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Building Iraq's Army: Mission Improbable

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by llad12, Jun 12, 2005.

  1. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Building Iraq's Army: Mission Improbable

    If you haven't read this article, I strongly recommend that you do so.

    Some highlights of it are below:

    There's more ...

    Do you like what you are reading? There's still more:

    There's much more at the Washington Post

    Comments?
     
  2. Steve_Kow

    Steve_Kow Banned

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    Iraqi units fought well at Samarra and Falluja, it seems unreasonable to expect them to reach U.S standards of efficiency. It seems that they're just as effective as they were under Saddam (that is: some units are OK, many others are not).
     
  3. CyberHawk

    CyberHawk IncGamers Member

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    Well with there attitude of.."we wont be ready in 1000 yrs"...they will never be worth a crap. And I hate that they ride along side soldiers who give 100%, and end up dying becasue of a guy who thinks his enemy is better..and who also doesnt respect our soldiers.
    They lack the love of something. These terrorist kill their families..regaurdless if their in the military, and yet they blame us..becasue we haven't "made" them the best in less then 2 yrs. You cant train the untrained..or unwilling.
    And now their AK's are crap..sheesh. What do these guys want. Rockets and explosives like their enemy..maybe risk innocent lives when using such. The AK has been proven thru many wars to be one of the best assault rifles...yet they complain. These people just dont want to fight..period. I'm sure some do...but of course your informer who wrote this will mention otherwise.
    I think that the Iraqi's soldiers are doing fine...its just usual reporting on the "bad" issues....same ole' same old.
     
  4. Ranger14

    Ranger14 IncGamers Member

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    Same ol'... same ol' posting the negative stuff to promote your personal crusade to make our military and being in Iraq look bad. There's good and bad in every situation in any apsect of life in any country. People always tend to gravitate to the negative. The media covers negative news more than they do the positive. Negative news always travels faster and gets more attention to the positive things that happen. I am one who understands that and never buys into it. I choose to be positive in my way of thinking.

    I am sure not everything is all rosey for the troops in Iraq and the Iraqi soldiers who don't have the time, training, technology and knowledge that our troops have. It will take some time. Quote a couple Iraqi soldiers and that means everything is crap over there and there is no hope. Meh... :rolleyes:

    Here's some positive things:

    http://www.42id.army.mil/drumbeat/drumbeatfeb27.htm

    Here's an article that paints out some really positive things, but also shows some of the reservations still held. Much better journalism than painting only one side to an issue.

    http://www.startribune.com/stories/1762/5430902.html

    Well, here is another copy of the story if that link isn't working for some.

    http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/05/31/a2.int.warschool2.0531.html
     
  5. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    What did you expect from me Ranger? A pro-Iraqi war statement?

    If I recall, you were all for this stinking little war.

    So tell, me, how do you like it now on its third bloody year? Is it all you had hoped for? Do you want to see what is happening to our troops? That's no video game friend ... it's the real thing.

    The military can't recruit enough young men to go into this meat grinder. They are way down on their quotas for the volunteer troops. Hmm, maybe they will have to reinstate the draft. Gee, maybe they will take you.



    Do you know what that means?


    -------------

    Tell me Ranger, when are we going to leave this country that we invaded under false pretenses? When security is established? When democracy has taken root?

    Do you even have a clue about what this article really says?
     
  6. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    You really have to be kidding Steve. The old Iraqi army was completely disbanded. Out of all the units in the new Iraqi army, there are only three brigades that have been deemed battleworthy. That's it ... three

    The late Colonel David Hackworth stated that would take a minimum of 10 years to train an effective army. General Tony Zinni agreed with him. General Jay Garner stated that we would be over there for decades.

    Cripes ...

    Listen to another excerpt from this same article:

    How much are we spending over there ... a billion dollars a week? ... and the new Iraqi soldiers are sleeping on flattened cardboard or plywood?

    Tell me Steve, where are all your hard-earned tax dollars going?

    I can't even imagine the what the Iraqi military and people are going through much less what our own troops have to deal with on a daily basis. If nothing else, one should learn that war should only be used as a final option ... not the first option as the Bush adminstration seems to believe.

    ----------

    But don't worry boys ... just write it all off as old news ... it's just a psyops article from left.

    Go play your fricken video games and think about getting some poontang.


    No need to worry about war.

    It doesn't affect you.

    It's summertime. Go outside and play.
     
  7. CyberHawk

    CyberHawk IncGamers Member

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    Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mundays!

    only it aint Monday.... :lol:
     
  8. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Ya know what, Ill? I am perfectly willing to take this article at face value.

    However, in your unending quest to spit upon the current administration, military leadership, & U.S. foreign policy, I think you might have overlooked one wee little truth: The reporting, the unit in question, and the town are all in the Sunni triangle. In fact, this was one of the oil-profitable regions where Saddam kept 'human shields'. These are the hardcore Sunni Saddam-backers being covered, interviewed, quoted, & so forth. Are we supposed to be surprised that they are all maudlin about the good old days, when they were raping and pillaging Kuwaitis, as part of the well-equipped, well-fed Republican Guard?

