Blizzard's Mess

Parsnips

Diabloii.Net Member
hmmm, more of a list that illustrates what the problems are and leaving the resolution up to blizzard? I agree with this I just want everyones views to be heard and for them to know that it is important.

What does everyone think about that, especially people playing classic and SP, I would like to focus on the problems there as well. Because what I might see happen is that Blizzard will focus primarily on xpac and ladder. hmmm, do you guys see any way around this while also making the list short but sweet?
 

waflob

Diabloii.Net Member
Maybe I didn't express myself too well.
Most of the items I considered omitting were things like new patches, new runewords, changing the rune drop ratios and that sort of thing.

These, while no doubt interesting in themselves, will require a lot of work for Blizzard and still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of cheats and hackers ruining bnet for everyone else.

As for illustrating the problem and leaving it up to Blizzard, well ... ultimately they will have to provide the solution. When talking to Blizzard about this, I try really hard not to come across as a whiner who just moans on about the current state of the system. Not that I think you are !! I try to suggest solutions that may help, but, as we all know, these are highly speculative. We know nothing about the inner workings and can only imagine what it might take to implement the suggestions.

As an example, I suggested that in order to combat bots, they should have one of those 'enter the characters you see' type dialogs when joining or creating a game. My intuition tells me that this should be fairly straight forward to implement, without involving major changes to anything else. I might be completely wrong. I would be prepared to put up with this minor inconvenience, knowing that it's keeping the bots out.

The usual tone I try to take (at least initially) is to point out that their whole reputation is at stake. Cheaters and hackers are ruining bnet for everyone, including them (Blizzard). Sort of trying to encourage them to take back bnet for themselves. If they think that I will get fed up with the state of bnet and then buy another of their 'pay 2 play' games, they are highly mistaken. If they can't sort out this and don't care about one section of their customers, why should I trust them at all. Obviously, this tactic has not gotten me very far, but I think a non-confrontational approach will work better.

DelBoy
 

Matt

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
edit: Hiya Matt! I send you a PM, but you never PM-ed me back. Does this mean our affair is over?
;)
Hey Barry! My PMs dont work on this forum, never have. It tells me I have none in any of the folders and that it's empty, but wont let me send or receive PMs :scratch:

Copy/paste the PM and send it to me at [email protected] if you'd like, I'll get it there.

Cheers

Matt



 

Stompwampa

Diabloii.Net Member
When I'm paying a monthly fee to play this game, I'll expect support for it. Until then, I'm just leeching off of Blizzards server space, eating up their bandwidth, and enjoying a free service that has been around for almost a decade.
Blizzard owes the players NOTHING. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
I'm not going to be as eloquent as Orphan, but everything he has said is 100% spot on.
I find this entire thread very sad. You people need to get a life. Read a book, play outside. Do something.
 

AzaZaz

Diabloii.Net Member
When I'm paying a monthly fee to play this game, I'll expect support for it. Until then, I'm just leeching off of Blizzards server space, eating up their bandwidth, and enjoying a free service that has been around for almost a decade.
Blizzard owes the players NOTHING. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
I'm not going to be as eloquent as Orphan, but everything he has said is 100% spot on.
I find this entire thread very sad. You people need to get a life. Read a book, play outside. Do something.

lol "play outside"


I stopped "playing outside" 12 years ago



 

Tai.

Diabloii.Net Member
Aaron, if you "go out" and everything goes well and you meet the right person, you can get to "play outside" so to me it's all semantics.

Cheers
-Tai
 

Stompwampa

Diabloii.Net Member
lol don't be...."playing outside" is reserved for youngins for which I haven't been for quite some time.


edit: Which sparks the debate, at which age does Playing Outside become Going Out
Isn't playing golf or baseball or frisbee considered playing outside?


Semantics it is... :wink:



 

AzaZaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Aaron, if you "go out" and everything goes well and you meet the right person, you can get to "play outside" so to me it's all semantics.

