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Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BobCox2, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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  2. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    Seems accurate enough. Woodward is quite a liberal, but unlike others he doesn't let his bias warp his reportage.

    Of particular note is that the positions taken are almost exclusively through the lens of Vietnam (almost 40 years ago), and the resulting intent of the Executive is retreat and defeat with the most expedient time-line possible.
     
  3. Darkflight

    Darkflight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    1. Seems plausible.

    2. It seems like Obama doesn't care about how to fix the situation and only wants to get out of there ASAP. Maybe he needs the money to fund healthcare or something. :coffee:
     
  4. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    1. I believe this reporting is true based on Woodward's journalistic integrity.

    2. While I disagree with Obama's ideas about how to handle Afghanistan, I admire his insistence that those who answer to him figure out the best way to make those ideas happen.
     
  5. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    It's embarassing even for outsiders to see how the people of the US allow people in their own country to humiliate and insult their president in such a manner, not just in this case. Even if you oppose his politics, how could you allow that to happen? He's still your president! Isn't there any loyalty to the leader of your country, in spite of differences?

    Everything seems to be tried to be blown up into a scandal, so certain people can feed their narcisism, greed, cruelty and power lust openly. Don't you despise people who act in that manner? It's already bad enough that people get used to it enough to regard it as normal, but sometimes I'm under the impression that this behaviour is actually admired. That would be unthinkable here, at least to that extent.

    The last few US presidents appeared like tragic figures in the world, the targets of scorn and derision. That's not the fault of the world or of your presidents (well, mostly), but IMO mainly of the people of the US (as a whole), for allowing it to happen like that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  6. trashX

    trashX IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    I'd say that's the fault of the media, that blows absolutely everything out of proportion whenever they feel like it could get them a few more viewers
     
  7. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    Remind us again about your stance regarding such noble loyalty a few years back? Oh. Right.

    Look, it's documented fact that the Euros have massive hard-ons for Dear Leader. IIRC ex-President Carter, the bestest ex-Pres EVAH (in his own opinion) was always popular in Europe, mostly because you guys love it if we're run by a poltroon. Interestingly enough, I heard the opinion floated that it's because if he goes up in flames and we actually get someone moderately conservative who rescinds the current American welfare state, the European nanny state system is toast because all the wealth will flee (as opposed to only some of it).
    Wait, I thought you <supported> Dear Leader, and now you say we should despise him?
    Oh, I think the European media did a perfectly serviceable job pouring feces on Bush for over 8 years; they needed no assistance from the American people (many of which didn't).

    You remind me of the fascist American Left who now scream disgust and scorn about those questioning Dear Leader's noble motivations, having spent over 8 years in a coordinated, documented effort to sabotage America's war effort for political gain. They didn't even wait until Ground Zero stopped smoking before they were trying to figure out how to use the attack against Bush. But now we're to rally mindlessly behind our Soviet god-hero? Gib brek pls.



     
  8. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    I'm not talking about people from Europe, but about people from the US. Please read my posting again. There's a difference between people from other countries doing that and people from the own country. The one are not obliged to be loyal, unlike the others.

    I didn't mean unconditional support with loyalty. It'sd not the subjects of the debates, but their extent and tone *in your own country* causes damage to the US all over the world. It makes fools out of your presidents. It happened to Bush and to Clinton and it's about to happen to Obama as well.

    You must confuse me with some Obama supporter, I'm not one of them. I don't like him, just as I didn't like Bush. BTW, my opinion about German parties and politicians isn't any better. We somehow have to get along with them, however, it seems that people turn into that when they become politicians.

    I'm so sorry that you don't have a nanny state, but it seems you don't want one anyway. We don't have socialism stickers on everything which is given to the needy by the state, but that's not the topic here. You live your life, I live mine, let's keep it like that.
     
  9. Amra

    Amra IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    It's not really news. The strategy has been a bit confusing for years. The debate over troop levels is well known.


    Are you speaking specifically of the book? Truth is an absolute defense. Assuming the book is true, how is that humiliating or insulting? If there was fierce debate among his inner circle about how to proceed, are you saying that is humiliating?

    Allow? We have something called Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech.

    Of course there is loyalty. But it's a two-way street. The freedom to write and speak your thoughts is fundamental to the USA. People can choose to react how they want. Do you recall the Dixie Chicks incident several years back?

    It seems clear you are not a student of history. The climate is fairly mild now - or at least not any worse - then times in the past. From the earliest days in the USA, politics have been an ugly affair. Yes, certain people are despised for things. They still have a right to speak their mind. Or should we bring back the Alien and Sedition Acts? Better yet, let us go back to dueling with pistols (as our former first Secretary of the Treasury was killed)!

