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BvC

Discussion in 'PvP' started by HappyAssassin, Sep 4, 2006.

  1. HappyAssassin

    HappyAssassin IncGamers Member

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    BvC

    Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads, and I wouldn't mind a resolution to it. I've noticed a lot of things on this forum since I've been here, and one of them is that it has a serious chubb for the BvC class. I have trouble finding a thread w/o a reference to their superiority, godliness, etc. Now, there are good BvCs. There are BvCs who beat just about everyone they face. But, I'm really, really tired of hearing how great the class is. The fact is, there are players of other classes who beat everyone they face. When people discuss the power or lack thereof of classes (and subclasses) on this forum, they tend to discuss them in terms of having decent gear, and decent players. For some reason, in the case of the BvCs, the player is assumed to be godly. I'm not sure why this is, but the emergence of threads like :" do you ww barbs ever got beaten," clearly shows that it is having an impact on the people who come here for advice.

    So, I'm looking for some answers. In my experience, the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win. Why are BvCs portrayed as so godly? Even their proponents admit that they require great ability to be good. I'll take it a step further. Most BvCs are terrible. I can only assume that a portion of these are people who have searched the web for a good pvp guide and come across things like that horrendously inflated win % table for BvCs. Whenever this is mentioned, the response is "Well, those aren't REAL BvCs," but apparently there are only around 5 so called "real" BvCs per realm. How elite do you have to make the players before a class becomes good? How absurb would it be if we compared all classes on the basis of only the very best players? It has no relevence to any average gamer who comes here looking for information. I've seen build ideas shot down on this forum because it was said that a BvC would beat it, and a BvC has to be part of any imaginary pub. What are the odds that McM is going to be in any given pub? Why should ANYONE plan their character on the basis of that? Furthermore, since in the context of planning for Pubs the average BvC is a weak opponent, why do we consider only the godly BvCs "real?"

    Imagine if we applied this attitude to all characters. Think of how many discussions have been derailed by someone (generally Ce Olba, but others as well) popping in and saying "A BvC would win in that situation because of "x". What's the point? What does it contribute? Imagine if all the skilled WWsin players on the forum did that. Then add in the skilled smiters. And the skilled Hammerdins. And Wolf Druids. And Elemental druids. Etc...etc...etc...

    What if instead of constantly advocating this one class as so superior, we just treat them like any other class?
     
  2. pedu

    pedu IncGamers Member

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    I agree. Cant think of anything else to say. :laugh:

    So ill just shut up now...
     
  3. emar

    emar IncGamers Member

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    I honestly couldn't have said that better myself. Kudos to you on the very comprehensive and accurate post.

    I completely agree with the attitude that 'BvC owns all here' and it kind of does deter me from reading or posting in this sub-forum. I will admit there are probably some very solid BvC players, but in your average Pub game - most BvC builds do not dominate. Lack of skill, or use, or charms or whatever excuse you give them, they aren't the best.

    While the build does have some great aspects (a good BO, Leap, WW. among other really strong skills) other classes do have some great aspects as well.

    You are right with this:

    the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win

    While there are many BvC supporters here, I think we should all realize that it IS the skill of the player and less so the build that makes for a win. Not always, but most of the time.

    Kudos!
     
  4. Arbedark

    Arbedark IncGamers Member

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    Wooo, spoken like the true Assassin Fanatic you are :thumbsup:

    I myself think this is 100% true, accurate whatever you want to call it. This BvC pimping needs to be toned down to a reasonable level.

    However this is unlikely to happen.
     
  5. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    If you understand my talking as if I suspect all BvCs to be godly, you're wrong. I clearly say that most players of barbarians have no idea of how they're played, which gives them a bad image, thus making people think that BvCs suck, so we have to bring up the good players to shut up the ones who think that based on their experience vs. random BvCs they can judge the whole class.

    BvCs are portrayed as godly only when weak people say that they own all BvCs when they really haven't faced the better BvCs. And yes, most barbarians in PvP are horrible.

    That's because BvCs are one of the classes which have only a bunch of good duelers whereas rest sucks. With smiters, for example, there are godly people, good people, crappy people, decent people, etc. This does not exist for BvCs.