Cheers
-Tai
Leave it up to Tai to put it in perspective :)


Anyways, So far OT now it's ridiculous.



BAN HACKERS!



 

Rekoc

Diabloii.Net Member
/agreed. Sorry trish, I see what you want, but most people are just not for it anymore and turn a respective thread around into a lets all have our personal opinions about something thats doesnt support the thread just so we can get our post count up even higher so our e-peen grows. I will come back to these forums once the people grow up, as I see it its all either us old skoolers or 11 year olds.
 

FrankWest

Diabloii.Net Member
and turn a respective thread around into a lets all have our personal opinions about something
It's a shame when opposing viewpoints presented by members who have been contributing to these forums for years in a respectful and well-spoken manner (thanks Orphan) ruin the flow and tempo of a rallying cry to inundate a major game company with hundreds of spam e-mails. Ruins the "old skool" credibility of an "old skool" temper tantrum every time. :cry: < /sarcasm >



 

Barrynor

Banned
foudn this on extreme gamerz, its from before DII. Read it and ehm, well, i suppose you could weep, but that's pointless...
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There has been a lot of talk within the community regarding multiplayer enhancements in Diablo II. Most of the discussions have revolved around the player killing controversy, and although the "discussion" has gone on for some time now, nothing has been decided. Blizzard has definitely been thinking about the topic, and the community of dedicated followers who want something to be done, and there is some talk of a dueling arena where people can take out their dueling pleasures without annoying those who do not which to take part in it. But still, there are many people out there who have different opinions on the topic of Player Killing. Some like it. Some hate it. Some think it's out of control - others think it's very much in control. We've asked Blizzard about the player killing issue several times, and the following is a quote from the webmaster / Blizzard chat hat took place in November of 1998:



ScottC: Will there be PKing in Diablo II?
Diablo_II_Team: Yes, but we will empower the game creator to regulate aspects of multiplayer



That answer had been very confusing for some time, as those "aspects" were left undefined. The community was in arms with what aspects Blizzard was intending on regulating. Fortunately, I had the opportunity to ask Bill Roper to clarify that statement. The following was his response, which should make their future plans very clear:



We know that PKing is a hot topic of discussion within the community, and you can be assured that it remains on our "hot list" as well. What the developers were trying to get across was that there will be different templates available to players creating games. Some of these templates could be more focused on PKing (i.e. Arena) while others focus more on co-operation (i.e. Quest). It is impossible at this time to be specific as to what these different aspects are since play-balance is so integral to all of our decisions, but as we get closer to the product's release we will be able to tell you what the game creator will be able to regulate.

Some 5 months after Bill spoke those words, it seems rather clear what Blizzards player killer plans will be. To start with, blizzard has incorporated a new player status system into the game. Every player has a relationship to another player in the game. He can be neutral; a state which should feel familiar to anybody similar with Diablo, with one exception: it will be impossible to target another player with a spell while one is neutral. Instead, when a player targets another player with a projectile spell, the spell will instead, target a near by monster. In order for a player to successfully attack another player, he must change his status to hostile. Hostile players can attack and destroy whatever they wish, which means that a spell which targets another player, will hit and harm that other player so long as the caster remains hostile towards the recipient. Whenever one player turns hostile, all the other players automatically turn hostile towards him. Blizzard hopes that this change will help warn players ahead of time what a players true goals are, and hopefully help relieve the player killing dilemma.

There is a third state of diplomacy which players can chose, and that is player friendly. Friendly players are treated as a party system would treat them. They split experience points between themselves, and can see each others world maps. This system is used to try and help encourage players to be more friendly and cooperative towards each other, as parties will inevitably be more efficient and productive when they work together.