    Well, we (in the USA) hear a lot about the leaders of other countries as well being criticized. I don't think the "people of the US" are the only ones who express their thoughts.



     
  10. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    As said, it's not about the facts, but about the tone with which they are brought up.

    With "allow" I didn't mean any legal actions, that probably was a poor choice of words. It's just that people seems to be fine with others being that rude, that's something which disturbs me a bit. If it was worse in the past, it doesn't mean that it's OK now.
     
  11. Amra

    Amra IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    Fair enough. All I know about the book is the couple articles I saw. I can't claim to really understand it's tone. Certainly the use of the phrases "Obama battles" and the "Obama's Wars" could be judged to be inflammatory or picked to sell books.

    I agree. I am all for civil discourse.

    It's a case of the rude people getting more attention.

    Agree with that too. I am just pointing out that it's basically the way it's always been and I don't see it changing. Call it human nature if you want. Political organizations and newspapers (and websites now) have always picked sides based on biased support rather than facts. Such people resort to dirty tactics.

    I was not advocating we go back to dueling. However, that may be more interesting than some of the junk tv that is on.



     
  12. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    I agree that my point wasn't brought up well enough at first...

    ... and then jmervyn came up with his anti-European tirades, confusing me with some brainless Europeans and trying to change my topic into one which is more to his liking.
     
  13. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    This is the claim I'm finding fault with. The Democrat party and the American Left, cheered on by your Euro socialists, claimed with shrill voices that dissent was the greatest form of patriotism as they lied, slandered, and libeled themselves silly for eight years, but now you're (and they're) claiming that we ought to display loyalty? No way does this have any legitimacy, no matter how non-partisan you fancy yourself being.
    The fact that you're complaining about tone should be a mental warning bell. Unlike the European tradition of royalty, or the Socialist "tradition" of personality cult, the American President is supposed to be a leader among peers, *NOT* what the Left would portray Obama as.

    If anything, the attacks on Bush which weren't dishonest <were> a healthy thing, but Bush never made a very good claimant to the title of "elitist". Bush Sr. was a life-long bureaucrat and politico, and there was definitely power in the blue blood, but he didn't hold a candle to the Kennedy or Clinton clan. The difference between your perception and America is that your nation (like other European nations) has a class system which is still very much alive despite any popular trends to the contrary.

    As a sidebar, I had no idea that the lingual concepts of "High German" and "Low German" had any meaning today, but it's far more of a relevant issue than the tendency of people from Louisiana to speak a local jargon.
    You forget, I'm not anti-European, just anti-European-Left. As for your brains or lack thereof, I'll refrain from comment.



     
  14. Amra

    Amra IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    I did not read his post. For no other reason than lack of time and I did not want to distract my thoughts.

    There is much validity to this point. Without getting personal and speaking about the larger anti-Bush crowd, there was a lot of actions that could be labeled as not loyal. Some examples coming to mind are "Bush Lied, Children Died" repeated endlessly and usually without facts, "President Bush hates black people" (again, without facts), the endless cartoons of him, the skits (Saturday Night Live anyone?), the jokes about him almost choking on a pretzel. I could go on. Again, I support free speech.

    I would like to point out that a positive note: I've not seen Obama's family attacked or treated poorly. The press seems to be largely keeping away from his children.

    Agreed.



     
  15. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    Jmervyn, I'm not claiming more respect for the US president, I'm just taking note of what I regard as a lack of it. I never talked about Europeans, that was only you. I agree that there's much false antipathy and false enthusaism towards the two presidents in Europe, as well as in the US. Please don't put me into the same basket with them.

    Oh, and please don't ever make comments about may "brains or lack thereof" or make any comment like that again. Maybe you are used to making these kinds of insults. I'm not and I won't change with respect to that. Thank you.
     
  16. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    Allow? I presume you mean "allow without reproach or other societal pressures"?



     
  17. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    You are right, I was unclear. I already clarified it above, however ;)
     
  18. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    With that out of the way: Why should I show Obama any respect?

    He certainly hasn't done anything worthy of respect (in fact I would go so far as to say he has shown me tremendous disrespect by assuming that I'm too stupid to manage my own affairs, and that he can do better).
     
  19. jimmyboy

    jimmyboy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    I think it's because we have an egalitarian society. Most of use looks at our president as an elected politician rather than a glorious leader. That glorious view is usually seen by non-Americans who saw the American president as leader of the free world battling the evil Soviet Empire.

    To us, our presidents are ordinary.



     
  20. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bob Wordward's Obama's War.

    It *was* worse in the past, and it in not OK now.
    The difference is the instant, worldwide coverage that is available now. The requirement to derive a profit from reporting news has taken news reporting and caused it to become more sensational and far less objective.



     

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