Re: Breaking News! Bashiok says One skill tree.
^Chorkstain,
As often, there is some info I failed to put in since I had a too-long post. But here it goes:
In a game or two, you are right. Someone using X skill is going to kill more things than someone specialized in Y skill because of the random arrangement of the monsters, the odd number of fire res spawning foes which is more or less than number of cold res spawning monsters, etc. But after 100 'throne room' runs, an average number of fire res vs cold res monsters is going to emerge. After 1000 runs, the average number of those monsters is going to become even more well defined. Ultimately, an average number will come through and that number will be equal numbers of fire res and cold res monsters. There will also be an average pattern of space the monsters occupy on the screen after a 1000 runs due to the mosnters AI programs.
Of course, the character will never kill a perfect 53 monsters per minute evey game. The best possible magic missle build might kill only 50 in one game (due to randomness of spawning and AI monster movements), but kill 56 in another. The average kills per minute over hundreds of runs is going to be the 53 though, which is the same for any active skill. Plus, the player will tire and make mistakes, human error, flukey tough mini bosses, and so on will lower his kill rate per minute. But in other games, there would be flukey easy mini bosses and fewer res to deal with, so again an average will emerge. Imo, the important thing is that no skill ever comes out on top during end game.
"With each use (or comparitively few uses) of the single-target attack, you make progress with the horde. You kill something. With area attacks, all enemies die fairly close together (temporally) which means you're stuck with all of them until you dispatch them. In conclusion, if the area attack has the same 'efficiency' by your definition, then the single-target attack is far better because you're reducing the threat to your character constantly."
I see your point here. But Blizzard could deal with this. I notice with multishot for example, the enemies get a little 'stun' when they get hit with each arrow which stops them in their tracks for just a brief time. Their advance stops, and with enough IAS, they have trouble reaching you. You have the whole hoarde to deal with, but all of them are getting slowed a bit. With the one-target attack, you are shrinking the enemy numbers, but the survivors are untouched by you yet so they are fast and you have to deal with that. Bliz would incorperate these issues. They would palytest themselves (and cheat)to get a perfect build using each skill and make sure NO skill can have the upperhand in terms of killing power.
"4. The whole point of area attacks is to kill many things quickly! That's why we use them, they should kill more foes per minute than single-target attacks. It's not unbalanced, because they suffer the drawbacks that I've mentioned above, plus they tend to come with a greater energy cost (or they can or should). They have geometric variation (straight line, splash on impact, cone, etc.) which brings limitations into account when using these abilities."
^This is where we simply disagree. Imo, if the area attacks kill more things faster, we all know that these skills are going to be favored in a few years. Why would anyone shoot themselves in the foot by chosing skills that kill slower? There are many answers, like more survivability, prefered playstyle, fun different builds, etc, but at the end of the day, most players will choose the area attacks because they net more kills. I would like to avoid this because this is how cookie cutters are born.
The drawbacks you mentioned would be factored in. Bliz would know that a player using certain melee skills must retreat to heal sometimes, and that would get factored in. He would do more damage using those dangerous skills where he gets hurt because when he retreats he is not doing any damage. Skills that let you hang back and shoot away would do lesser damage because you don't have to stop attacking as much.
Bliz could tackle all these issues. They would have to give themselves the top gear in their game testing and keep adjusting the damage on all skills until every active skill (provided the player choose the proper best passive arrangement) is equal in killing power over hundreds of end game runs.
Some skills might come out on top as being 'easier' to use, so those could very well end up being the cookie cutters. But some players enjoy easy playstyles and some enjoy more stategic playing, so many will go with whatever skills they like the best. Ultimately, the cookie cutter builds would be whichever ideal gear setup is cheaper for given skills. But all this end game gear is going to be rare anyway. You can never eliminate cookie cutters for good because of tendencies of the masses, but this method at least tries to remove the notion of 'useless' skills and 'overpowered skills' which contibute to cookie cutters.
I think you and many others want for there to be a firebolt spell that is dwarfed by a fireball spell which has more damage and area damage. But we all know what becomes of that. Firebolt is almost never specialized in, making it useless, and fireball is used by too much of the palyer base.