    It depends from the information the gamer is looking for. If s/he is looking for a build, I will be one of the first to give it to them. If s/he is saying that BvCs suck based on his experience with pubs, I will be there with facts.

    Actually, mcm plays in a lot of pubgames. Whereas Luis only dueled in teams in private games versus good/godly people. And yes, BvCs have to be a part of an imaginary pub just as a Hammerdin, a Sorc and a Smiter too.

    Well, I just like things the way they are. Of course there are random factors such as lag, plain old luck, midjudgment, wrong gear, bad timing, bad prediction etc. Most of the time I compare characters with equal skill, knowledge and gear.

    There are only a few characters that can do that constantly, mainly hammerdin, WWsin, Fury/Rabies druid, BvC, Bonemancer.

    So you're saying that in guides people should say "If you're equal with the other player in skill and gear, it will be a tie no matter what. However if you suck, you lose. If you are godly, you win"? That would make no sense. If a class has clear advantages (WWsin vs. Novamancer or Fohadin vs. Windy), there's no need to even talk about the lesser skill people, as the outcome will mostly not change.

    And no, I do not say that BvCs beat everything. It's clear that they are equal with the best hammerdins and the best boners and they lose to the best BvBs. With the rest, it's debatable.
     
  6. Arbedark

    Arbedark IncGamers Member

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    This is utter bull.

    I've met BvCs who vary in skill from crap to mediocre to good and beyond...Don't make out like either you are a complete retard with a BvC or you are a God...Since it's just not true.
     
  7. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    Well, I've only seen bad ones, good ones and godly ones. Bad ones has the crappy ones, the extra bad ones, everything that's below good. Good is people who have the talent and patience to end up being good, such as some people do. These people just lack the gear and some skill to be godly. The godly ones are such as mcm, blobs, luis, morotsjos, aka the widely-known names and people who have extremely good skill, knowledge and gear.
     
  8. Arbedark

    Arbedark IncGamers Member

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    You said a bunch good, the rest suck. This implys that there are 2 camps.

    Nothing which is based upon the skill of 2 opponents is ever black and white. Of course there are varying skill levels, just like in other classes. Just because you decide to play a BvC and you stick with it and you get good doesnt mean you are a god. And just because you play with a BvC for a short while and are ok doesnt mean you suck, its all shades of grey.

    As is evidenced by this thread, just about everyone is sick of the "BvC this, BvC that" that is going on around here.

    Everyone talks about how godly the top BvC players are, yet is it not true that they go "50/50" with the top Bone Necro's, Hammerdins etc?

    Lets start pimping these as the best builds, since the Top Necro's etc can easily wipe the floor with any mediocre and pull the sort of win ratios that are pronounced, memorized and flaunted by BvC candidates as the BvC Bible...
     
  9. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.

    Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.
     
  10. Arbedark

    Arbedark IncGamers Member

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    Ce Olba hasn't played his BvC for nearly 6 months according to certain sources...after 6 DAYS of not playing sins I can barely namelock properly for a good couple of hours...

    Its not healthy to have an obsession with a single build for a whole forum. For the Barb Forum, sure. Follow the Druid Forum's recent obsession with Kiba or whatever.

    This is meant to be a forum for DISCUSSION about the different builds. Not "wont work, BvC >>> that"

    Ok then I'm gonna say that Hybrid Sins do everything a BvC can do, and do 80% of it better...got a caster that needs killing? Hybrid sin will do it easier. Got a BvB which needs killing? Hybrid sin should be able to do that easy, ZOMG NO! The fabled BvB, the "only" build that has even a remote chance to win vs a BvC, PWNT! by a simple Hybrid sin...

    Ergo, Hybrid sins pwn...
     
  11. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    Correct. This is how it mostly is.

    I know this. It's just that the more you play, the better you get. Most people do not bother to play a single character for multiple years to get extremely good with it, thus they suck on their BvCs and say BvCs suck just because they get beaten by good ones and they got beaten on their BvC.

    This might be so, but it's a fact that BvCs are a very threatening force in PvP, thus they should also get the attention they desire. After Blobs was banned, the BvC hype has gotten down a lot ( I do not go around saying I beat everyone 5-0).

