Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

All branches of the government can make rules backed by the force of the state.
Don't be cryptic. Just answer the questions. They're tautological. You can only be wrong by being inconsistent.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

OOOOOH, snap! Got me, Hot Shot! I was just plain wrong when I said you're such an incompetent communicator that you can't even sling mud without help. I am such a fool. You CAN do it all on your own. Mommy, WOW! You're a BIG BOY now!
Cool... I broke his brain.



 

Yaboosh

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Let me explain. Your are using law to mean that it is anything that is backed by the force of the state, and in so doing including the judiciary. You are arguing over semantics. I haven't seen Dondrei, AJ or I try to argue with what you said that the judiciary does, or the meaning of stare decisis, precedent, case law etc. except for our taking issue with the fact that you believe that they are making law. This is a semantics argument over whether or not "law" should include the interpretation/clarification of the law that the judiciary performs. It is a rather uninteresting semantics argument at that.
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

How am I being cryptic? That answer was pretty clear.
First, you didn't answer the questions. The only possible answers were "True" or "False". I wasn't looking for "pretty" clear. I was looking for absolutely and incontrovertibly clear.

Second, I still don't know whether you agree with the proposition that both legislators and judges make law. By substituting my definition of law into your answer, you leave open the possibility that you define law in a different way. Depending on your definition, "only legislators make law" and "all branches of government make rules backed by the force of the state" could both be true statements. Because of the possibility to equivocate in this way, I asked you a pair of true/false questions.

Yaboosh said:
Let me explain. Your are using law to mean that it is anything that is backed by the force of the state, and in so doing including the judiciary. You are arguing over semantics. I haven't seen Dondrei, AJ or I try to argue with what you said that the judiciary does, or the meaning of stare decisis, precedent, case law etc. except for our taking issue with the fact that you believe that they are making law. This is a semantics argument over whether or not "law" should include the interpretation/clarification of the law that the judiciary performs. It is a rather uninteresting semantics argument at that.
I assumed your response would have something to do with what semantics actually is and how my argument resembles it. I was wrong.

You think I'm arguing "semantics" because you've engaged in begging the question. I do not grant that the role of the judiciary is merely "interpretation/clarification". I am not redefining law to include "interpreting/clarifying legislature-made law". My whole point (listed many times above), is that they make entirely new law that has nothing to do with statutes passed by the legislature. Judges are not "interpreting/clarifying" when they issue opinions in the common law any more than the legislature is "interpreting/clarifying" when it passes statutes. While it's true that an additional role of the court is to interpret/clarify statutes, the court also creates its own, original law.



 
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Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Cool... I broke his brain.
I don't think many people would agree that being a sophistical troll is cool. I think people see it as a sign of immaturity, insecurity and weakness. You're a grown man, aren't you? Why don't you start acting like one?

Or you could prove my point with your next post. Choice is yours.



 

Yaboosh

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Do you have any instances of a judge issuing a decision that is not an interpretation or clarification of a statute, but is in fact an entirely new law? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I haven't cracked a legal textbook in 2-3 years and never cracked very many at all. Most of the case law I am familiar with is US Constitutional case law, and by definition these are cases dealing with existing laws and applying the Constitution to them.
 

AeroJonesy

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Second, I still don't know whether you agree with the proposition that both legislators and judges make law. By substituting my definition of law into your answer, you leave open the possibility that you define law in a different way.
So it really is a game of semantics. It took quite a roundabout route to get there. Instead of backing into the issue, why not ask "I define law as X, how do you define law?"



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

I don't think many people would agree that being a sophistical troll is cool. I think people see it as a sign of immaturity, insecurity and weakness. You're a grown man, aren't you? Why don't you start acting like one?

Or you could prove my point with your next post. Choice is yours.
You lost the argument several pages back. Unfortunately the forum doesn't have a feature that disables your post button once you're conclusively beaten, so you can keep posting forever and convince yourself you're still in the game. I can waste my time going round and round in circles or I can just give you the ridicule you deserve.

So, need a hanky?



 

buttershug

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Do you have any instances of a judge issuing a decision that is not an interpretation or clarification of a statute, but is in fact an entirely new law?
He is not talking about "laws" he is talking about "law". therefore you can't ask about a law.
Kinda like a tuna is a fish but you can use fish meal as fertilizer.

Are you guys saying that Judges have no effect on the repercussions of your actions vis a vis the law? That the legal system could have robots for judges?



 

Yaboosh

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

He is not talking about "laws" he is talking about "law". therefore you can't ask about a law.
Kinda like a tuna is a fish but you can use fish meal as fertilizer.

Are you guys saying that Judges have no effect on the repercussions of your actions vis a vis the law? That the legal system could have robots for judges?


