Bush says U.S. seeks to eliminate torture worldwide

Syxx

Diabloii.Net Member
Bush says U.S. seeks to eliminate torture worldwide

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush, whose administration has been hit by accusations of prisoner abuse, said on Sunday that the United States was committed to the elimination of torture worldwide.
In a statement to mark United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, Bush said: "Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right, and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law."

Accusations of prisoner abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have brought into question the policies of the Bush administration in treating foreign prisoners.

The United States has also been accused of sending some prisoners to countries with poor human rights records where they might be tortured. An Italian judge last week ordered the arrest of 13 people linked to the CIA for kidnapping an Egyptian terrorism suspect in Milan and flying him to Egypt, where he said he was tortured.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in March said the United States would never send terrorism suspects to countries where they would be tortured. But he acknowledged that once the prisoners were in the other country's custody, the United States had little control over their treatment.

"America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies," Bush said in the statement.

"All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: The United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you," he said.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=8894384

I'm stunned. With USA recent record of abuse in Afganistan and Iraq, how can President Bush even make such a speech ..... yet alone keep a straight face as he's saying it.

When it comes to eliminating torture, USA has no credibility, and no moral leg to stand on. The US Governemt should stops its own use of torturous acts and abuse of human rights, before it preaches to rest of the world, otherwise we are just going to shake our heads in wonder at their hypocracy.

Regards
Syxx
 

DaviddeJong

Diabloii.Net Member
The US are not really the most convincing advocates of human rights these days.... and Bush is a hypocrite for pointing out these wrong-doings in other countries while condoning abuse against it's own captured "enemies of the state" (If the accusations about the prisoner-abuse in Gitmo and Abu Graib are true, but I guess that's proven beyond doubt, just the scale of things are not clear yet, I think).

So, pretty lousy timing on his part... I don't think he'll win people over for his cause by this speech....

But, sure, the US doesn't support torture...... and Bush tries to stop it (in a country as North Korea for instance, where he uses it to strengthen his position in the nuclear-power/arms-discussion.). So, if he wants to state the obvious, let him!

David.
 

Twoflower

Banned
once again US try to clean up everywhere except in theyr own country... sad.

but a genious of a president, at least if you measure it by the definition in "hitchhikers guide" :lol: :thumbsup:
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Ok, folks, I'll just throw this out there for you to shred -

If the leader of say, <Holland>, got on a soapbox and condemned human rights abuse, would anyone hear it?

You can ridicule the U.S. all you want to about its human rights "abuses". The fact is, this absolutist crap is exactly what countries like China have to use in order to defend their own records. Is the U.S. squeaky clean? Hell no, as everybody knows - and we're getting an extreme amount of bad press at this point. But individuals trying to compare us with Pol Pot or his contemporaries, while other nations' leaders are trying to imitate him, is so much lying bullcrap that they ought to be ashamed.

It is kind of like saying, "Well, you put underwear on the heads of street thugs in Iraq, so we're perfectly within our rights to rip the toenails off political opponents! Who are you to judge us?"
 

Tridge

Diabloii.Net Member
it reminds me of "the pot calling the kettle black", if you're familiar with that.
suffice to say that "prestige" not withstanding, the United snakes of Aggression are one of the LAST countries on this planet that should be "speaking out" against such things... (the national government and the corpRATS, mind you. the masses at large should be so bold as to express thier discontent on such a stage.) *delete*, they wouldn't even do it if it wasn't such good PR for the President. He's got brass ones, to say the least.

Tridge,
Don't bypass the word filter again.

Freet
 

DaviddeJong

Diabloii.Net Member
jmervyn said:
Ok, folks, I'll just throw this out there for you to shred -

If the leader of say, <Holland>, got on a soapbox and condemned human rights abuse, would anyone hear it?

You can ridicule the U.S. all you want to about its human rights "abuses". The fact is, this absolutist crap is exactly what countries like China have to use in order to defend their own records. Is the U.S. squeaky clean? Hell no, as everybody knows - and we're getting an extreme amount of bad press at this point. But individuals trying to compare us with Pol Pot or his contemporaries, while other nations' leaders are trying to imitate him, is so much lying bullcrap that they ought to be ashamed.