    It is. Yet it's always like that. Even the godliest builds go 50/50 with some classes, it's inevitable unless there's a class that wins absolutely vs. everything, and then the PvP would be pointless as everyone could beat everyone and everyone would be using the same character.

    Well, BvCs do not lose as absolutely as Bonemancers do. Bonemancers get trashed by godly hammerdins and ES sorcs.

    Yes, you have a very good point. There are specific forums to discuss about individual classes, and that's where most of the BvC topics are in, the Barbarian area. But occasionally, a random people such as KaythonXE or chaozhc brings up that their character>bvc ez to the PvP forums and then a huge fight begins, where usually the BvCs are the winners.

    Well, been playing a BvC ever since 1.11 (that's when I got my first BvC geared and going), but I've been researching them for quite some time before I made my first BvC. I've also done constant discussions with people like mcm, luis and morotsjos to get opinions and knowledge. I've also spent a good deal on reading how other builds are supposed to beat BvCs, which gives me a good idea of how they will duel.

    Also, you shouldn't judge one by the time, but the knowledge acquired in that time. Which in my case is high.

    I can clearly say that best I know about BvCs.

    I really hate it when people start whining over BvC hyping, when it's clearly less than it was when Blobs wasn't banned. He was 100 times worse than mcm, morotsjos, me or luis. He was so cocky that it's almost funny.

    If you're looking at my thread history, yes back in December I was still asking questions. However, I made my first BvC the day after Ladder Season 2 ended. I've not gotten too much worse for not playing for several months.

    Yet it's not good to have a forum that spreads incorrect information just because they do not want to pump up a build, now is it?

    Well, it's so simple. If someone says that they can beat BvCs with build X, I want to see definite proof, such as videos of mcm or morotsjos losing 5-0. And also mathematical proof.

    Hybrid sins do better vs. some casters (sorcs, boners), but they cannot face smiters or other melee as well as BvCs can due to the fact that BvCs have more damage (that cannot even be reduced as much) and they have more life too. The BvB is the build that absolutely destroys BvCs. Bonemancers and Hammerdins are the builds that have chances to beat BvCs.

    Yet they lose to BvCs.
     
  12. Arbedark

    Arbedark IncGamers Member

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    Hardly. There are many different skill levels of players, even BvC players...not just Godly and Crap...

    Neither do you...you havent played a BvC for 2 years, let alone several...And actually a fair number of people are devoted to a specific class they like extremely well. Happy, Speeder, Kiba, Stoute just to name a few...So another nice false argument you got going there.

    And so are Hybrid sins. But people don't go pimping this build as much, or Bone Necro's. Admitted, hammerdins get pimped almost as much as BvCs, but then I get the impression that the average BvC player has a littler more intelligence than the average Hammerdin player...

    Then why continue making out that the BvC is this ultimate class that you refer to? Yes yes, you "always" say that BvCs need to be godly and whatever...once again this is a nice false argument. If I could have the effort to look up your previous posts I could find many where you simply state that a BvC is better than X...

    And BvCs get trashed by BvB's...so yes, they do lose as absolutely...

    And I really hate it when people start saying "BvC >>> all"...AND? It's not going to stop now is it? :wink3:

    And how would it be spreading false information exactly? In fact if there was less BvC pimping it would be more accurate information...instead of such stupid tables as the BvC win % one..

    Played a Hybrid Sin? :rolleyes: Hybrid sins do better vs casters, BvCs do better vs melee...Now call me a weird, BUT i tend to see more casters in games...THUS Hybrid sins win here....

    Yet BvCs lose to BvBs...
     
  13. De4dEyE

    De4dEyE IncGamers Member

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    Sounds like the whole Assassin caster killer vs Barb caster killer debate flared up in here, again..

    I'm of the mind that while the mechanics for the WW barb are very simple [leap tele ww], the actual learning curve is a bit surprising - otherwise you would see a million WW barbs in every pub game destroying anything non-barb.

    You have your Good players, your ok players, and your bad players. The barb population is outspoken here because 1) blobs and mcm [blobs quit iirc, and I haven't seen mike on for a while] would take on challenges about whether or not barb builds were overhyped, and take their opponents out 2) mcm has several videos of how barbs should be played, leading to fanboyism or misinformation about exactly how easy it is to win with a barb. It's pretty easy, but not that easy.