    I won't start dissing you about your lack of perspective, but the Iraqis who were <not> part of the RG were often horribly armed, ill-fed, & so forth - and that was before the sanctions. Heck, even the RG I captured weren't very well-armed, with many of their AK's looking like they were on their last legs. And the uniforming was haphazard at best, though being bombed for weeks could account for their lack of dress sense.

    Like I said, I'm willing to take this at face value. But to have made this much progress in trying to bring the enemy Sunni "into the fold" actually strikes me as somewhat impressive. I don't know that I think it is the best tactic, but we may be a little concerned that if we put Shiite units into action in the Sunni towns, we'll be doing more damage. I can imagine some of the poor Shiite rotters I saw wanting to get a little payback on behalf of their sister or father.
     
  9. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    I'm sure you thought I missed that Jman, but I was aware of it.

    You want another chilling fact?

    Arizona Republic

    Nearly 45% ... that's far more than just the Sunni population my friend. Considering the heavy-handed tactics that our military frequently uses (eg., Fallujah), one could only expect that number to go up in the future.

    ----------

    Ponder this ... Major General Joseph Taluto, A senior US military chief, stated that 99.9% of those captured fighting the US were Iraqis.

    Gulf News

    Now that's just a tad different from the purported "Zarqawi insurgency" which keeps dominating the news broadcasts ... isn't it?
     
  10. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, I couldn't tell what with the standard issue rhetoric. It certainly didn't phase you in your quest.

    Um, okay, given that you trust everything you read that supports the gloom & doom drumbeat - any reason why you chose my 'home state' paper, reprinting an article from the Boston Globe? Wouldn't be that the Globe is just a tad too obvious, would it?

    Fine, again, I'm willing to pretend that these issues are as you represent them, or rather, as they are represented in the UAE paper. I'm also willing to float the idea that the Army National Guard commander is being quoted accurately, and isn't way out of line (think Karpinski) or scared spitless because his NYC homies shouldn't have been deployed to an overseas combat zone in the first place. Don't think for a second that I'm <really> accepting this at face value; units have Public Affairs Officers who handle this sort of thing and having a 2-star shoot his mouth off to foreign press frequently earns a hasty retirement.

    Therefore, you seem to be implying some secretive conspiracy to misrepresent the composition of the insurgency, and the other information coming from other sources. Otherwise, what's your point? The Baathists have a great chance of being let go when the dust settles, as long as they weren't part of the "Iraqi Al-Quaeda" - why shouldn't they surrender? The out-of-towners have their backs to a wall - therefore they aren't as willing to throw up their hands.
     
  11. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    Llad,

    Why are we sounding so shrill today? Scroll up, click on your video again. See that truck that gets blown up? I know that makes you mad. I’m not a robot, I gasped when I saw it. I really did. The people falling out of the truck struck a nerve. I agree with you. War is terrible, it’s awful. I hope I never have to see anything like that happen in my country.



    Unfortunately I have. Now before you get your panties in a knot about this weakness (or lack thereof) of any connection between who we're fighting and who was responsible, please bear in mind that I don't care. The fact of the matter is, this war isn't just on AQ, it’s on terrorist regimes that threaten us(at the time Iraq was thought by all to be harboring terrorists and stockpiling WMDs). And frankly, we've already traded blows with Saddam once. Taking him out was a good strategic maneuver. Helping Iraqis rebuild their nation is not only the right thing to do, but it is a good move as well in the overall War on Terror. Iraq is a battle, not a war. Your vision is shortsighted and in no way helpful. What would you have us do? Leave now? Forget all our interest in the region, all our interests in their oil, all our interests in global stability?



    Quit focusing on each casualty, no one disagrees that each death is a tragedy, we merely disagree that this war is as useless as you proclaim. And now that we’re in it, we’re in it. Foresight is 20/20. WMDs or no, going to Iraq was a good idea. Staying there now is also a good idea. Tell me please, what are you proposing and why? I’ve never heard anything from you except that we should never have gone in the first place.
     
  12. DrunkCajun

    DrunkCajun Banned

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    The US military can't even meet it's own recruitment goals. How do they expect to build an army in a foreign country when they can't keep their own up to snuff?
     
  13. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    How is it a good thing to stay when even the people who were in favour of you 'liberating' them don't want you there anymore?
     
  14. CyberHawk

    CyberHawk IncGamers Member

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    Oh so now thats the word from the entire country. Let me guess..some reporter thinks so..please.
    I really thought there would have been some "good words" somewhere inside ya's to say about us and why we are there. But thats abviously wishful thinking. Your thinking isnt much different than those who........ahh nvm, talking to some of you does no good. Better off making funny faces and fart noises with my underarm.

    *fart



    Steve, most agree with you..its just the "regualers" who make all the fuss. I guess nothing odd about the usual spectators.
     
