to support it) BoS to get fastest attack speed - which will require much much less IAS than if you don't use BoS.

    1 point wonders are always nice if you're going to use them at least some of the time. Putting more points in something though needs to be more carefully considered - your build doesn't really do anything besides attacking stuff with dragon claw which really isn't all that great (but will get the job done, eventually).
     
  12. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    galzohar:

    Yes, I took note of this after I posted the newer build I planned to use; dropped TS and CS in favor of higher WB and getting MB and DF. Couldn't edit the post >_<

    I understand it is importance of hitting specific break points in attacking, thats why BoS is generally favored over Fade. After all a good offensive makes a good defense. :)

    If I do ditch Fade and pump BoS to hit 10 frame attack with DC, then Nat set is pretty much thrown out the window. Don't see how I'm going to get 89% ISA (Sheal on both Nat Mark and Bactus + Highlords +20% ISA on crafted/rare gloves = 80%):

    IAS Tables (most recent)

    A more realistic target is probably with a pair of Bactus with Sheal; then I just need an additional 20% IAS to hit the highest frame atttack (with Lvl 16> BoS).

    Maybe a build like this is more Hell capable:

    MA Tree

    Dragon Talon - 1
    Dragon Claw - Max
    Dragon Tail - 1
    Dragon Flight - 1

    SD Tree

    Claw Mastery - Max
    Burst Speed - 10
    Fade - 1
    Venom - Max
    Weapon Block - Max
    Psychic Hammer - 1
    Cloak of Shadow - 1
    Mind Blast - 1
     
  13. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    That looks a lot better. One easy adjustment is to reduce your WB. There really is no reason ever to max it, as you'll see if you look at how much you gain per skill point after level 15 or so. PvM, it's almost your solemn duty just to aim for slvl 9-11 after +skills. If you're really paranoid, there's another semi-decent breakpoint right at slvl 16. Anything past that is just throwing points away to the diminishing returns monster.

    I would probably recommend finishing up CM last, if you end up maxing it at all.

    Another thing to think about is a PI solution. Unfortunately, Venom isn't a particularly good one on its own. There are a bunch of ways to go, but the two simplest are a one point Death Sentry and a source of Amp/Decrep. Both of these are nice in that they'll do wonderful things for your build even when PIs aren't involved.

    Also, if you really want to use Nats, you don't -have- to reach the fastest breakpoint. It's really nice to do so, but a 5.5 or 6 frame DC isn't the end of the world, especially if it lets you do something else that you'd like to.

    One last thing--if going full out Dclaw sounds a little annoying, an alternative is to go 20 Tiger / 1 Dclaw, plus CM to taste. It's not as efficient, but it's less tedious IMO. Plus it cuts down on roughly 75% of the HYIYAHH! factor if you enjoy playing with the sound on. :wink3: And it makes downplays the IAS issues, since Tiger is so much more forgiving about reaching its fastest bps.
     
  14. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    BIGeyedBUG:

    I'm always feeding to that monster! Got me again >_<

    I will cut back the WB to Lvl16 and bump up BoS to Lvl12 that way a pair of Bactus will bring it to Lvl16. This build will use 95 skill points.

    So where should I put my remaining skill points after this? Though SM will be nice, I don't think is viable as leveling up past 90 is a real drag. My SM will be extremely weak for a very very long time.

    Isn't DC capped at 10 frames? I was thinking of hitting 10 frames which will allow Venom to take full effect at 8 frames of duration. If you are talking about each claw attack in DC being at 5 frames lowest, then I think I have to rethink this; won't it reset the Venom already on the monster again thus not taking into full effect?

    Going a bit off topic here; here is my list of end-game gear I currently can use when this character is completed:

    Equipment

    Helmet - Kira's Guardian
    Armor - Prudence (Archon/Mega Plate)
    Weapons - Bartuc's Cut-Throat (Sheal)
    Gloves - Soul Drainer / Dracul's Grasp / Ghoulhide / Laying of Hands
    Belt - String of Ears
    Boots - Marrowwalk / Gore Rider
    Amulet - Highlord's Wrath
    Rings - Nature's Peace / Manald Heal / Dwarf Star

    One key concern I have with this gear is the lack of resistances Without Jade, I need to get my resistances from other pieces of equipment. Yes, charms can help me here, but not to the extend in covering what I need. If Prudence and Kira's Guardian both have prefect resist (sure...), then I'm looking at 40 resist to all left to hit 75.

    Would swapping out Highlord's Wrath with Metalgrid (no Mara's Kaleidoscope, damn Summoner) and making a crafted gloves with 20% ISA be a better choice? Then I can get a few charms to reach maximum resistances.

    Feel free to comment.
     
  15. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    Some possibilities would be DS, BF, a stronger MB, and the Shadow. Shadows don't have to be maxed to be useful, particularly if you're prebuffing shadow skills on switch. A lot of people settle for level 17 or 18, though I find her handy to have even a few levels below that.



    10 frames for the attack itself, 5 frames for each "swipe". You're right about Venom resetting assuming you get two successful hits in succession. However you don't actually lose anything, and it gives you some protection in the event of a miss.

    Gotta go, I'll look at the gear later.



     
  16. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

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    Re: C/C melee skill advice

    My Sin is now level 50 and doing rather well in NM, then again jumping from Normal to NM have never been that difficult. My friend Windy Druid is pretty much demolishing everything at the moment. We both are so looking forward to Hell :p

    Also noticed from IAS Tables (most recent) that off-hand claws IAS is ignored. That leaves me with only one weapon to gain 40% IAS from my weapons to reach 10 frames on DC and that is Fury runeword. Not holding my breath on finding that Jah rune >_<

    Guess I have to make do with a slightly slower DC attack which is no biggie, but still a bummer I can't reach that magical 10 frames.
     

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