Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Kitriara, Jun 5, 2008.

  1. Kitriara

    Kitriara IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    Assassin players:

    I am planning on taking a single-player HC Assassin all the way through to Hell Baal. While I am considering twinking my claw and armor, I am not very rich. I have a Jade Talon, but thats the best claw I have. As of now I'm playing untwinked.

    I was considering going C/C and using the standard Tiger Strike - Dragon Tail combo, however I am not sure whether to use BoS or Fade. It seems like in hell, the 20% reduction in damage (I also recently found a Shaftstop so I could really cut down my damage) and additional resists would really come in handy. However, at the same time, after looking at the IAS tables I am concerned that without BoS I am going to be a sloooow attacker, and that in itself could mean death.

    Any advice from someone who has gone through with very, very average gear would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Burn-X

    Burn-X IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    I had the similar issued with my C/C build before. I wanted to invest heavily in Fade, but was advice against it as BoS is a better choice.

    However seeing that you are playing HC, I think Fade is a good skill for you in put points into especially when you have no idea when your next good gear is going to come. Even though Fade and BoS don't work together, it doesn't mean you can't get both skills and use whichever one is best suited for the situation at hand.
     
  3. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    8,513
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    At least 1 point in fade for sure, unless you want really quick death with souls. You can always keep 2x shadow claws for an easy +6, so you don't need all that many points either way.
     
  4. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,241
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    I nearly always end up running Fade in Hell, and rely on fast base claws and IAS on equipment. (HC untwinked all the way, baby.)

    One thing to keep in mind about your build is that while the breakpoints for BoSless Dtail will look horrible, the one that's more important is Tiger, because you'll usually be doing multiple hits with it for ever kick. And it's relatively easy to get to max. Anyway, my point is that a slower Dtail is bearable, but try to get Tiger near or at 7 frames.

    Another option is to go with a shield, which can free up your resists enough to go BoS, especially if you go with a resist armor. Personally, I detest shields on my Assassins though.
     
  5. sangfagel

    sangfagel IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,307
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    "HC untwinked". uh... that´s what I do ;) ...

    I go 1 point Fade, 1 point BoS and 75% F/L resist (more if I get a chance). Notice that these skills developes with diminishing returns. Assuming +7 to all skills you get Attack Speed Bonus +44% for first hard point in BoS and just 8% more for next 12 hard points.

    In untwinked game Treachery is actually an serious option - even for assa. Nevertheless Slvl 8-9 Fade (after + skill points) is allways a good thing to have for entering areas with a risk for massive elemental dmg - especially if a boss with convi is lurking about. Otherwise you can wait for Fade to proc or just change to Lionheart and BoS.

    In HC safety is most important. The second most important thing is... safety and the third is... well I think You got it allready :thumbup: So you have not use just one of these skills but you must vary depending on situation.
     
  6. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    You pretty much have to use BoS if you use dclaw, dtail or dflight, since these finishing moves requires alot of IAS, unless you have fanaticm aura already from, for example Beast. However, dtalon does not require as much IAS as the other finishing moves. You can reach 8/3 breakpoint with only 30 IAS from equipments when using Stormlash (which IMHO is the best weapon for dtalon kicks). The only time you will have problem with IAS when using fade, is when you face monsters with freezing aura, or if you're cursed by for example Baal with decrepify.

    With BoS you're pretty much forced to use Stormshield or BerBer CoA, since they have such a great %DR and let's you have more choices for your other equipment. Another problem is resistance to all so alot of equipments need to satisfy these needs, which allow you to have less of other good stuff.

    No, I think my build with a teleporting assa using fade, is pretty good. She managed to kill all ubers by herself with 2 chars in game, without much trouble. I've never faced the ubers before, so I think I didn't play Tristram in an optimal way, but she made it anyway pretty comfortably. By the way, corpse explosion DID work in (Uber)Tristram.

    So in summary, Fade gives you more choices for equipment, while BoS allows you to have fastest attack without fanatiscm. Running faster is fun, but not extremely useful IMO.


     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  7. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    What does HC untwinkled mean by the way?
     
  8. theBanger

    theBanger IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    HC means Hard Core ( the game mode where death is final)
    Untwinked means playing only with the gear you find ( no muling items to your character)
    I think 1 point into both BoS and fade should be plenty till you get to a latter part of the game, say late nightmare, at which point you can make a better decision based on the gear you have. Be aware of the build your using and how you want to spend your skill points.
     
  9. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,241
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    I've got to respectfully disagree with that assessment, though the case for DClaw is fairly strong.

    Dflight is easy--its speed is locked.

    Dtail isn't bound to BoS for a couple of reasons. First off, it's not dependent on weapon damage, so your free to use the fastest WSM claws. Second, it's usually used in conjunction with a few charges of Tiger, which is very easy to get to max. With a Tigerless variant though, BoS and max speed is harder to give up, though even there it's slightly less important than normal because of its area-kb and massive damage.