It is kind of like saying, "Well, you put underwear on the heads of street thugs in Iraq, so we're perfectly within our rights to rip the toenails off political opponents! Who are you to judge us?"
I already admitted, comparing the US tortures (in Abu Graib and Gitmo) to those of (for instance) the nazi's (but the same goes for Pol Pot) is pretty harsh, both in severity and in systematic nature of it (in nazi-times).

But, yeah, I'll ridicule the US about it's human rights abuses..... because it's wrong and because Bush is a hypocrite by lecturing others on it, especially now!

How nice of you to mention Holland, I'll do my best to compensate for the fact nobody ever listens to us Dutchies....... :p

David.

EDIT:
p.s.: I don't think the US are the LAST country that should be condemning torture though..... they're pretty civil compared to a lot of countries in Africa, Asia and even South America.
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
DaviddeJong said:
How nice of you to mention Holland, I'll do my best to compensate for the fact nobody ever listens to us Dutchies....... :p
Well, y'all do make good cheese & gingerbread. But that hardly means people will listen to you, or Mary Robinson, or whoever that dud(e) from Luxembourg is, when it comes to human rights.

OTOH, when Condi was telling the Saudis & Egyptians this, it was apparently kind of a bucket of cold water in their faces. These two are so palsy-walsy with the U.S. that they don't take human rights terribly seriously. Turning the tables, if China told N.Korea to clean up its act, do you think Kimmy would give the Chinese the 2-fingered salute?
 

DaviddeJong

Diabloii.Net Member
jmervyn said:
Well, y'all do make good cheese & gingerbread. But that hardly means people will listen to you, or Mary Robinson, or whoever that dud(e) from Luxembourg is, when it comes to human rights.

OTOH, when Condi was telling the Saudis & Egyptians this, it was apparently kind of a bucket of cold water in their faces. These two are so palsy-walsy with the U.S. that they don't take human rights terribly seriously. Turning the tables, if China told N.Korea to clean up its act, do you think Kimmy would give the Chinese the 2-fingered salute?
Yep, we're small and we know it.

(You should have seen the footage that was taken when our PM visited the White House; just before he entered the room Bush asked his advisors to repeat our PM's name a couple of times (Jan-Peter Balkenende). He said: "Well, I'm not gonna remember that!! I'll just call him John-Peter....... " :lol: . ) He gave him about 5 minutes of his time and then left for more important activities! :)

China would be even more hypocritical if it told Kim that..... so 2 fingers would be a good response, I think....

David.
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
DaviddeJong said:
China would be even more hypocritical if it told Kim that..... so 2 fingers would be a good response, I think....

David.
In all seriousness, China's record is virgin white in comparison to N.K.'s, so it really is a good analogy. However, the day China seriously pressures N.K. to improve their record is the day they travel to the moon by means of an acrobatic human pyramid.
 

DaviddeJong

Diabloii.Net Member
jmervyn said:
In all seriousness, China's record is virgin white in comparison to N.K.'s, so it really is a good analogy. However, the day China seriously pressures N.K. to improve their record is the day they travel to the moon by means of an acrobatic human pyramid.
Well, in absolute figures I think China is pretty bad (there are a lot of Chinese to torture!) but I guess what Kim does is worse than what happens in Chinese prisons.

They'll never clean up their act unless outside "forces" press for human rights. But I don't even think the US (and the nuclear-missiles-possible-talks) can make that happen.

David.
 

Suicidal Zebra

Diabloii.Net Member
jmervyn said:
Ok, folks, I'll just throw this out there for you to shred -

If the leader of say, <Holland>, got on a soapbox and condemned human rights abuse, would anyone hear it?

You can ridicule the U.S. all you want to about its human rights "abuses". The fact is, this absolutist crap is exactly what countries like China have to use in order to defend their own records. Is the U.S. squeaky clean? Hell no, as everybody knows - and we're getting an extreme amount of bad press at this point. But individuals trying to compare us with Pol Pot or his contemporaries, while other nations' leaders are trying to imitate him, is so much lying bullcrap that they ought to be ashamed.

It is kind of like saying, "Well, you put underwear on the heads of street thugs in Iraq, so we're perfectly within our rights to rip the toenails off political opponents! Who are you to judge us?"

I've got to wonder what this has to do with the price of eggs. We can do the Administration a favour and convienitiently forget abberation such as Abu Ghraib, or give them a free pass on dodgy goings on in Gitmo. However far more of import is the fact that for decades the US has been actively supporting nations that torture, using intelligence gained under that torture and barely paying lip-service to Human Rights advocacy groups.