    Why don't you just ignore the threads? Barb builds are one of the more common duelers you run into, and many of the threads are not 'Are they invincible?', but are 'I'm having trouble killing this barb, please help'. Every forum has their favored build, this one seems to be Barbs.
     
  14. Arbedark

    Arbedark IncGamers Member

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    And Wizadept has videos of how easy it is to beat casters with his Kick / Bow sin...and also videos of how to perform specific moves...

    Making vidoes doesnt show anything. I could make a Video of an unstatted sin "pwning"...

    Also most threads are: ZOMG BVC SOUNDS GOSU! TELL ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO MAKE ONE!

    The Hybrid sin vs BvC argument got brought Up because I was making a point that BvC's aren't the be all and end all of duelers...

    And I also see less BvCs than most other classes in duel games..so they arent really one of the most popular builds, when compared with smiters, hammerdins, bone necro's etc...
     
  15. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo IncGamers Member

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    BvCs should not be hyped up as much as they are.. In 1 v 1 duels, a hybrid sin will have a better winning % than a BvC against varios opponents.
     
  16. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    BvC videos just happen to be more popular.

    Doesn't show anything? I disagree. It is fun to watch, and can actually learn a thing or two from it. As you said earlier, Wizadept teaches how to perform specific moves, etc. etc. Contradicting yourself?

    Most threads are not of such title. Usually you can find threads with BvC Help! or of such, but none of that tone. You are getting paranoid with the bvc hype and making it bigger than it seems. Even posting this will increase the hype and more people will become aware of it.

    So would you rather there was a huge amount of talk just on hdin or bonenec instead of bvc then? What would that change?
     
  17. De4dEyE

    De4dEyE IncGamers Member

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    True, but how popular are those videos? You see random pubs all the time commenting on how you should play your barb 'like that guy in the video'. And like I said [and you somehow ignored], videos can spread fanboyism or misinformation. They give an idea on how the build can be played, not whether it's dominant or not.

    And most threads are made by complete randoms that will never finish the build, never learn how to play it, and never actually be any good. So why do you care?

    And the Sin vs Barb argument comes up every damn time some kind of thread concerning a barbs effectiveness is created.

    And I see barbs everywhere.
     
  18. disc

    disc IncGamers Member

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    i agree with what your saying Dennis but there is a tendancy for threads to become dominated by bvc talk, for example a thread started this evening asking for a es orb guide has become a discussion on what classes a bvc can and cannot pawn. how does that help the thread starter? ce olba has good knowledge on a build he enjoys playing and this knowledge is useful to the rest of us but i think its not healthy for the forum if bvc dominates so may threads.
     
  19. SicHalo

    SicHalo IncGamers Member

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    Bah too much moaning,

    Most points brought up are correct majority of BvCs suck but this is due to the fact ppl don't take time to learn the char proeprly and it has a higher learning curve than most builds.

    I also like my other build like my mage ww/trapper as again this build can deal with most situations, but in all honnesty in most situatations for me my Barb will always be first pick.

    Im not quite sure on the assa vs caster and barb vs caster. Some areas i find barb stronger due to better tanking etc however the uses of mb and trap on my assa does help a hell of alot vs casters.
     
  20. Thoridian

    Thoridian IncGamers Member

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    Thing is my dear, that even crap hammerdins can kill someone, even crap fire/blizz/light sorcs can kill someone, even crap trapsins and lots of other builds can kill someone. Why? Because theyre REALLY easy to play and even with crap stuff they do good. While a BvC (or a WWsin) needs alot of skill and the best gear. I think that youll agree with me on the fact that someone whos got his BvC for lets say a week wont kill as much people as he would do if he'd play a hammerdin (for a week too). BvCs are hella` hard characters to play and to master, while for example all u need to do on hammerdin is:
    charge -> spam hammers -> repeat
    on firesorc:
    spray-and-pray
    blizzsorc:
    cast a blizz and teleport around, hope that ur opponent will run into it
    etc...
     

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