Bowzon Help needed

ploves

Diabloii.Net Member
Bowzon Help needed

Hey all!

Ive read some of the threats and guides but still lost. I have never played a bowzon-would anyone quide me?
What i would like is a bowzon-who-is strong,hell doable,chaos runner, with a valkyre ="copy" (of myself?)AND not Faith reliable!I don't think i could ever get my hand on one. I do have a BOTD(hydra-i think) bow last night from a friend. I would like a straight answer-Strafe or multi better? By better i mean, faster/stronger killing machine? This is strictly pvm only non ladder on USEast.thanks!!!
If anyone want to whisper me feel free *Lovas
 

penco

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Back when I was a noob and didn't know what I was doing, I thought Multi was way better because it kind of looks cooler, but now I know that Strafe is generally better. If you want a pure bowazon with no elemental-type weapons, use the following skill layout:
20 strafe
5-9 multi
1 Freezing Arrow
20 Valk
1+ Decoy
1 in all the Passives
1+ Pierce (however many pts you need after +skill items to get your chance to pierce above 50 or 60%)
The rest of the points you can stick wherever you please. I wouldn't max multi because it costs too much mana, and don't bother with javelin skills.

For gear, the easiest thing to do is use M'Avina's set. Great endgame gear. It is cheap to obtain and awesome for this build. It has high level reqs, though. Use Cat's Eye amulet for IAS. Use either 2x Ravenfrost rings for the Dex and AR bonuses or use 1 Ravenfrost and 1 Dwarf Star (if you need fire absorb). Any decent boots will do. Natalya's or IK's are good. For lower levels, Witchwild String is a great bow. Socket it with 2 Shael runes. Upgrade it when you're around lvl 54 (I think). Have enough IAS gear to be around 120%.

For tactics, use Strafe as your main attack. Only use multi when the enemies are spread all over and the AI on strafe is making you spin all over. Multi can help you focus on specific packs of enemies until they die. Use freezing arrow as crowd control. A couple +cold damage small charms make the freeze last longer, so keep some. Use decoy and valk liberally. Get a NM Act 2 merc for his Might aura. Use valk and decoy liberally. This build works very smoothly. Bosses take a bit of time, but it's not a big deal, and you can even kill Physical Immunes with M'Avina's set. Make sure to have Mana Leech. Manald Heal ring is great for low levels. No mana leech = you screwed.
 

Rane-

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Mavina's is horrible Strafer end-game gear. You'd do better with a Blue Bow of Evisceration let alone something good.
 

NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

There isn't one better then the other - multi versus strafe. Though as you are going to run chaos, I'd say multi is better there, certainly if you have a strong bow. The area's are open and you often know from where the monsters are comming. Now seen that fact that you are on non ladder, botd is a good bow - windforce is assumed to be better, and harmony has much more stile points, though botd will work although some claim it to be sign of noobism certainly if you use hydra as crusader as the same damage with less req.

Anyway, a very good chaos runner is a lightning/bow hyrbid though pure bow should work aswell.

Lets have a look at a little fast guide.
skills:
one points in strafe, about 15 in multi counting in +skills. One points freeze arrow for freeze. If you end up with excess points, put them in strafe or magic arrow if you are having problems with PI. Normally, PI shouldn't be a problem. If you are having problem with diablo, put more points in guided arrow.
Get one points in all passives, decoy up to where you find it strong enough, 9 points in pierce counting in +skills. Max valkery and put points in critical - more then 17 often isn't needed - and penetrate - 80% cth.

gear is easy aswell.
helm: I'd go with giant skull for the knockback, strength, crushing blow and 2 sockets 2* 15 ias/ed for 8 fpa. Though there are other options.
amulet: atma's scarab, you need a PI solution. This ctc amp is very helpful.
armour: treachery. Is has huge ias, and other nice mods. fort is better though ladder-only, coh is possible if you really want resistance, It's up to you. Note that if you want to get 8 fpa, you need treachery.
belt: razortails to hit max pierce.
gloves: loh, ias and 300% ed to demons.
boots: war trav.
rings: raven/craft or something with fire/lightning absorb.
 

penco

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Mavina's is horrible Strafer end-game gear. You'd do better with a Blue Bow of Evisceration let alone something good.
Errm... what are you talking about? I made a Matriarch Strafer with M'Avina's set. Its bow damage isn't the best out there, but it adds massive magic damage to make up for it if you have the whole set. Plus, the set is CHEAP. Yes, you can easily surpass it with dupewords like Faith and Chains of Honor (and he said he didn't have access to Faith), but why hate on the legit builds? The M'Avina strafer is GOOD. I got through the game using it without a hitch. The +cold damage from the gloves also gives a huge boost to freeze time for your Freezing Arrows. I am trying to be helpful. Don't troll.



 

Rane-

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Firstly there was a thread 2 below this one at the time of your posting with calculations of Mav's set damage for strafe which you clearly didn't read. I'm not trolling I'm trying to squelch misinformation.

Mavina's Set is not good gear for a pure strafer. You didn't advertise it as a FA/Strafe Hybrid, or that it was 'feasible'. You claimed that it was "Great endgame gear". You didn't say it was viable with some effort, you claimed it was Great - which is simply false.