    Dclaw is the hardest to do without BoS. They'd be settling for a slower attack rate and probably less physical damage on their claws, so trading dps for resists. However I wouldn't think somebody was crazy for going that way in HC, especially if they were killing more through elemental damage or effects.

    Untwinked...well, I'm not sure, since it all depends on drops. I think BoS would usually be somewhat easier (Good sources of Resists are just a lot more common than good sources of IAS) but DC builds are pretty unfriendly to untwink regardless.

    All of this is aside from Fana.



     
  10. Indecisive

    Indecisive IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Re: BoS or Fade for HC untwinked?

    You're right about Dflight of course. When it comes to dtail, I think it would be bad to not take advantage of TS, since the ED% from Dtail is calculated after all other damage calculations have been done. So the difference in damage with and without Tigerstrike is pretty huge.

    The EIAS for Dragon Tail looks like this:
    Code:
    EIAS	Fpa	EIAS	Fpa
    -30	43	-7	24
    -29	42	-5	23
    -28	41	-3	22
    -27	39	0	21
    -26	38	3	20
    -25	37	6	19
    -24	36	9	18
    -23	35	13	17
    -22	34	17	16
    -21	33	22	15
    -20	32	27	14
    -19	31	33	13
    -17	30	40	12
    -16	29	49	11
    -15	28	59	10
    -13	27	71	9
    -11	26	85	8
    -10	25	103	7
    

    Here's the BoS/IAS table for 7 frame Dtail Kicks:
    Code:
    BoS Level               		WSM																	
    		-60	-50	-45	-40	-35	-30	-25	-20	-15	-10	-5	0	5	10	15	20	25	30
    	0	68	95	113	133	157	187	223	270	330	414	535	728     1080	1938	7080	n/a	n/a	n/a
    	1	27	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152	180	215	259	317     395	507	680	988	1680
    	2	19	34	42	52	63	75	89	105	125	147	174	208	250     304	377	480	638	909
    	3	14	27	35	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152	180	215	259	317	395	507	680
    	4	10	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138	163	194	232     280	345	434	566
    	5	7	19	26	34	42	52	63	75	89	105	125	147	174	208     250	304	377	480
    	6	5	16	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138	163	194     232	280	345	434
    	7	3	14	20	27	35	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152	180     215	259	317	395
    	8	2	13	19	26	34	42	52	63	75	89	105	125	147	174     208	250	304	377
    	9	0	10	16	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138	163	194	232	280	345
    	10	0	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157	187	223	270	330
    	11	0	8	14	20	27	35	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152	180	215	259	317
    	12	0	7	13	19	26	34	42	52	63	75	89	105	125	147	174	208	250	304
    	13	0	6	11	18	24	32	40	50	60	72	86	102	120	142	168	200	240	292
    	14	0	5	10	16	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138	163     194	232	280
    	15	0	4	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157     187	223	270
    	16	0	3	8	14	20	27	35	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152     180	215	259
    	17	0	3	8	14	20	27	35	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152     180	215	259
    	18	0	3	8	14	20	27	35	44	54	65	78	92	109	129	152     180	215	259
    	19	0	2	7	13	19	26	34	42	52	63	75	89	105	125	147     174	208	250
    	20	0	2	7	13	19	26	34	42	52	63	75	89	105	125	147     174	208	250
    	21	0	0	6	11	18	24	32	40	50	60	72	86	102	120	142     168	200	240
    	22	0	0	6	11	18	24	32	40	50	60	72	86	102	120	142     168	200	240
    	23	0	0	5	10	16	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138     163	194	232
    	24	0	0	5	10	16	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138     163	194	232
    	25	0	0	5	10	16	23	30	39	48	58	70	83	99	117	138     163	194	232
    	26	0	0	4	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157	187	223
    	27	0	0	4	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157	187	223
    	28	0	0	4	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157	187	223
    	29	0	0	4	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157	187	223
    	30	0	0	4	9	15	22	29	37	46	56	68	80	95	113	133	157	187	223
    
    Well, getting the fastest kick will not be easy.
    Let's look at -30 WSM claw.

    7 fpa: 187 IAS needed
    8 fpa: 102 IAS needed
    9 fpa: 63 IAS needed <-- winner
    10 fpa: 39 IAS needed <-- winner

    Bear in mind that 42 IAS is needed for fastest trap laying (9 fpa) with a -30 claw, and 60 IAS is needed for fastest Tigerstrike chargeup (7 fpa). If you're OK with 8 fpa Tigerstrike chargeup, you only need 26 IAS.

    So in conclusion, with a -30 WSM claw and 63 IAS from equipment, you're only 2 fpa from fastest attack when you chargeup with TS and finish with Dtail and without BoS or Fana.

    Yeah I guess Fade and Dtail is working after all.
     

Share This Page