Perhaps the biggest improvement in multiplayer games, will be the elimination cheating. Blizzard has gotten nothing but bad criticism for their faults in security as far as Diablo goes. Any Diablo veteran knows the streets of Battle.net were absolutely littered with cheats and hacks that made for too many dupe loving players, which ruined the entire experience for many players. Since then, Blizzard has done their best to stop the cheating, but has done so in vein. The problem is that Diablo was never designed with security in mind from the very beginning, an although they can release patch after patch until they can't patch it any more, it can never be solved completely. Blizzard has since vowed to solve the cheating problem for the sequel, and has now designed Diablo II from the ground up to stop cheaters from ruining the experience for others. For security reasons, Blizzard will not release any information as to how they plan on stopping the problem, however, we can tell you that it will definitely be based upon a client / server model (meaning that all traffic between players is monitored on Battle.nets servers to ensure authenticity). Blizzard is also implementing server side character storage, which lets them make sure that save game data cannot be altered by a connecting user. Players can store characters on their hard drives for play over Lan's and modems, but these characters will be saved in a different format than battle.net characters (meaning that they are not interchangeable). While this is a good feature considering some people won't want to play over battle.net, one must remember that a players data cannot be monitored off of Battle.net servers. In other words, it is possible that external trainers and hacks will be used to cheat over Lans and modem play.

As technology has gotten better in the past several years, Diablo II will now allow for up to eight players on Battle.net. Blizzard stated that there was no practical reasoning for not allowing so many players in the first game, and so doubling the amount of players in the sequel shouldn't be a big issue. Skeptics are worried that eight players will be too much for the system to handle, since four was considerably plagued with lag issues. However, for LAN games, or for players with fast ISP's, eight shouldn't be much of a problem. Blizzard says the number will depend on "Whats fun", rather than what they can physically accomplish. Bill Roper has told us several times that there was no practical reason why they didn't allow more players in the first game, but that they didn't because gamers often split into separate parties instead of staying together when things got that large. But Diablo II will be much larger than the first, and so the assumption and prediction is that more players will make for a better over all experience.

Some other improvements will allow for an easy item trading system, so that bartering will be much easier than before. Players can now trade items without actually going into a game, right over the battle.net interface. There will also be some type of built in clan support, to enforce the community aspect that Blizzard wants to endorse. Players can spend money to buy a guild hall: a virtual house on battle.net that serves as a center for all guild activities. Players can leave items there for their fellow teammates, and maybe even gold. Guilds will become much more integrated with the society of on line play, something which many community members are looking forward to seeing. The person who purchases the guild house from the NPC will be designated as the guild master and will have control over the guild house. This includes the power to to set hall passwords, compile lists of guild members, and access funds donated to the guild. The simplest way to put it, is that guild masters will be just that - the master of the guild, and the supreme leader and decision maker for the rest of the clan. Guild halls can also be used to store items and act as a permanent game where one can interact with their clannies. Blizzard will also support guilds by allowing them to chose a unique color scheme when registering and also automatically adding the guild acronym to the battle.net names of its registered members. Of course, guild halls will not be cheap. Several players will have to pool their money together before they can by themselves a guild hall - a feature which should help reduce the number of guild halls the internet will have to deal with.

There will also be a dueling arena designed specifically for you player killers out there, which will be a great place to test your abilities of fighting real live human players. There is no word yet on how the gameplay of this arena will be done, but speculation says it will include plenty of team play options. World wide player rankings are a possibility, but not confirmed at this point. As always, check the news page for more information as it arrives.

Perhaps one of the key features that will be added to Diablo 2 that its predecessor sorely lacked is a multiplayer save game feature. This allows for someone to play more linearly through the storyline as well as save a game with vital information (such as their corpse) so that they can come back to it later and hopefully salvage themself with the help of some friends. Though there may be some methods of abusing this. I trust Blizzard to create a quality product that will ensure game integrity such as serverside save games. Nonetheless, this is still a very important new feature in Diablo 2.



--------------------------------

:rolleyes: we all know how the story ended...
 