Bush, Rummy and Condomi can prattle on about how they are "committed to the elimination of torture worldwide" but until I see some tangible evidence of this rather than a continuation of the status quo i'll happily say 'pull the other one, it's got bells on'.

And who cares if smaller nations would be ignored by saying this. You're the effing super-power round here, step the hell up to the plate.


ASIDE: I wouldn't be willing to bet on what Kim would do given a crack-down by China, the guys more nuts than a Marathon Bar. For all we know he'd go tell the big C to go fornicate with a duck, though one hopes that his military underlings would recognise the stupidity of this action and shut him up.
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Suicidal Zebra said:
I've got to wonder what this has to do with the price of eggs. We can do the Administration a favour and convienitiently forget abberation such as Abu Ghraib, or give them a free pass on dodgy goings on in Gitmo. However far more of import is the fact that for decades the US has been actively supporting nations that torture, using intelligence gained under that torture and barely paying lip-service to Human Rights advocacy groups.

Bush, Rummy and Condomi can prattle on about how they are "committed to the elimination of torture worldwide" but until I see some tangible evidence of this rather than a continuation of the status quo i'll happily say 'pull the other one, it's got bells on'.

And who cares if smaller nations would be ignored by saying this. You're the effing super-power round here, step the hell up to the plate.


ASIDE: I wouldn't be willing to bet on what Kim would do given a crack-down by China, the guys more nuts than a Marathon Bar. For all we know he'd go tell the big C to go fornicate with a duck, though one hopes that his military underlings would recognise the stupidity of this action and shut him up.
I love the way you brits post, SZ :)

You're right, of course, the fact that we continue Cold-War-era support for monstrous types is a much more important issue. It is also far less publicized; it is far more fun screaming BLCD than pointing to the way we support places like Egypt or some of the 'stans - for either U.S. political pole.

Still, I think Rice's comments were a needed change in the status quo. Of course, whether action follows is to be debated; after all, Clinton didn't much care regarding China, nor has Shrub batted an eye regarding Vietnam (or Burma?).
 

nnndave

Diabloii.Net Member
Tridge said:
it reminds me of "the pot calling the kettle black", if you're familiar with that.
suffice to say that "prestige" not withstanding, the United snakes of Aggression are one of the LAST countries on this planet that should be "speaking out" against such things... (the national government and the corpRATS, mind you. the masses at large should be so bold as to express thier discontent on such a stage.) Sh*t, they wouldn't even do it if it wasn't such good PR for the President. He's got brass ones, to say the least.
so... lets see, the "United Snakes of Aggression" has never done ANYTHING for you, has it? Do you honestly think anything the president says to the media has anything to do with what's actually going on? No.
 

plasmo

Diabloii.Net Member
Bush says things that sound moral / ethical / religiously correct because it gets him more support. As every "great" leader knows ("great" in that they are able to get people to support them, not in their ethics or other actions), if you keep saying something enough, some people will eventually believe it.

Of course, let's not forget that the Democrats do the same thing. Although, Jon Stewart kept pressing Howard Dean to give him real, everyday examples of what the Democrats would do if they were in the White House (Dean didn't, even though Stewart pressed him about 3 different times), whereas Fox News won't get even remotely confrontational with Republicans (Stewart did kiss Kerry's butt long ago, though). So while both sides are slimy say-one-thing-do-another-liars, at least the Democrat "news"casters are a little more forceful in trying to get the reality.

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
plasmo said:
So while both sides are slimy say-one-thing-do-another-liars, at least the Democrat "news"casters are a little more forceful in trying to get the reality.
I just think it's hilarious that you're using Jon for your comparison. I am certain you could find a "legitimate" media type that attempted to mildly grill a Dem on something, but the idea that you used a Comedy Central show to make your point is delightful.
 

Suicidal Zebra

Diabloii.Net Member
jmervyn said:
I just think it's hilarious that you're using Jon for your comparison. I am certain you could find a "legitimate" media type that attempted to mildly grill a Dem on something, but the idea that you used a Comedy Central show to make your point is delightful.
Glad to see i'm not the only one to think that :D

Tridge said:
it reminds me of "the pot calling the kettle black", if you're familiar with that.
suffice to say that "prestige" not withstanding, the United snakes of Aggression are one of the LAST countries on this planet that should be "speaking out" against such things... (the national government and the corpRATS, mind you. the masses at large should be so bold as to express thier discontent on such a stage.) Sh*t, they wouldn't even do it if it wasn't such good PR for the President. He's got brass ones, to say the least.
I really should have put this in my earlier post, but in case I didn't make it clear the USA is one of the first nations that should be speaking out about such things, IMV at least. Maybe then something will get done rather than have the EU whine and complain from the sidelines, the UK make broad and sweeping generalisations without having the power to do a damn thing about it alone, or Russia... well lets leave it at that shall we.