Nah, I am almost positive that Moose and I (and AJ and Dondrei) agree with what a judge's role is in the legal system, which is my point about this simply being a semantics argument.

When you differentiate between "a law" and "law", that is a good example of the semantics being argued here.



 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

So it really is a game of semantics. It took quite a roundabout route to get there. Instead of backing into the issue, why not ask "I define law as X, how do you define law?"
Fair enough. What's your answer?



 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Do you have any instances of a judge issuing a decision that is not an interpretation or clarification of a statute, but is in fact an entirely new law? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I haven't cracked a legal textbook in 2-3 years and never cracked very many at all. Most of the case law I am familiar with is US Constitutional case law, and by definition these are cases dealing with existing laws and applying the Constitution to them.
Okay, but Dondrei is going to have to stay out of the discussion because he can't be trusted to discuss anything in good faith.

Most of the wrongs one would sue for in civil court are judged according to rules laid out in precedent, that is, case law, not statute. Now, I won't go so far as to argue that there is no statute somewhere specifying the elements of Negligence, but it is generally opinion after opinion going back hundreds of years to England that establishes that someone seeking to recover for damage caused by the negligence of another must show that he was owed a duty by the other, the other breached said duty by failing to exercise reasonable care, that the breach actually caused damages (the existence of damages being an element as well), and that the breach was the proximate cause of the damage. These elements: Duty, Breach, Cause, Damage are not law because they are specified in some statute that some legislature passed. They are law because over the centuries, judges collectively made them up and wrote them down. The state will not force anyone to compensate me for my injuries unless I establish those elements (and counter various affirmative defenses, also established by judicial opinions, not statute) in court. Alternatively, that means if I owe someone a duty (and what constitutes a duty is also not generally determined by statute, but by judicial opinion) and I breach that duty because I did not take reasonable precautions and thereby cause damage to someone, that person can sue me in civil court and when I lose, I will be forced to pay. What I did was against the law.

Now, it should be quite clear that we are not arguing semantics, that we believe that judges do fundamentally different things. Of course, as with any disagreement, this one depends on a definition. But I've asserted my definition at least 4 times already and no one has questioned it. If we agree on the definition of law(s), and I say judges make them and you say they only interpret them, then that's a legitimate disagreement, not semantics, and one about which I happen to be right.

Edit: You should note that even the Constitution itself grants the independent existence of common law, indeed, it demonstrates that the role of the legislator is often to interpret and clarify judge-made law, and not vice versa. The 7th Amendment guarantees a jury trial only on those issues that would have been tried in the common law courts. When the Bill of Rights was passed, there were two kinds of courts: courts at law and courts in equity. The kinds of cases that would have been brought in equity should not be tried before a jury. Who decided what kinds of cases were at law and in equity? Judges. And the same is true now.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Okay, but Dondrei is going to have to stay out of the discussion because he can't be trusted to discuss anything in good faith.
I think what you mean is that I can't post or you're going to wind up with a knot in your panties again.

P.S. Judicial tests and elements of judgement aren't law, they're interpretation.



 

buttershug

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Do you have any instances of a judge issuing a decision that is not an interpretation or clarification of a statute, but is in fact an entirely new law?
I don't know of any in the States. And the closest I can come in Canada is where the Supreme Court unmade a piece of legislation. But even then they invited Parlement to rewrite the legislation in such a way that it did not violate the constitution.
I would name it but don't want to spark a certain arguement.

And an interpretation or clarification of a statute can be as fundamental as an entirely new law.
(can't think of any examples though)

P.S. Judicial tests and elements of judgement aren't law, they're interpretation.

I think you meant to say either legislation or "laws".
I don't think legislation without intreptation (and enforcment) is law.



 

AeroJonesy

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

Fair enough. What's your answer?
In general, anything the state can or can't force you to do.

Or possibly the sum of the rights and obligations of a person and the rights and obligations of the state.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

What's the difference?
None - in both cases the legislative power derives ultimately from the legislature, the judiciary is merely applying it.

If the legislature believes the judiciary is in error in their interpretation, they can clarify.



 

buttershug

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

None - in both cases the legislative power derives ultimately from the legislature, the judiciary is merely applying it.

If the legislature believes the judiciary is in error in their interpretation, they can clarify.
Except it's the Judiciary that clarifies what is actually said.
The legislature saying "that's what I said but not what I meant" doesn't work because the players change.



 

Garbad_the_Weak

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Blizzard Sued By South Carolina Inmate

None - in both cases the legislative power derives ultimately from the legislature, the judiciary is merely applying it.

If the legislature believes the judiciary is in error in their interpretation, they can clarify.
Keep an eye on the prop 8 deal, and we will see which branch tells whom what they can clarify =P



 
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