Just because you took a FA/Strafe hybrid to Mat doesn't mean squat out of context. If you played through any of Hell as multiplayer then that would've helped immensely as Mav's biggest weakness is against CI's. If you did the whole thing solo then I guarantee you that it wasn't easy and it certainly wasn't fast. Mav's killing speed of CI's with FA/Strafe is painful at best.

Lastly the set isn't even that cheap. The price of the armor and especially the helm is far more than what I'd call "cheap/easily attainable." The following build is far better strafer end game gear and is far,far cheaper.

Howltusk
Any Amy (skills would be good, stats or res or AR is fine)
Eaglehorn (Shael or Nef) or WWS (can ith/ith or ith/nef if poor)
Twitch
Any magic +min damage rings, or +ar, or +ll, or +ml (skull weapon if leech is a problem)
Any 20IAS gloves
Any belt with 24%FHR bought from vendors (or stats if you prefer)
Any boots with 20% or more R/W

That setup costs probably 1/10th of Mav's set AND it is far far far more efficient. If you run numbers you'll find it does at least double the damage on a bad day. Imagine if you used good gear. NASE's setup showed some great options for a strafer which is very helpful.

Saying "I played through Hell with Mavinas set while using some skills other than strafe and getting help for the hard parts" is vastly different to saying "Mavina's set is Great End-Game Gear for a strafer."
 

DH Amazon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Just because you took a FA/Strafe hybrid to Mat doesn't mean squat out of context. If you played through any of Hell as multiplayer then that would've helped immensely as Mav's biggest weakness is against CI's. If you did the whole thing solo then I guarantee you that it wasn't easy and it certainly wasn't fast. Mav's killing speed of CI's with FA/Strafe is painful at best.
Its bad set, but not that bad. And you can always use free slots to make it viable killer even for full games.

You can build nice strafer around Mavina set (not best, but great), but for FA build its suited much better. Even pure strafer (after strafe speed bug) looks nice, as you can now use Atmas amu.

Build around this set can clear 2-player chaos very fast, even full game chaos is possible, but little slow for my taste. Lots of poison immunes there (so poison charm is not helping here, so nature piece ring is more than godly here)
But at least Diablo is very easy to kill with this set as you can tank nicely, so it takes around 20-30s.

Soloing baalrun is nice too, with good resist you can kill all along the way, and clearing Throne is easy.

Sure it lacks psysical damage, so monster regerate faster in full games than this do damage. Try killing lister pack in full game and you see thats impossible. Or in full game pits, those bosses resummon minions faster than you can kill. Hopeless, better change gear.
But 1-poison charm, atma, nature piece ring, gore boots and that lister pack goes down just nicely, even if cold+psysical immune. And full games pits, even with lots of cold immune, are after those couple items easy place to clear.


You listed better gear, how you clear chaos/kill dia or do baal with that setup? Upped wws is nice, but with eaglehorn, resist are huge problem if doing more than pits.



 

NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

good bowazon don't need resistance.

There you go, problem solved.
 

MinionOfBoredom

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

I'm surprised no one here has mentioned Tal Rasha's helm.

10% dual leech = amazing, no matter how you look at it. Socket it with a jewel of Fervor and you're good to go.

Personally, I'd say that an upgraded Witchwild String outclasses Mavina's, by quite a margin. If you're looking for cheap, this is my recommendation:

Helm : Tal Rasha's. No question; this is the most cost effective thing by far. If you can get a Giant's Skull, by all means do it, but you'll be hard pressed to find something with better leech.

Bow: Upped Witchwild String, "ShaelWhatever". The Amp will make your damage skyrocket.

Body: Treachery. Only two things on here are really of importance: the Fade, and the IAS. While resistance isn't at all important on a good 'zon, it does make a difference in the survivability of a lower-end one. You want to ideally hit 105% IAS; this armor will help a lot.

Gloves: Laying of Hands; this is THE PvM Bowazon pair of gloves, low to high end.

Belt: Razortail; again, this is THE PvM Bowazon belt; 33% pierce is nothing to scoff at; it also gives you some nice damage and dexterity if I recall correctly. Nosferatu's Coil is good and all, but the overall damage output will suffer without the pierce.

Boots: Your call; War Travelers are good all-around boots; Gores are fun because...well, they are. I went with the Gores in the end, because they have the word "Gore" in it. Laugh all you want, but I like my Crushing Blow...and gore. =D

Rings: My personal favorite combo is two Ravenfrosts. Lots of dexterity, cold absorb, mana; what's not to like?

Ammy: Cat's Eye. The Dexterity, FR/W, and IAS are exactly what a Bowazon needs.

Your IAS with the above gear will total:

45% from Treachery
20% from Laying of Hands
20% from Cat's Eye
20% from WWS "Shael"

...giving you exactly 105%, hitting the breakpoint. You'll have a free socket in Tal's and a free socket in WWS; put whatever you want in them. This build as a glass cannon can do the CS on /players 1 with general ease.