The US is the only one with the influence, mainly financial, to put pressure on these nations for now. The EU is in too much disarray at this time and could never settle internal differences in policies to make any speach worth more than a Texans used chewing tabacco, and no other large trading bloc have the desire to change things.

So, I am in favour of the US saying something if they intend to follow through, something that the haven't done in foreign policy of this import in some years. Till then, you guys will have to pardon my skepticism, but I think we've all heard it all before.
 
Just for the sake of the irony...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050624/pl_afp/unustortureguantanamo_050624195043

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo and Iraq, Afghanistan: UN source

Fri Jun 24, 3:50 PM ET

Washington has for the first time acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.

The US mission to the UN institutions in Geneva was unavailable for comment on the report late Friday..

"They are no longer trying to duck this, and have respected their obligation to inform the UN," the Committee member told AFP, adding that the US described the incidents as "isolated acts" carried out by low-ranking members of the military who were being punished.

"They will have to explain themselves" to the committee, the member said. "Nothing should be kept in the dark."

UN sources said it was the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities.

The Committee, which monitors respect for the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, is gathering information from the US ahead of hearings in May 2006.

Signatories of the convention are expected to submit to scrutiny of their implementation of the 1984 convention and to provide information to the Committee.

The document from Washington will not be formally made public until the hearings.

"They haven't avoided anything in their answers, whether concerning prisoners in Iraq, in Afghanistan or Guantanamo, and other accusations of mistreatment and of torture," the Committee member said.

"They said it was a question of isolated cases, that there was nothing systematic and that the guilty were in the process of being punished."

The US report said that those involved were low-ranking members of the military and that their acts were not approved by their superiors, the member added.

The US has faced criticism from UN human rights experts and international groups for mistreatment of detainees -- some of whom died in custody -- in Afghanistan and Iraq, particularly during last year's prisoner abuse scandal surrounding the Abu Ghraib facility there.

Scores of US military personnel have been investigated, and several tried and convicted, for abuse of people detained during the US-led campaign against Islamic terrorist groups.

At the Guantanamo Bay naval base, a US toehold in Cuba where around 520 suspects of some 40 nationalities are held, allegations of torture have combined with other claims of human rights breaches.

The US has faced widespread criticism for keeping the Guantanamo detainees in a "legal black hole," notably for its refusal to grant them prisoner of war status and allegedly sluggish moves to charge or try them.

Washington's report to the Committee reaffirms the US position that the Guantanamo detainees are classed as "enemy combatants," and therefore do not benefit from the POW status set out in the Geneva Conventions, the Committee member said.

Four UN human rights experts on Thursday slammed the United States for stalling on a request to allow visits to terrorism suspects held at the Guantanamo Bay naval base, and said they planned to carry out an indirect probe of conditions there.
 

Ranger14

Diabloii.Net Member
I don't just don't get it. What do the Bush haters want him to do? Ignore that there have been problems with torture amongst the ranks. Not make any statements and try to change anything?

I find it amazing that people think that our military should be flawlessly perfect throughout its ranks and if it isn't, its Bush's fault. I didn't vote for Bush and I am not a Bush fan, but I am smart enough to know that Bush can't possibly make sure that every facet of every department of the goverment runs without any trouble. There aren't enough hours in the day for any one person to be solely responsible to make sure our budget is balanced, take care of health care, social security, homeland security, defense budget, poverty,etc.

When I was HR director for a former employer, it was impossible to know about all the crap before it happened. Once you find out, you try to change things to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it does, did that make it my fault? You can't expect your people, workers, soldiers all to be perfect. You have to get rid of the bad eggs and move forward, but due to the nature of people it can end up being a never-ending cycle. I don't care how much effort Bush made to end torture throughout our ranks. It ain't going to happen as there are always going to be bad eggs that you don't know are bad eggs until it is too late. I hate to break it to you all, but this ain't a perfect world.
 
Top