^Chorkstain,
As often, there is some info I failed to put in since I had a too-long post. But here it goes:
In a game or two, you are right. Someone using X skill is going to kill more things than someone specialized in Y skill because of the random arrangement of the monsters, the odd number of fire res spawning foes which is more or less than number of cold res spawning monsters, etc. But after 100 'throne room' runs, an average number of fire res vs cold res monsters is going to emerge. After 1000 runs, the average number of those monsters is going to become even more well defined. Ultimately, an average number will come through and that number will be equal numbers of fire res and cold res monsters. There will also be an average pattern of space the monsters occupy on the screen after a 1000 runs due to the mosnters AI programs.
Of course, the character will never kill a perfect 53 monsters per minute evey game. The best possible magic missle build might kill only 50 in one game (due to randomness of spawning and AI monster movements), but kill 56 in another. The average kills per minute over hundreds of runs is going to be the 53 though, which is the same for any active skill. Plus, the player will tire and make mistakes, human error, flukey tough mini bosses, and so on will lower his kill rate per minute. But in other games, there would be flukey easy mini bosses and fewer res to deal with, so again an average will emerge. Imo, the important thing is that no skill ever comes out on top during end game.
"With each use (or comparitively few uses) of the single-target attack, you make progress with the horde. You kill something. With area attacks, all enemies die fairly close together (temporally) which means you're stuck with all of them until you dispatch them. In conclusion, if the area attack has the same 'efficiency' by your definition, then the single-target attack is far better because you're reducing the threat to your character constantly."
I see your point here. But Blizzard could deal with this. I notice with multishot for example, the enemies get a little 'stun' when they get hit with each arrow which stops them in their tracks for just a brief time. Their advance stops, and with enough IAS, they have trouble reaching you. You have the whole hoarde to deal with, but all of them are getting slowed a bit. With the one-target attack, you are shrinking the enemy numbers, but the survivors are untouched by you yet so they are fast and you have to deal with that. Bliz would incorperate these issues. They would palytest themselves (and cheat)to get a perfect build using each skill and make sure NO skill can have the upperhand in terms of killing power.
"4. The whole point of area attacks is to kill many things quickly! That's why we use them, they should kill more foes per minute than single-target attacks. It's not unbalanced, because they suffer the drawbacks that I've mentioned above, plus they tend to come with a greater energy cost (or they can or should). They have geometric variation (straight line, splash on impact, cone, etc.) which brings limitations into account when using these abilities."
^This is where we simply disagree. Imo, if the area attacks kill more things faster, we all know that these skills are going to be favored in a few years. Why would anyone shoot themselves in the foot by chosing skills that kill slower? There are many answers, like more survivability, prefered playstyle, fun different builds, etc, but at the end of the day, most players will choose the area attacks because they net more kills. I would like to avoid this because this is how cookie cutters are born.
The drawbacks you mentioned would be factored in. Bliz would know that a player using certain melee skills must retreat to heal sometimes, and that would get factored in. He would do more damage using those dangerous skills where he gets hurt because when he retreats he is not doing any damage. Skills that let you hang back and shoot away would do lesser damage because you don't have to stop attacking as much.
Bliz could tackle all these issues. They would have to give themselves the top gear in their game testing and keep adjusting the damage on all skills until every active skill (provided the player choose the proper best passive arrangement) is equal in killing power over hundreds of end game runs.
Some skills might come out on top as being 'easier' to use, so those could very well end up being the cookie cutters. But some players enjoy easy playstyles and some enjoy more stategic playing, so many will go with whatever skills they like the best. Ultimately, the cookie cutter builds would be whichever ideal gear setup is cheaper for given skills. But all this end game gear is going to be rare anyway. You can never eliminate cookie cutters for good because of tendencies of the masses, but this method at least tries to remove the notion of 'useless' skills and 'overpowered skills' which contibute to cookie cutters.
I think you and many others want for there to be a firebolt spell that is dwarfed by a fireball spell which has more damage and area damage. But we all know what becomes of that. Firebolt is almost never specialized in, making it useless, and fireball is used by too much of the palyer base.