  15. piff

    piff IncGamers Member

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    Is this really a surprise to anyone? Sure, there are many Iraqi communities that are glad we stepped in; those people could have been the next to die at Saddam's hands. But many others were protected well by Saddam by a military that could hold its own against nearby powers (though of course, not ours). No one can expect for an army to be willing if they are given nothing of value, nor any reason to fight, and that goes for any army. It's also not a shock that we aren't giving the Iraqi forces new, expensive materials. What's the point if they are just as likely to be blown up as the cheap equipment they have.

    I see three solutions.
    1. Continue to "train" an unwilling force
    2. Give them better equipment, encouraging them to learn
    3. Slowly withdraw our forces, sending a message that if you don't shape up and shape up soon, you'll be on your own with nothing

    Which idea is best is beyond me, but that seems like the only choices.
     
  16. Ranger14

    Ranger14 IncGamers Member

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    So we are taking a poll from one region and it means that the whole of Iraq doesn't want us there and doesn't support us. Nice jump there.

    I posted one article discussing how some youth view things. Not everyone sees things the way the negative articles show. I guess I should just read the negative articles and believe that they are the truth and their is never another side to the story. As I said, I don't buy into that. Do I think there are challenges? Absolutely! Do I think Iraq is better off without Hussein? Absolutely! Does war suck? Absolutely! People have lost lives in every war in history and there will be arguments on the justifications for many wars throughout history. Don't condescend me with the "do you know what is happening to our soldiers game". My brother is in the army and I am well aware of what is happening. I have never seen a war where lives have not been lost. What kind of dream world is anyone living in that doesn't think lives will be lost. Had Hussein stayed in power, I would believe there would have been a lot more loss of life due to his oppressive regime and his hatred toward the U.S.

    We can't change things. Whether one believes in the war or not...whether one thinks this war was justified or not, we are there...it has been done and we have to make the best of it. I guess we could just pull out and let Iraq fall flat on its face. I don't think that is what the American spirit is about. It is about helping those who are in need. I don't believe we will be there forever. Things go in cycles and it will get better, even if we do accept all the negative media we hear right now. People seem to thrive on the negative media and all the positive gets ignored or lost in the shuffle. If you choose to believe all the negative...so be it. This Marine says it best...

    http://chrenkoff.************/2005/01/good-news-from-iraq-part-19.html

    http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/may2005/a051805la3.html
     
  17. Steve_Kow

    Steve_Kow Banned

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    Ranger, I think that fellow probably has it right. The Iraqi tourism industry isn't going to generate too much revenue anytime soon . . . but neither is Iraq Hell-on-Earth.
     
  18. DaviddeJong

    DaviddeJong IncGamers Member

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    Llad, Jmervyn and Ranger...... it's really "funny" to see you guys starting off this thread: you seem to know exactly what the three of you (and probably more OTF-regulars) think of certain subjects.

    You start off by saying things as:

    and....

    I like discussing these subjects and I'm not saying you shouldn't; but there's no point trying to convince eachother, is there now? But it's cool to see you still talk these things over, respecting eachothers opinions (or so it seems).....

    As for the subject: it seems the Iraqi-US "cooperation" (if there is any!) won't work under these circumstances. I think that if I was a soldier over there protecting the peace, I'd be so disappointed in the "progress" (if there is any!) made, I think I'd just say: screw you, I won't risk my life trying to protect people that don't seem to appreciate the help we're giving.

    That's my attitude towards Iraq: I'm in favour of assisting countries around the world helping the local population with food, shelter and protection, but if a portion of the people start bombing you, I'd say get out of there and let them **** their country up for themselves.

    David.
     
  19. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    You're right, David, there's a certain degree of cemented views by all concerned. For my part, I'm pretty rabid when it comes to being pro-military (though anti-Pentagon/bureaucracy), nationalistic, and supportive of the president's preemption policy. However, don't think for a second that everyone is as cartoonish or black & white in their views as they might seem. The reason I even bother answering Ill is that he at least contemplates the crap he spouts - you may have seen me making fun of other tendencies with the "BUSH LIED CHILDREN DIED" tagline. A lot of Americans are too credulous, and swallow a variety of stories with little or no thought.

    Well, we really don't have that option, having put our foot in it already.

    What I feel completely moral in criticizing are the actions we've taken in the post-conflict reconstruction. One of the worst things done was Bremer's dissolution of the standing military - that has fuelled the insurgency immensely. Another has been the abysmal PR campaign, both internal & external, and a third has been the irrational and chaotic reconstruction effort itself. I suspect that much of the problem is due to both Clinton and Bush having shied away from 'nation-building', when in fact we are probably THE most suited nation to help build or lead others into modernity.
     
  20. DaviddeJong

    DaviddeJong IncGamers Member

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    How should the former pres.'s have acted in this "nation building" you mentioned? I think that during the Saddam period there was nothing outside countries could have done in terms of reaching the Iraqi people (maybe only through setting up radio-stations that air "free-thoughts").

    Although the US tried by aiding the southern Shiite (sp?) resistance, but that didn't really win their hearts and minds........ did it?

    David.
     

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