Parsnips

Diabloii.Net Member
wow, thanks for posting that.
I feel that blizzard had a lot of good original ideas there. I feel the game may have had a different approach on the problems we have as of now. They seem to me to be some of the major things they should have focused on instead on leaving out of the game entirely. For example, if people were paying for these "guild halls" then their wouldn't be the argument that Dii no longer makes them money. Kind of a huge oversight on Blizzard to not do this, the profit margins could have been quite large imo.

The dueling arenas was a good idea (and keep in mind I pk and duel as well), it was a compromise that probably would have suited everyone. The world rankings - GREAT IDEA!! That would have made the competition very intense. Also, I feel that it might have been easier for Blizzard to keep a better track on dueling hacks (TPPK, triggers ect ect) if it was sanctioned to specific "arena" instead of the entire scope of b.net. If you don't want to be pk'ed then you don't have to be, and if you like to duel, you could duel amongst some of the best.

I realize if you put yourself into blizzards shoes the future problems of a game are hard to see. For example, the technology for hacks in 1998 and the technology now can't even compare. However, a part of me feels that Blizzard did not put all the attention into DII as they should have, the guild halls, that's just revenue for blizzard, why pass that up? Also, the dueling arena, nothing close to that was even produced. Seeing as the game was late , they offered to omit such details. I'm wondering how much time passed between the time Blizzard made these statements to the release or DII. Were they working on these features and they just didn't have time to put it out? If so, why not put them in the 1-2 patches released? Was it because Blizzard became preoccupied with other projects by then and just offered a quick fix to their consumers? If this is so, do they give us as a mass little credit to figure all this out and disregard the repeat business that 56+ thousand players can bring to the company? I may be overshooting this but it just makes me think. I know this is old news, but we're looking at the games entire history.
 

Orphan

Diabloii.Net Member
For example, if people were paying for these "guild halls" then their wouldn't be the argument that Dii no longer makes them money. Kind of a huge oversight on Blizzard to not do this, the profit margins could have been quite large imo.

...

However, a part of me feels that Blizzard did not put all the attention into DII as they should have, the guild halls, that's just revenue for blizzard, why pass that up?
I think you misunderstand what the whole guild halls and arena games actually were going to be. When purchasing a guild hall, the player would have spent in-game gold, not actual real-life money. This would not have been a cash cow for Blizzard.

Blizzard indicated why those two particular features would not be in the D2 game during a press release in March 2000, and entailed:

Blizzard said:
First, we recently made a decision that we believe we need to share with you prior to the beta beginning. Guilds will not be in the Beta, nor in the final shipping version of Diablo II. During development it became clear that making Guilds bullet-proof, balanced, and completely secure would delay shipping Diablo II. Fundamental, major changes to the Diablo II/battle.net client/server architecture would be required. Testing and all-important balancing would make our fans wait even longer. In the interests of getting the game to our fans -- we had to decide to drop Guilds. Rest assured that we are exploring ways of adding Guilds after Diablo II ships
Essentially, this means that either the fans had to wait longer for the release, or get the game without guilds or arena's. I think they made the right choice. Likewise, to quote an article on Guild Halls on Dii.net:

Guilds are not going to be added in any patch, since as Blizzard says, they need to be extensively tested and balanced and would require fundamental, major changes to Battle.net and Diablo II. However, hopes for them being included in the future Diablo II expansion pack were high. Unfortunately, as confirmed at this year's ECTS, they will not be included because the programming involved would severely push back the release of the X-Pack. The scale of such a feature would warrant a pack in its own right, although such a pack has not been mentioned by Blizzard
Introducing guilds would have required extensive work by the developers, and would have essentially been the equivilent to another expansion. I stand by my statement that it's clear you guys do not quite comprehend the scope of what it is you are asking. Too many people are saying "I want this, I want this", and not enough people asking "What work does this entail? Is this more difficult that I think it is?".

It's unfortunate that we didn't get a chance to experience it, but as usual everything doesn't go according to plans. This would probably be one of the reasons why Blizzard has become alot more tight-lipped about what features and plans they have for newer games.