I would like a straight answer-Strafe or multi better? By better i mean, faster/stronger killing machine?
Don't try asking for one, because none exist. They both shine in their own respective scenarios. If anything, try playing through the game and finding what you like better for yourself. :)



 

Jcakes

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Why the 105% IAS, a WWS zon is going to use strafe (to take advantage over ctc amp) and for strafe 105% IAS is no better then 56% IAS.

The breakpoints for strafe for a 0 speed bow (diamond bow) are
0% IAS 13/3
13% IAS 12/3
26% IAS 11/3
29% IAS 10/3
56% IAS 9/3
113% IAS 8/3*

*some people may be familiar with this bp being 8/2 bp for strafe however as has been proven at sites I am not allowed to link to the 2 frame strafe does not exist server side, despite what appears to be happening client side.

so IMHO the damage out put from increasing you attack speed from 56% to 113% does not add up.
 

MinionOfBoredom

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Jcakes:

Pray tell, where did you get that information?

Both Kijya's thread and the speed calculator tell me otherwise.

Concerning the Strafe serverside versus client side bug...while a 9/2 and 8/2 difference won't make any difference in Strafe, it certainly will for Multishot.
 

Jcakes

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

I don't think I am allowed to link to the website, don't even think I can mention it but I have pm's the link to you.

My point was that when using witchwild string I doubt you would use multi at all (as the ctc amp only occurs on the mid two arrows for multi as to all the arrows for strafe) I guess you might use strafe to iniate the amp then use multi but IMHO you would be better off staying at the 56% bp for 9/3 strafe or if you want the imaginary 9/2 strafe the 8x% bp (can't remember exactly what it is)
 

MinionOfBoredom

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Yes, I read all about it. There's actually a youtube video up; I'm sure that that's allowed. My last post is unclear; I meant the information concerning the breakpoints. I'm almost certain that those are incorrect. Not the info about the serverside discrepancy.

When I played my Witchwild String Strafer, I actually found multi shot to be...well, very useful.

But even so...8/3 is better than 9/3, even if by a miniscule amount. And 8 versus 9 frames makes quite a difference when not strafing.
 

Jcakes

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

Ah well the breakpoints come from Kijya's thread here is a quick repost of the relevent information:

Normal Attack
Code:
No Fanaticisicism Aura      
Frames  -10 0   5   10      
15                  0       
14              0   5       
13          0   10  15     
12      0   10  15  25     
11      10  20  30  35     
10      25  40  50  60     
9       45  65  75  90      
8       75  105 125 150     
7       145 200 240 295
Strafe
Code:
No Fanaticism Aura                          
Strafe Sequence         -10  0    5    10   
7,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4+8                  0    
7,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4+7             0    5    
6,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3+7   0    0    10   15   
6,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3+6   5    15   20   30   
5,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3+6   -    -    35   45   
5,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3+5   15   30   40   50   
5,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3+4   40   60   70   80   
4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+5   60   90   105  120  
4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+4   80   115  135  160
therefore to get the 8/2 attack (4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+4) you need 115%IAS wheras for a 9/3 you need 60% IAS

Due to the 8/2 attack only being 8/3 (server side) that 75% IAS only improves your strafe speed by 1 frame in a 10 arrow cycle (44 frames vs 45 frames for a full cycle) this is a net increase in damage of 2% (or approximately 2 dexterity) thus for a pure strafer (the way I play a wws zon the 9/3 is much better as you sacrifice too much equipment to get the 8/3.

On the other hand if you like multishot then you definately want to aim for the 8 frame attack.

EDIT: There appears to be a mistake in Kijya's tables, the table shows the 9/3 or (5,3,+4) bp for a 0 speed bow at 60% IAS, however according to the EIAS table this break point should occur at 56%IAS, my guess is that the reason for this descrepancy is because 56% IAS is unachievable (IAS tends to come in 5% alocations)

EDIT 2: I also assume the same is true for 113% from EIAS vs. 115% in the 0 speed table.
 

Kijya

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Bowzon Help needed

EDIT: There appears to be a mistake in Kijya's tables, the table shows the 9/3 or (5,3,+4) bp for a 0 speed bow at 60% IAS, however according to the EIAS table this break point should occur at 56%IAS, my guess is that the reason for this descrepancy is because 56% IAS is unachievable (IAS tends to come in 5% alocations)

EDIT 2: I also assume the same is true for 113% from EIAS vs. 115% in the 0 speed table.
Correct, only item that I can recall (atm) to possibly have an "anti" 5 instance of ias is grief, and while using that you can't use any of the skills I've listed in the tables anyway.

Rounding the numbers to practically achievable numbers allowed me to remove some of the breakpoints that you'll never hit anyway, making the tables smaller and at the same time (imo) easier to read.

No worries, the EIAS tables contain all breakpoints. You might have to use that one if, for example, you're running with a paladin friend who uses a fanaticism aura that isn't level 12-15, and then you might hit a bp that wasn't possible hit in the normal IAS tables.


Seems I've caused way more confusion by doing this then I first though I would :scratchchin:

Edit: And for reference, yeah, my tables where posted before the big strafe speed bug bang, so the strafe table will be incorrect on the /2 speeds ^^



 
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