With regards to Arena's, here's a quote from Dii.net's visit to Blizzard North:

The Arena would have taken much more time to create, to develop the tile sets and programme the mechanics of it, to set up the ladders, to balance for PvP play, etc. And we all agree that Diablo II has taken just about long enough already. There is still the possibility that Blizzard North will add it in later, in a future product.
Now, remember that Blizzard North is no longer around. Diablo 2 was released in 2000. It's expansion was released in 2001. Several key employees left Blizzard north in June 2003, and Blizzard officially closed it down in 2005. Before this however, two unannounced games were in production, with one being forced to be cancelled as a result.

It's unlikely Blizzard North had time to develop these features, but a significant amount of people raised their concerns about this subject when the game was released, and nothing came as a result. It's unlikely anything will actually happen these days but it's not impossible.

Some of you might not be aware but patch 1.15 was released for Starcraft on May 2007 which introduced leagues (http://www.battle.net/info/patch.shtml). What does this mean for Diablo 2? Like I said above (or it might have been a different thread) that Patch 1.10 and 1.11 were released in two year intervals. It has not been two years since the release of patch 1.11 and so I don't think it's time to begin demanding a patch this early (2 years will be up around August this year). It's also a common theory that the reason Blizzard hasn't reset ladder yet is because they're waiting for the next patch. Blizzard -might- be releasing an arena type function with the next D2 patch. I doubt they'll ever release any guild halls type function though.

If so, why not put them in the 1-2 patches released? Was it because Blizzard became preoccupied with other projects by then and just offered a quick fix to their consumers? If this is so, do they give us as a mass little credit to figure all this out and disregard the repeat business that 56+ thousand players can bring to the company? I may be overshooting this but it just makes me think. I know this is old news, but we're looking at the games entire history.
Overshooting is probably correct. As stated above, the guild halls would have virtually required another expansion, and therefore could not have been in any of the patches released. The patches they've released for us so far mainly contain content that was already in the game, just unactivated. It's easy to add in new runewords, uniques, monsters, etc, but it gets more difficult to add in features such as guild halls and arenas. These two things in particular would have required alterations to the battle.net framework and not just the Diablo 2 game.

Also just to re-iterate what I said above, Blizzard north had released the expansion in 2001 before several employees left in 2003. They were working on two other games during this time (probably even D3) and eventually closed down in 2005. Now that Blizzard North is no longer around it's going to be increasingly unlikely that we'll get either of the features. Due to these obviously unforseen circumstances, it's unlikely this could have been avoided. In a perfect world, Blizzard North wouldn't have closed down, but this is not a perfect world.

Edit: I also find the request for easier breakpoint modifications amusing as well, but I won't go into that.



 

waflob

Diabloii.Net Member
hee hee.
That is a great posting from Barranor. I hadn't seen that before. Sounds like a great game - I've never played WoW, but it sounds more like that than D2.

@parsnips - I'll reply to the PM tomorrow

DelBoy
 

Kretschmer

Diabloii.Net Member
Blizzard is very, very unlikely to do anything at this point. I'd love a patch that added all spells to the anti-TPPK list as much as anyone, but Diablo2 is an old, old game.

It's a shame. What this game could have been with properly balanced skills and itemization, rolling for loot, and measures to make griefing take effort....oy. But any effort on a game that's not a revenue stream would be poor business sense, especially because it could cannibalize WoW subscriptions.
 

Barrynor

Banned
It is good that Blizzard does not think the way you do. How many patches do most games get? Right... 3 or 4 if you're lucky. What patch are we at for Diablo 1? Diablo II? Starcraft?

Diablo II is a great game. It is the best Hack and Slash game there is at the moment, even though it is relatively old, and the customer support deliverd by Blizzard far outshines most other companies. We sometimes loose our perspective because of the faults we see in the system.
 
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